Doping -- Le Monde editorial

AMG said:

For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York Times -- a fairly
well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum newspaper (rather than a tabloid, for example), but
not particularly a sports rag. I don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes
to grind with the TdF.

I'm sorry but with the way Le Monde throws out the accusation of doping so easily Le Monde is more
on the lines of the NY Post, or at least the Blair written articles of the NY Times.

Lindsay
----------------------------
"One of the annoying things about believing in free will and individual responsibility is the
difficulty of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And when you do find somebody, it's
remarkable how often his picture turns up on your driver's license."

P.J. O'Rourke

"AMG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that the TdF may not be free of
doping, despite the extensive urine and blood testing that is now performed under the direction of
the UCI. While not an accusation, the article notes that the average speed of stage winners this
year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year preceding the Festina affair,
when EPO use was presumably widespread.

The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate conditions were ideal this year,
and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or (2) New techniques for evading the chemical
controls have been put into play. The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves
are not disputed, since they are essentially a public record.

For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York Times -- a fairly
well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum newspaper

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

Quoted message said:

(rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports rag.

That is true.

Quoted message said:

I don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to grind with the TdF.

I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous axes to grind with the U.S.
government, U.S. private sector companies, and Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were
one of the main forces behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

Quoted message said:

The article (in French) is available by going to www.lemonde.fr. In the box at upper left entitled
Rechercher, type in "dopage" (no quotes needed) and click the arrow. On the list of articles that
comes up, look for "Un Tour trop vite?" Right now it seems to be the second article listed, and
for the moment, at least, it is available for free. I don't know of an English version, but I know
there are at least a few francophones out there who might find this of interest...

------------

"AMG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate conditions were ideal this year,
and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or (2) New techniques for evading the chemical
controls have been put into play. The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves
are not disputed, since they are essentially a public record.

How about better equipment, better training regimens, and better tactics?

No wonder the French can't win anymore.

M.

"AMG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York Times -- a fairly
well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum

newspaper

Quoted message said:

(rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports rag. I don't know its history
well enough to know whether it has any axes to

grind

Quoted message said:

with the TdF.

Whatever its position on the political spectrum, I'd say Le Monde is well-respected in the sense
that the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal are each well-respected. However, it does have
axes to grind and some of those axes have a long, long history. The group that owns Le Monde also
owns the Midi Libre which has ended its sponsorship of the eponymous stage race. The reasons given
were partly financial, partly "ethical."

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

The NY Times left wing? Bwahahaha! Left of Genghis Kahn, you mean.

Ed-D said:

"AMG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that the TdF may not be free of
doping, despite the extensive urine and blood testing that is now performed under the direction
of the UCI. While not an accusation, the article notes that the average speed of stage winners
this year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year preceding the Festina
affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.

The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate conditions were ideal this year,
and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or (2) New techniques for evading the chemical
controls have been put into play. The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves
are not disputed, since they are essentially a public record.

For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York Times -- a fairly
well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum newspaper

Quoted message said:

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

Actually, not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports rag.

Quoted message said:

That is true.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to grind with the TdF.

Quoted message said:

I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous axes to grind with the
U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken,
they were one of the main forces behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

What has this to do with the content of the article?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The article (in French) is available by going to www.lemonde.fr. In the box at upper left
entitled Rechercher, type in "dopage" (no quotes needed) and click the arrow. On the list of
articles that comes up, look for "Un Tour trop vite?" Right now it seems to be the second article
listed, and for the moment, at least, it is available for free. I don't know of an English
version, but I know there are at least a few francophones out there who might find this of
interest...

------------

Le Monde is the "intellectual" newspaper, in the sense that French society is extremely polarised:
people either read Le Monde or L'Equipe but not both. As far as I can tell, the only interest Le
Monde has in bike racing is to continually insinuate that all bike racers are dopers, including
completely erroneous reasoning, such as finishing articles with: "Armstrong's cancer, whose presence
has still not been explained." Or course, anyone with any knowledge of epidemeology knows that you
can't explain any one single cancer, except for a few exceptions like the one you get from asbestos
or plutonium.

As for the increased racing speed compared to previous years, it's clear that, apart from good
weather, the UCI rankings, internationalisation of the race, and no more "patrons" are all
responsable. In particular, in the old Hinault day you went 30 kph at the start, or else Hinault
would seek you out and make sure you got dropped. Also, riders realise that winning a stage will
make their whole career, so you now see the race starting from the gun, which almost never happened,
even in 1999. The first mountain stage this year literally started this way, with an attack as soon
as the start was given, whereas in 1999, it was a procession for the first climb, with Cipollini at
the front for the whole climb. I bet that they didn't mention any of this in the article.

