Donovan: About Hills

Dally said:

Today I went outside and did an 8 minute warm-up then tackled the

hill

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with a stop-watch. It took me 50 seconds to run up it - mainly on my

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toes - and about 1:10 to walk down it. I probably could have jogged

at

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least part of the way down but I was trying to fully recover for the
next attempt. I made it up the hill six times, then jogged a quarter

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mile to cool down and came inside and feel like throwing up. I was
outside about 25 minutes total. I think I need a nap.

Am I really supposed to be able to do that hill 10 times? Gads. Or

is

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the 10 to 20 minutes INCLUDING the recovery minute? In other words,
doing this hill 6 times for 12 minutes of intervals is in the right

range?

If you're going all out (100% maximum heart rate), then probably not. I
think Donovan meant VO2 pace (94 to 98% MHR). It sounds like you're
doing repetitions rather than intervals. There is a difference.

tkb

Dally said:

Today I went outside and did an 8 minute warm-up then tackled the hill
with a stop-watch. It took me 50 seconds to run up it - mainly on my
toes - and about 1:10 to walk down it. I probably could have jogged at
least part of the way down but I was trying to fully recover for the
next attempt. I made it up the hill six times, then jogged a quarter
mile to cool down and came inside and feel like throwing up. I was
outside about 25 minutes total. I think I need a nap.

Am I really supposed to be able to do that hill 10 times? Gads. Or is
the 10 to 20 minutes INCLUDING the recovery minute? In other words,
doing this hill 6 times for 12 minutes of intervals is in the right range?

The 10 to 20 minutes doesn't include recovery, so I'd count that as 5
minutes, which is a little on the short side. But then, you're doing very
little milage. This should be obvious, but they'll be easier if you slow
down going up the hill. I don't know how fast you're going up though, or how
steep the grade is, so this may or may not be feasible.

Your best bet for increasing the volume in this workout would be to do
longer reps, not more of them. For example, if you include 50m before the
hill and 50m after, that will make each rep about 1:20 instead of 50 seconds.
Though it may seem counterintuitive to include flat terrain in a hill
workout, it's nice to be familiar with the transition in grades. Or you could
find a longer hill with a gentler grade.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

TenKBabe said:

If you're going all out (100% maximum heart rate), then probably not. I
think Donovan meant VO2 pace (94 to 98% MHR). It sounds like you're
doing repetitions rather than intervals. There is a difference.

Yes, that guideline is appropriate for longer reps or intervals. But I
also pointed to the principle that you generally reduce total volume as
intensity increases, which usually means that shorter reps means less
total volume.

Examples I gave in my earlier post were 5 reps of 2 minutes duration,
and 3 reps of 5 minutes duration. Though I didn't say it in that post,
applying that principle, you'd expect even less volume if the reps were
50 seconds duration. I wouldn't recommend reps this short though.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

TenKBabe said:

If you're going all out (100% maximum heart rate), then probably not. I
think Donovan meant VO2 pace (94 to 98% MHR). It sounds like you're
doing repetitions rather than intervals. There is a difference.

I don't understand the difference. I only have a few tools in my
running toolchest.

Should I be adding another training method to my meager list? My goals
are to be able to run a 5K without stopping to walk up hills. I'm an 40
year old woman with a 25% body fat percentage whose main sport is
weightlifting, i.e., I've got a lot of muscle mass and significant
amounts of flab. I usually only run once or twice a week when I'm not
training for a race. Right now I'm running four times a week in the 10
miles/week range.

I tend to do high intensity interval training where I warm up and then
do intervals with intensity (on a 1-10 scale) of something like 9, 5, 7,
8, repeat (where each stage is held for about a minute.) I'll typically
do four or five of these intervals and typically do them on a machine.
I know I'm done when the last interval requires a 10 intensity. The
experiment here was to do the intervals with the hills providing the
intensity rather than the speed.

My main training method is to run as long as I can, walk as short a
period as I can until I recover enough to keep running, and repeat this
pattern for about three miles of hilly trail terrain.

My only other training method is to go to the dreadmill and run as long
as I can without stopping on a flat surface. This doesn't work very
well because the gym is being "improved" and noxious fumes fill the
room, plus the treadmills are programmed to stop at 25 minutes and I can
run longer than that but am forced to stop and change machines and I
can't tell how much that rest affects me.

