Double Butted Spokes

Gig Miller said:

I recently purchased some Wheelsmith DB14 x 279 mm spokes. The length
of the butted portion on the elbow side was approx 25mm, while the
length of the butted portion on the threaded side was only 3mm above
the threads. Is this normal? It seems to me the butted lengths should
be nearly equal.

do you have structural concerns or aesthetic? structurally, most people
want butting for a slight increase in elasticity and a slight decrease
in weight. what you describe improves both.

jim beam said:

Gig Miller said:

I recently purchased some Wheelsmith DB14 x 279 mm spokes. The length
of the butted portion on the elbow side was approx 25mm, while the
length of the butted portion on the threaded side was only 3mm above
the threads. Is this normal? It seems to me the butted lengths should
be nearly equal.

do you have structural concerns or aesthetic? structurally, most people
want butting for a slight increase in elasticity and a slight decrease
in weight. what you describe improves both.

I have both structural concerns as well as aesthetic. I purchased some
285mm spokes, DB14 a few weeks ago, and the butted ends were nearly
the same length.

Gig Miller said:

jim beam said:

Gig Miller said:

I recently purchased some Wheelsmith DB14 x 279 mm spokes. The length
of the butted portion on the elbow side was approx 25mm, while the
length of the butted portion on the threaded side was only 3mm above
the threads. Is this normal? It seems to me the butted lengths should
be nearly equal.

do you have structural concerns or aesthetic? structurally, most people
want butting for a slight increase in elasticity and a slight decrease
in weight. what you describe improves both.

I have both structural concerns as well as aesthetic. I purchased some
285mm spokes, DB14 a few weeks ago, and the butted ends were nearly
the same length.

Now you know how to tell them apart if they get mingled.

Ron

Gig Miller said:

I recently purchased some Wheelsmith DB14 x 279 mm spokes. The length
of the butted portion on the elbow side was approx 25mm, while the
length of the butted portion on the threaded side was only 3mm above
the threads. Is this normal? It seems to me the butted lengths should
be nearly equal.

Thanks,
Greg

Dear Greg.

The butting on the elbow end may be more extensive because that's
where most spokes break, not down at the nipple.

In the only available test for spoke failure from 1984-5, Wheelsmith
had 76 heavily loaded spokes cycled to failure at Stanford:

http://www.duke.edu/~hpgavin/papers/HPGavin-Wheel-Paper.pdf

Of the 76 spokes, 68 (~90%) broke at the elbow. The other 8 broke at
the nipple.

Further evidence can be found in the motorcycle world, where
single-butted spokes are found, invariably butted at the elbow. This
modest trials motorcycle spoke is single-butted:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/spokes.jpg

There are also some single-butted bicycle spokes.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I think that the main reason to "re-butt" a spoke on the nipple end is
that threads work better for building with larger diameters. And to
the extent that spokes break at the thread, a wider diameter cuts down
on breakage. Neither reason requires an extended butt at the nipple.

One other reason you may be seeing differences is that it is probably
cheaper to draw spokes to one length and then cut them to different
sizes and thread afterwards. That would lead to different sized butts.

Quoted message said:

One other reason you may be seeing differences is that it is probably
cheaper to draw spokes to one length and then cut them to different
sizes and thread afterwards. That would lead to different sized butts.

Personally, I prefer a trimmer butt to a big butt.

Gig Miller said:

jim beam said:

Gig Miller said:

I recently purchased some Wheelsmith DB14 x 279 mm spokes. The length
of the butted portion on the elbow side was approx 25mm, while the
length of the butted portion on the threaded side was only 3mm above
the threads. Is this normal? It seems to me the butted lengths should
be nearly equal.

do you have structural concerns or aesthetic? structurally, most people
want butting for a slight increase in elasticity and a slight decrease
in weight. what you describe improves both.

