Doping - Europe vs US

JRMDC said:

This forum has participants from both sides of the Atlantic. What do you think of this view, expressed by a Canadian (if that matters to anyone):

[font=Verdana][font=Verdana]And here is where the cultural divide between Europe and North America plays out. Americans in particular see cycling as a healthy activity and Lance Armstrong as a beacon of good living and hope. So doping is a big deal within that idealized view. Most Europeans however, see cycling as a mode of transportation and in the case of fans, a form of entertainment - period. The courts and press are full of indignation but the fans just shrug and show up by the millions at the major races.[/font][/font]

The full letter can be found on Velonews at:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10149.0.html

I can't say about Europe because other than my fine European friends on this forum, I don't know any European cycling fans. As for Americans, I would say that the vast, vast majority believe that there is not a significant and pervasive doping problem in professional cycling.

tcklyde said:

As for Americans, I would say that the vast, vast majority believe that there is not a significant and pervasive doping problem in professional cycling.

I agree, but that majority is shrinking with each doping revelation. I have believed it was pervasive for a while, and the latest news just reinforces that thought.

tcklyde said:

I can't say about Europe because other than my fine European friends on this forum, I don't know any European cycling fans. As for Americans, I would say that the vast, vast majority believe that there is not a significant and pervasive doping problem in professional cycling.

yea, most people who aren't into cycling like i am find it unbelieveable and impossible that lance could have doped. maybe there is a level of ignorance or denial or a combination of the two, i'm not sure. but when you follow cycling on a consistent basis and you hear reports week after week about people getting caught you begin to think that maybe a lot of these athletes actually are doing it.

Millions of Americans like "pro" wrestling-nothing natural about that sport. It is seen as entertainment and doping by the wrestlers is ignored.

My coach has worked with riders and teams for 20+ years, in Europe and in America, and with American teams like 7-11 and Motorola. The majority of American riders see cycling as a sport, and themselves as sportsmen, and sportsmen are less likely to see the values and ethics of doping/cheating as acceptable.

In Europe there is a common attitude that cycling is a job and one does what one must to keep their job and get their paycheck. So, similar to the truck driver who takes amphetamines to allow himself more time driving, doping for a cyclist just doing his job is no different (in their mind). Also, to them the possible dangers of doping are not different from the dangers of their career alternatives, like driving a truck or working in a factory.

i got into an argument with a girl i know that is a "fan" of lance armstrong. of course, she doesn't know sh$t about cycling. couldn't name a single other race that the TDF, and doesn't even know what EPO is. but of course she had no problem tearing into me for even considering the possibility that lance could have been on the junk.

she said, "if you're a true fan, then you believe in them no matter what." ummmm....well...i still admire lances accomplishments. but since it seems the whole effing peleton is one big blood-doping mass, it would be stupid of me to find the idea that mebbe lance did as well inconcievable.

" "if you're a true fan, then you believe in them no matter what.""

hahah, stupid chick logic.

EvilJediJ said:

" "if you're a true fan, then you believe in them no matter what.""

hahah, stupid chick logic.

No, stupid logic in general, comes from all sides, inaccurate to attribute to one gender. And it comes in multiple applications; here in the US, there are a considerable number of people who say that during warfare (when the situation is critical, i.e. true fan), then you unconditionally support (believe in) the President, no matter what.

🙁

And it's just an extension or variation of the logic that says unless there is sufficient volume of evidence to convince any court in the world a rider has doped, we should believe that a rider does not dope.

I was a true fan of Heras... Sadly, I can not assert with confidence that Hincapie does not dope...

You know, actually, one can look at this in reverse. One can say that "true fan," or "true fanatic," in fact IS someone who believes, no matter what. The point being that none of us should be a fanatic in support of any rider in the peloton.

WarrenG said:

The majority of American riders see cycling as a sport, and themselves as sportsmen, and sportsmen are less likely to see the values and ethics of doping/cheating as acceptable.

Yes, you can see fine examples of that in the American baseballers. No doping there.
And the athletes like Marion Jones, Carl Lewis, Flo-Jo, CJ Hunter etc.
(Why is it that essentially all successful athletes coming from the Santa Monica track club suddenly develop acne and need to get braces on their teeth? Couldn't possibly be because they are using anabolic steroids +/- growth hormone. Athletes are too ethical for that.)

It is ridiculous to generalise this by nationality.
What is comes down to is the money involved.
If it is amateur racing, people are very unlikely to dope.
If there is millions of dollars in earnings and prize money, people will dope. Guaranteed.

I think it depends on how you view cycling, not what country you come from. For myself, if I'm watching some sport like football (grid iron), then I usually have a beer in my hand and could care less whether the players are doped to their gills. They make so much money to the point of being ridiculous I just can't really take the sport seriously (and I played grid iron through high school by the way).

Cycling to me is different. I ride to stay in shape, but more for the pure pleasure of it. Its somthing magical to be on a bike on a back country road with your buds going at it. When I see people treating it like a job where you do whatever it takes to get more dollars, then it bothers me.

I know there must be doping in every sport, some of which run so deep I just don't care about the sport anymore. Cycling isn't (wasn't) one of those. I still cling to the hope that my favorite riders are clean and are their racing for the pure pleasure of it and the dollars are secondary.

By the way I just got this month's issue of 'Bicycling' magazine. It has a lengthy section on Dave Z. and Floyd and how close they are going back to their days on USPS. Dave Z. and Floyd take turns interviewing each other. Its absolutely histerical. They obviously love what they do, and I know their are many others who still love the sport as well.

patch70 said:

Yes, you can see fine examples of that in the American baseballers.

I was referring to the cyclists and the pervasive culture among the American pros.

Different sports, different cultures.

WarrenG said:

I was referring to the cyclists and the pervasive culture among the American pros.

Different sports, different cultures.

I am sure that baseballers see themselves as sportsmen too but I get your point.

Are you suggesting that the majority of European riders dope and the majority of US riders don't dope?

With a big generalization

Strenght doping is/was more american (it's a matter of sports e.g. baseball, athletic fast disciplines..., GH first users were americans), endurance doping is/was more european matter (first blood doping studies were italians).
But "new" doping like IGF1 or "prototype" products have no geographic major use. The best athletes have fast resource to new products, no matter where they live/come from.
Who thinks PRO cycling is not doped, is simply blind, but this is not a reason to not cheer for these superhuman athletes (doping or not); if they could choose they'd like to run dope free.

Rob81 said:

With a big generalization

Strenght doping is/was more american (it's a matter of sports e.g. baseball, athletic fast disciplines..., GH first users were americans), endurance doping is/was more european matter (first blood doping studies were italians).
But "new" doping like IGF1 or "prototype" products have no geographic major use. The best athletes have fast resource to new products, no matter where they live/come from.
Who thinks PRO cycling is not doped, is simply blind, but this is not a reason to not cheer for these superhuman athletes (doping or not); if they could choose they'd like to run dope free.

Many of the doping techniques used today had their start back in Germany. {Eastern Bloc] I was told once after the Eastern Germans started spreading out they brought with them many new techniques that still were in developement.

I know 'blood doping' was used by the Americans in the early 80's. And the rumor of it's American source was a European.

Doping knows no national boundries. What country has not had it's share of sporting dope?

Genuine cycling fans on either side of the Atlantic have mostly the same views on doping. It's among the general public that you see the big difference.

I live in Ireland and when someone hears that I cycle as a sport, I can guarantee that within a minute that person will make a crack about drugs (either before or after asking if I shave my legs). I was on a ride a few weeks ago and needed the toilet. I popped into a country pub and when I came back out again (I was there a while.....don't ask :eek: ), the barman asked me what I'd been taking in the toilet....all the other customers fell around laughing. The general attitude among the public here is that cycling is dirty. When I lived in France, the attitude was the same. Still doesn't stop people turning out to enjoy the spectacle though and most would accept that to compete in the TdF or a similar race, you need 'something' extra. I think many in the US find this ambivalent attitude confusing. On this forum you often see people asking 'How can the French cheer for Virenque?'. The answer is that they never really clung to the belief he was clean in the first place. To be a cycling fan means accepting that ambivalence.
In contrast, from travelling to the US for work and having many American colleagues, I know that when I mention that I cycle, their eyes light up and they say 'Wow that's really great', and then they show me their Livestrong bands.

Tonto said:

I know that when I mention that I cycle, their eyes light up and they say 'Wow that's really great', and then they show me their Livestrong bands.

hahahaha....that's too funny. i don't wear mine anymore since everybody wears/wore them, including chain-smoking, burger-eating fatties.

patch70 said:

Are you suggesting that the majority of European riders dope and the majority of US riders don't dope?

I wouldn't say the majority of Euros do because I don't know, but as an example, one of the big reasons my coach came from Italy to America was the difference in prevailing attitude about doping. Having said that, he has worked with some very good Italian riders who don't/didn't dope.

It is not possible for every rider to be good without cheating, but it is possible for some riders to be good without cheating.

cheapie said:

hahahaha....that's too funny. i don't wear mine anymore since everybody wears/wore them, including chain-smoking, burger-eating fatties.

Yeah mine is now holding a bunch of pens and pencils together 😄

WarrenG said:

It is not possible for every rider to be good without cheating, but it is possible for some riders to be good without cheating.

Sure. But my opinion is that anyone in the top 20 of a Grand Tour is very, very likely to be doped. Based on that, I would be totally blown away to learn that the best doped talent could not beat a clean Lance in 7 years.

wolfix said:

Many of the doping techniques used today had their start back in Germany. {Eastern Bloc] I was told once after the Eastern Germans started spreading out they brought with them many new techniques that still were in developement.

I know 'blood doping' was used by the Americans in the early 80's. And the rumor of it's American source was a European.

Doping knows no national boundries. What country has not had it's share of sporting dope?

Doping knows no national borders.

But yet you state that doping originated in East Germany!

The blood doping that you refer to in the 1980's in the USA was prevalent at the Los Angeles Olympic Games.
Alexi Grewal, Mork Gorski admitted their guilt in this respect.
Chris Carmichael was manager of that particular team.

East Germany did have a State run system of doping - that was used to tie in the ideology that Communism was better in all aspects, including sport.

But other nations sporting federations operated doping programs : the Finns atheletics teams did in the 1970's/80's.
Some Italian athletes were caught doping.