I've having to say all this stuff all the time recently, and I'm getting pretty annoyed by it.

-ilan

"Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed-D

Quoted message said:

I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has

numerous axes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Americans in general. If I'm not mistaken, they were one of the

main forces

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

What has this to do with the content of the article?

The article was an editorial. As such it is almost expected to reflect the biases of the writers or
the paper as a whole.

JT

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"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"AMG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

TdF may not be free of doping, despite the extensive urine and blood

testing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that is now performed under the direction of the UCI. While not an accusation, the article notes
that the average speed of stage winners

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year

preceding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.

The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate

conditions

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

were ideal this year, and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or

(2)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into

play.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The official TdF line is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not disputed, since they are
essentially a public record.

For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York Times -- a fairly
well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum

newspaper

Quoted message said:

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

Quoted message said:

(rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports rag.

That is true.

Quoted message said:

I don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to

grind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with the TdF.

I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous

axes

Quoted message said:

to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and Americans in general. If I'm
not mistaken, they were one of the main

forces

Quoted message said:

behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

Of course, Le Monde must be left-wing or anti-American or both, because it cant be true what it's
writing. Sure, there are doping products that cannot be detected, but it's impossible to imagine
that professional riders would use it. They all dead against it (except Pantani and Rumsas of
course). It's just a coïncidence that two years ago the police discovered that 37 riders were in
possession of illicit drugs and that none of them had tested positive. And what about that average
speed? Must have been the heat. It's true that before the Tour of 1999 Leblanc was expecting that
now that the riders were "clean" that the average speed would drop from 39,98 to 37, and that it
rose to 40,276 instead, but what knows Leblanc about racing? Besides, although he is politically a
right-winger, he's French, so he can't be trusted anyway.

Benjo Maso

"Rico X. Partay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

The NY Times left wing? Bwahahaha! Left of Genghis Kahn, you mean.

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that the Times is left-of-center.

"Clovis Lark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed-D said:

"AMG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The French journal Le Monde ran an editorial (July 27) suggesting that

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

TdF may not be free of doping, despite the extensive urine and blood

testing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that is now performed under the direction of the UCI. While not an accusation, the article
notes that the average speed of stage winners

this

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

year is the fastest on record, even faster than in 1997, the year

preceding

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Festina affair, when EPO use was presumably widespread.

The piece goes on to suggest two possible reasons: (1) Climate conditions were ideal this year,
and the riders also benefited from tailwinds, or

(2)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

New techniques for evading the chemical controls have been put into play. The official TdF line
is apparently (1). The speeds themselves are not disputed, since they are essentially a public
record.

For perspective, Le Monde is something along the lines of the New York Times -- a fairly
well-respected middle-of-the-political-spectrum

newspaper

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

Actually, not.

well if you say so....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(rather than a tabloid, for example), but not particularly a sports rag.

Quoted message said:

That is true.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't know its history well enough to know whether it has any axes to

grind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with the TdF.

Quoted message said:

I don't know about this either but I do know that Le Monde has numerous

axes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to grind with the U.S. government, U.S. private sector companies, and Americans in general. If
I'm not mistaken, they were one of the main

forces

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

behind some of the allegations surrounding Lance Armstrong.

What has this to do with the content of the article?

Besides the fact that it is hardly unusual for Le Monde to try to taint the achievements of
Americans everywhere? Well, nothing I guess....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The article (in French) is available by going to www.lemonde.fr. In the

box

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at upper left entitled Rechercher, type in "dopage" (no quotes needed)

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

click the arrow. On the list of articles that comes up, look for "Un Tour trop vite?" Right now
it seems to be the second article listed, and for

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

moment, at least, it is available for free. I don't know of an English version, but I know
there are at least a few francophones out there who might find this of interest...

------------

Sponsors pay big bucks and want a stage win or their name mentions 100s of times in a breakaway. I'd
like to see a chart of when the number and distance of breakaways in the last 30 years. The get away
from kilometer 0.

Le Monde has several articles recently insinuating doping with absolutely no links to back it up
other than this idea that they're going so fast that they must be doping (overlooking about 20 other
cumulative effects that could explain faster speeds.) It's quite tiresome.

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Le Monde is the "intellectual" newspaper, in the sense that French society is extremely polarised:
people either read Le Monde or L'Equipe but not both. As far as I can tell, the only interest Le
Monde has in bike racing is to continually insinuate that all bike racers are dopers, including
completely erroneous reasoning, such as finishing articles with: "Armstrong's cancer, whose
presence has still not been explained." Or course, anyone with any knowledge of epidemeology knows
that you can't explain any one single cancer, except for a few exceptions like the one you get
from asbestos or plutonium.