I have both structural concerns as well as aesthetic. I purchased some
285mm spokes, DB14 a few weeks ago, and the butted ends were nearly
the same length.

your concerns are misplaced - there are no structural issues with some
factional percentage increase in elasticity and an even smaller
fractional decrease in weight.

as for your aesthetic sensibilities, you're on your own.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Gig Miller said:

I recently purchased some Wheelsmith DB14 x 279 mm spokes. The length
of the butted portion on the elbow side was approx 25mm, while the
length of the butted portion on the threaded side was only 3mm above
the threads. Is this normal? It seems to me the butted lengths should
be nearly equal.

Thanks,
Greg

Dear Greg.

The butting on the elbow end may be more extensive because that's
where most spokes break, not down at the nipple.

No, no, no, no, no.
The butt on the threaded end is shorter because that is
where the spoke is cut to length.

--
Michael Press

Gig Miller said:

I recently purchased some Wheelsmith DB14 x 279 mm spokes. The length
of the butted portion on the elbow side was approx 25mm, while the
length of the butted portion on the threaded side was only 3mm above
the threads. Is this normal? It seems to me the butted lengths should
be nearly equal.

Spoke makers swadge blanks then thread and trim them to order so the
butt varies at the threaded end a bit.

c.f. seat post internal diameter - makers cut several sizes from each blank.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Gig Miller said:

I recently purchased some Wheelsmith DB14 x 279 mm spokes. The length
of the butted portion on the elbow side was approx 25mm, while the
length of the butted portion on the threaded side was only 3mm above
the threads. Is this normal? It seems to me the butted lengths should
be nearly equal.

Spoke makers swadge blanks

not all of them, only some. d.t. swage, but sapim draw, and wheelsmith
grind, then polish. they are all very different forming processes and
it's wrong to confuse the terms. "butted" is the correct generic term.
please don't perpetuate the jobstian mistake.

Quoted message said:

then thread and trim them to order so the
butt varies at the threaded end a bit.

c.f. seat post internal diameter - makers cut several sizes from each
blank.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One other reason you may be seeing differences is that it is probably
cheaper to draw spokes to one length and then cut them to different
sizes and thread afterwards. That would lead to different sized butts.

still me said:

Personally, I prefer a trimmer butt to a big butt.

me too!
http://my.core.com/~karendubois/kmd1.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"Ecce signum!" - Falstaff

jim beam said:

not all of them, only some. d.t. swage, but sapim draw, and wheelsmith
grind, then polish. they are all very different forming processes and
it's wrong to confuse the terms. "butted" is the correct generic term.
please don't perpetuate the jobstian mistake.

According to Wheelsmith's website, their butted spokes are not ground
but rather forged.

http://www.wheelsmith.com/index_files/spoketech.htm (scroll to the
middle of the page).
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
Phone: 305-273-4440
http://www.businesscycles.com
-------------------------------

John Dacey said:

"Ecce signum!" - Falstaff

jim beam said:

not all of them, only some. d.t. swage, but sapim draw, and wheelsmith
grind, then polish. they are all very different forming processes and
it's wrong to confuse the terms. "butted" is the correct generic term.
please don't perpetuate the jobstian mistake.

According to Wheelsmith's website, their butted spokes are not ground
but rather forged.

http://www.wheelsmith.com/index_files/spoketech.htm (scroll to the
middle of the page).

i think their copy writer is, er, "confused". i've seen asahi spokes in
their unpolished state, and those are /definitely/ butted by grinding.
since wheelsmith are made by asahi, it doesn't take much to join the
dots. especially since they have all the exact same features apart from
being polished.

Gig Miller said:

I recently purchased some Wheelsmith DB14 x 279 mm spokes. The length
of the butted portion on the elbow side was approx 25mm, while the
length of the butted portion on the threaded side was only 3mm above
the threads. Is this normal? It seems to me the butted lengths should
be nearly equal.

Thanks,
Greg

I'm thinking they were recut to that length, reducing the butted
length. No big deal in terms of performance.