The other problem is that I get bored to tears on the treadmill and I
can't tell if I want to stop running because my body is quitting or
because my mind is quitting, if you understand the distinction. For all
these reasons, I don't run more than 2 miles continuously when I'm
training indoors, which is most of the year except autumn.

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Yes, that guideline is appropriate for longer reps or intervals. But I
also pointed to the principle that you generally reduce total volume as
intensity increases, which usually means that shorter reps means less
total volume.

Examples I gave in my earlier post were 5 reps of 2 minutes duration,
and 3 reps of 5 minutes duration. Though I didn't say it in that post,
applying that principle, you'd expect even less volume if the reps were
50 seconds duration. I wouldn't recommend reps this short though.

I'll try to find a more gradual longer hill. The problem is I live on
the edge of a cliff. The roads around here all have "hill" "mountain"
and "high" in their names. Steep hills I've got by the dozen. Long
gradual hills? Not so much.

By the way, yesterday when I was out running on the hill near my house I
attracted no less than 8 neighbors. Four came out to the sidewalk to
see what I was doing, four just gawked, and another one called me on the
phone later to say she saw me. Apparently my assault on this hill
caused quite a spectacle in town. I half expect to see it written up in
the Police Log.

Dally

Dally said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

TenKBabe said:

If you're going all out (100% maximum heart rate), then probably not. I
think Donovan meant VO2 pace (94 to 98% MHR). It sounds like you're
doing repetitions rather than intervals. There is a difference.

I don't understand the difference. I only have a few tools in my
running toolchest.

Intervals are performed with modest, usually active, recoveries. They are
relatively aerobic. Repetitions are more anaerobic. It's confusing because
the two are often used interchangeably.

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The other problem is that I get bored to tears on the treadmill and I
can't tell if I want to stop running because my body is quitting or
because my mind is quitting, if you understand the distinction. For all

They're closely related. If the workload is easy, your mind won't quit.

Quoted message said:

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Examples I gave in my earlier post were 5 reps of 2 minutes duration,
and 3 reps of 5 minutes duration. Though I didn't say it in that post,
applying that principle, you'd expect even less volume if the reps were
50 seconds duration. I wouldn't recommend reps this short though.

I'll try to find a more gradual longer hill. The problem is I live on
the edge of a cliff. The roads around here all have "hill" "mountain"
and "high" in their names. Steep hills I've got by the dozen. Long
gradual hills? Not so much.

As I said, you could just add some flat distance to each rep. What you
should look for is an interval that takes around 2 minutes or more, that
you can do for 5 reps or so.

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By the way, yesterday when I was out running on the hill near my house I
attracted no less than 8 neighbors. Four came out to the sidewalk to
see what I was doing, four just gawked, and another one called me on the
phone later to say she saw me. Apparently my assault on this hill
caused quite a spectacle in town. I half expect to see it written up in
the Police Log.

That's great, just don't get arrested (-; My track intervals turn heads at
times too (despite the appropriateness of the venue)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

My fall track work is usually done at a local high school. Often, that
time has coincided with the football teams practice. At times, it seemed
that they were practicing a bit late. The players (by their looks)
didn't seem to appreciate me being there. Finally, one day, one of the
players asked me when I planned to leave. He said that the coach told
them that they couldn't leave until the "old fart" quit. Kind of a fun
story.

Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
(snip)
My track intervals turn heads at

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times too (despite the appropriateness of the venue)

Cheers,

--
Quality is a function of design, materials, and craftsmanship.
Inspection can only confirm quality or reveal deficiencies.
In no case, can quality be inspected into anything.

Dally said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

TenKBabe said:

If you're going all out (100% maximum heart rate), then probably not. I
think Donovan meant VO2 pace (94 to 98% MHR). It sounds like you're
doing repetitions rather than intervals. There is a difference.

I don't understand the difference. I only have a few tools in my
running toolchest.

Should I be adding another training method to my meager list? My goals
are to be able to run a 5K without stopping to walk up hills. I'm an 40
year old woman with a 25% body fat percentage whose main sport is
weightlifting, i.e., I've got a lot of muscle mass and significant
amounts of flab. I usually only run once or twice a week when I'm not
training for a race. Right now I'm running four times a week in the 10
miles/week range.