As for the increased racing speed compared to previous years, it's clear that, apart from good
weather, the UCI rankings,

internationalisation

Quoted message said:

of the race, and no more "patrons" are all responsable. In particular, in the old Hinault day you
went 30 kph at the start, or else Hinault would seek you out and make sure you got dropped. Also,
riders realise that winning a stage will make their whole career, so you now see the race starting
from the gun, which almost never happened, even in 1999. The first mountain stage this year
literally started this way, with an attack as soon as the start was given, whereas in 1999, it was
a procession for the first climb, with Cipollini at the front for the whole climb. I bet that they
didn't mention any of this in the article.

I've having to say all this stuff all the time recently, and I'm getting pretty annoyed by it.

-ilan

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Ilan Vardi said:

As for the increased racing speed compared to previous years, it's clear that, apart from good
weather, the UCI rankings, internationalisation of the race, and no more "patrons" are all
responsable.

Yeah. I think there are more early breaks by obscure riders on the flat stages in an effort to gain
publicity and perhaps a stage win. The publicity value of a stage win has gone up dramatically in
recent years, which makes more riders and managers willing to risk it. As a result the leading teams
are riding more tempo early in the race to control gaps, and the pack really kicks into gear in the
last 50 km as several sprinter teams chase to catch breaks before the finish and set up their guy.

It's not so much that the maximum performance has increased as that the riders are working harder
for more of the race.

In article said:

"Rico X. Partay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

The NY Times left wing? Bwahahaha! Left of Genghis Kahn, you mean.

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that the Times is
left-of-center.

Pretty much any organization the uses reason will end up being left-of-center.

KP

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In article said:

"Rico X. Partay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

actually Le Monde is pretty left wing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that the Times is
left-of-center.

"Well-known" thanks to the relentness campaign of the right-wing. Meaningless nonetheless.

"Ken Prager" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pretty much any organization the uses reason will end up being left-of-center.

You know what's funny?

NASCAR only turns left.

Dat durn Dail Urnhard shore was fast.

<place hand over heart>

<hang head>

Where one a dem durn syclists? I gots to run won a dem off da rode!

In article <[email hidden]>, "Kurgan Gringioni"

Quoted message said:

"Ken Prager" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pretty much any organization the uses reason will end up being left-of-center.

You know what's funny?

NASCAR only turns left.

Dat durn Dail Urnhard shore was fast.

<place hand over heart>

<hang head>

Where one a dem durn syclists? I gots to run won a dem off da rode!

I have a friend who is reasonably intelligent (he has an MD) but strangely enough is a NASCAR fan. I
asked him once what was up with the "3" sticker and here was his reply...

Quoted message said:

KP,

Actually, the 3 sticker you have been seeing represents the car number of the late Dale Earnhardt.
In NASCAR vernacular drivers and teams are often discussed by simply using the number of the car
as a description for the driver, the racin' team and even for a lifestyle. For example, a
conversation at the Talledega Alabama speedway might go something like this:

"You know BillyBob that 3 car used to ride up under that wimp 24 car harder than granpa used to
ride into your cracker ass in the trailer"

Well known for his aggressive style of driving, Earnhardt was nicknamed the "Intimidator". It is
not surprising that you have been nearly run down by fans with 3 car stickers. This type of
Earnhardt fan is no doubt expressing loyalty to his fallen hero by displaying the aggressive style
of driving which made Dale famous.

A bike is meant to have horsepower and make a lot of noise, if it does not, then it is insulting
to everthing that makes this country great (ie. Bud, Ford Chevy or Dodge, Harley Davidson, Smith
and Wesson). Upon encountering anything that is "counterculture", like pedaling a bike, the 3 car
fan should immediately "put the hammer down" and rid the country of another sissy californian like
that wimp Gordon.

I hope this has been helpful to explain some of these close encounters you have had.

Best Regards,

JS

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"Ken Prager" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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In article said:

"Rico X. Partay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

> actually Le Monde is pretty left wing. So too is the NY Times.

The NY Times left wing? Bwahahaha! Left of Genghis Kahn, you mean.

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that the Times is
left-of-center.

Pretty much any organization the uses reason will end up being left-of-center.

Oh great. The insinuation being that only liberals use reason. I get it.

Quoted message said:

KP

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"Arthur Ogus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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In article said:

"Rico X. Partay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

> actually Le Monde is pretty left wing.
>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not sure what that is supposed to mean, but it's common knowledge that the Times is
left-of-center.

"Well-known" thanks to the relentness campaign of the right-wing.

uh, no actually that's not why. Paris has something like six or seven daily newspapers, ranging from
Le Figaro (which is considered conservative) to l'Humanite (Communist). Le Monde is definitely on
the left of that spectrum.

Quoted message said:

Meaningless nonetheless.