"Splendide mendax" - Horace

jim beam said:

John Dacey wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

According to Wheelsmith's website, their butted spokes are not ground
but rather forged.

http://www.wheelsmith.com/index_files/spoketech.htm (scroll to the
middle of the page).

Quoted message said:

i think their copy writer is, er, "confused". i've seen asahi spokes in
their unpolished state, and those are /definitely/ butted by grinding.
since wheelsmith are made by asahi, it doesn't take much to join the
dots. especially since they have all the exact same features apart from
being polished.

For them who've elected not to follow the above link to Wheelsmith's
page, please note that a section dealing with their double butted
spokes reads in part:
"The center sections are forged rather than cut, ground or drawn to
smaller diameter giving them greater strength and uniformity."

Such an unequivocal denial that they're ground doesn't sound like the
sort of statement that might be concocted by an over-eager copy writer
nor one that would be overlooked by those at Wheelsmith charged with
approving the contents of the company website. Why would they
deliberately lie about the process if it could easily be proved
otherwise?

That Asahi might fashion some butted spokes by grinding (taking your
word for it) for product sold under their own label doesn't preclude
them from having the expertise to forge the butts for spokes they
fabricate for Wheelsmith.
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
Phone: 305-273-4440
http://www.businesscycles.com
-------------------------------

John Dacey said:

"Splendide mendax" - Horace

jim beam said:

John Dacey wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

According to Wheelsmith's website, their butted spokes are not ground
but rather forged.

http://www.wheelsmith.com/index_files/spoketech.htm (scroll to the
middle of the page).

Quoted message said:

i think their copy writer is, er, "confused". i've seen asahi spokes in
their unpolished state, and those are /definitely/ butted by grinding.
since wheelsmith are made by asahi, it doesn't take much to join the
dots. especially since they have all the exact same features apart from
being polished.

For them who've elected not to follow the above link to Wheelsmith's
page, please note that a section dealing with their double butted
spokes reads in part:
"The center sections are forged rather than cut, ground or drawn to
smaller diameter giving them greater strength and uniformity."

Such an unequivocal denial that they're ground doesn't sound like the
sort of statement that might be concocted by an over-eager copy writer
nor one that would be overlooked by those at Wheelsmith charged with
approving the contents of the company website. Why would they
deliberately lie about the process if it could easily be proved
otherwise?

i have no idea. why do people claim they can eliminate metal fatigue in
stainless steel with no endurance limit? but it's probably not
deliberate, simply the product of a misunderstanding. the spoke heads
are "forged" [more accurately, "upset"].

Quoted message said:

That Asahi might fashion some butted spokes by grinding (taking your
word for it) for product sold under their own label doesn't preclude
them from having the expertise to forge the butts for spokes they
fabricate for Wheelsmith.

they may indeed, but inspection doesn't reveal any evidence of such a
process being used. compare d.t. spokes, sapim and wheelsmith with a
sufficiently strong magnifier. spokes that are drawn or hammered show
distinctive marks evidencing each production process - as you will see.
wheelsmith don't. they are featureless - just like you'd expect from
something with the marks polished out. and polishing something that has
been drawn or hammered makes no financial sense since finish quality is
already sufficient.

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

jim beam said:

they may indeed, but inspection doesn't reveal any evidence of such a
process being used. compare d.t. spokes, sapim and wheelsmith with a
sufficiently strong magnifier. spokes that are drawn or hammered show
distinctive marks evidencing each production process - as you will see.
wheelsmith don't. they are featureless - just like you'd expect from
something with the marks polished out. and polishing something that has
been drawn or hammered makes no financial sense since finish quality is
already sufficient.

So let me understand your reasoning: since Wheelsmith's butted spokes
have a finish that's better than you think they need to be, that's
proof positive that they're lying about (or worse, that they don't
understand themselves) the fabrication process?
-------------------------------
John Dacey
Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
Since 1983
Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
Phone: 305-273-4440
http://www.businesscycles.com
-------------------------------

John Dacey said:

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

jim beam said:

they may indeed, but inspection doesn't reveal any evidence of such a
process being used. compare d.t. spokes, sapim and wheelsmith with a
sufficiently strong magnifier. spokes that are drawn or hammered show
distinctive marks evidencing each production process - as you will see.
wheelsmith don't. they are featureless - just like you'd expect from
something with the marks polished out. and polishing something that has
been drawn or hammered makes no financial sense since finish quality is
already sufficient.

So let me understand your reasoning: since Wheelsmith's butted spokes
have a finish that's better than you think they need to be, that's
proof positive that they're lying about (or worse, that they don't
understand themselves) the fabrication process?

at best, that's too simplistic. at worst, that's contrived and
misleading. so here's what i suggest: provide samples of all 3 spokes
to a metallurgy lab and have then do the metallography for you. the
microstructure will reveal all.

you can also try the magnet test, but that's not only more subjective to
the tester, but it's non-definitive. should give you a rough idea
though. use a strong magnet like one out an old hard drive. [cold
worked "forged" austenite of certain grades becomes martensitic, thus
more magnetic - the center sections should be more magnetic if formed by
a hammering or drawing technique that their description implies.]

John Dacey said:

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc.

jim beam said:

they may indeed, but inspection doesn't reveal any evidence of such a
process being used. compare d.t. spokes, sapim and wheelsmith with a
sufficiently strong magnifier. spokes that are drawn or hammered show
distinctive marks evidencing each production process - as you will see.
wheelsmith don't. they are featureless - just like you'd expect from
something with the marks polished out. and polishing something that has
been drawn or hammered makes no financial sense since finish quality is
already sufficient.

So let me understand your reasoning: since Wheelsmith's butted spokes
have a finish that's better than you think they need to be, that's
proof positive that they're lying about (or worse, that they don't
understand themselves) the fabrication process?

I emailed wheelsmith about this on Friday. This is the response that I got
today:

"Hello Gary -
Thank you for your interest in our product.
Wheelsmith Spokes are not ground. Our process of "Swaging Spokes" is
actually a hammering process to create the swaged or butted section of
the spoke. There is no grinding that occurs.
Thank you
Laura
Hayes Bicycle"

I would have been more happy to get something from one of their engineers,
but given jim beam's lack of credibility, I'm not inclined to pursue this
any further.

On another note, I don't think wheelsmith uses Asahi blanks anymore. I
base that on this message posted on a listserve:

"The old owner of Wheelsmith was retiring and sold us the business. We
relocated it from Big Timber, MT to Milwaukee, WI in December 2006.

As for what spokes came from whom - The 14g non-butted spokes (SS-14)
were made in their entirety by Wheelsmith with machinery purchased
from Asahi in Japan using the exact same raw materials. The AE-14,
DH-13, all 15g spokes were made by Asahi for Wheelsmith. DB-14 were
sometimes bought complete from Asahi, but usually were made from
blanks shipped to the US. Wheelsmith had the machines to make DB-14's
in Montana but rarely used it. We have produced some SS-14 spokes over
the past 2 months here in Milwaukee.

After we purchased Wheelsmith in September, Asahi informed us they
were closing down production. We've recently sent our spoke maker to
Japan to train at Asahi for 3 weeks - this is after spending 2 weeks
training at Montana. While he was there we also purchased all of
Asahi's machinery and will be moving that to Milwaukee in a few short
months.

What does this mean? All Wheelsmith spokes will soon be made in
Milwaukee. Same machinery, Same raw materials, Same techinques and the
Same attention to detail. Our spoke maker is a very dedicated
individual with a strong background in high-performance steel
manufacturing. We are very confident that Wheelsmith spokes will
continue to be the best in the industry."

http://tinyurl.com/2w449j

============================================

Obviously, that doesn't speak to wheelsmith's butting method and I only
offer it as clarification of wheelsmith's relation to Asahi.