Usually at low mileage, it's suggested that people just work on
endurance, rather than any high intensity speed work. You'll get gains
just by running. But, yes, as you noted later, beginners get major gains
in hill running when they first start hill work - and with every new
type of hill.

....

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My main training method is to run as long as I can, walk as short a
period as I can until I recover enough to keep running, and repeat this
pattern for about three miles of hilly trail terrain.

Are the walk breaks for muscle or aerobic recovery? If muscle, then they
should strengthen over time, and walk breaks are a good way to extend
the workout without risking injury. If aerobic, then either slowing down
to maintain aerobic (conversational or broken speech, but not gasping
for air) effort should enable you to work more continuously - if that's
your goal. Your effort levels and recovery will depend on your goals of
your workouts.

Quoted message said:

The other problem is that I get bored to tears on the treadmill and I
can't tell if I want to stop running because my body is quitting or
because my mind is quitting, if you understand the distinction. For all
these reasons, I don't run more than 2 miles continuously when I'm
training indoors, which is most of the year except autumn.

Is using the treadmill a time management issue or ....? Not sure why
you need to be indoors anytime - except maybe air quality issues,
tornadoes, hurricanes - or time management, watching kids, etc.

Quoted message said:

I'll try to find a more gradual longer hill. The problem is I live on
the edge of a cliff. The roads around here all have "hill" "mountain"
and "high" in their names. Steep hills I've got by the dozen. Long
gradual hills? Not so much.

How steep is "steep" (% slope)? How big are the hills (vertical ft)? The
reason I'm asking is when I first started doing structured running and
saw the term "hill" work, I wasn't sure if they were referring to the
50-ft (vertical) hills (<5% slope) along the road or the 3000 ft
mountain with 20-30% slopes where I knew a race was held. (answer: it
depends on goals) IMHO, what topography you have to work with and what
your goal is can greatly affect how you train. Yea, we lack long,
gradual hills out my door also, but went in search of some this summer
on some other trails or gravel road in the hills. I now have a larger
repertoire to pull from for various objectives. I generally don't
consider a race unless it has hills (snowshoe running is exception). If
you only have short, steep hills (< 2 min up, 10% or steeper slopes),

A couple more thoughts. If you're trying to run 3 mi on hilly trail,
keep in mind that there are downhills in there also that you should
train for. If you have time, you can run separate uphill (like you're
doing) or downhill (doesn't look like you are getting this either in
your hill runs or treadmill) workouts. I've always been short on time,
so try to maintain constant effort (a challenge on short hills with
10-30% slopes) on my runs or run up and jog down, just to be sure I get
the downhill strengthening. When I have more time and can run more
consistently, I *may* separate the two so I get more complete recovery
between the work portions.

It's frequently recommended to only run hills once a week, at least
while starting, but it may depend on how you're using them.

I've seen 3-min hills recommended for conditioning - long enough to
provide some continuity, but short enough that it's not too daunting to
do "one more". But it's a good idea to stop (or start warmdown) while
you feel you can still do "one more" - to reduce chance of injury.
Shorter ones could be used for higher intensity workouts.

If you have hilly trails to run on, you might just consider running them
- either constant effort, or fartlek on uphills - since it emphasizes a
smoother running motion (like you'd actually use in a race or trail run)
rather than doing 180 turns every couple minutes. You also learn to
judge how to run hills - when to push without crashing, how much
recovery (easier effort running or walking) is needed within a run, etc.
I've done it both ways - reps last year to build strength, but tended to
just run them this year to get more efficient and better at effort
management. I usually maintain aerobic levels (conversational pace or
speech starting to break up), but just started adding occasional
fartleks on them this fall. I've never done any "hard" hill runs since
I'm still low mileage. Just my $.02

But the biggest thing is to just go run and listen to your body.

Welcome to hill running 🙂

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By the way, yesterday when I was out running on the hill near my house I
attracted no less than 8 neighbors.

This is one reason I switched to trails 😉 Too many people I knew saw me
on one of my long runs one day - and they knew where I lived - so had
some explaining to do later.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog