Does Sydney have a chance?

cfsmtb said:

Can Sydney actually do something about it's traffic chaos, or is the
problem too far gone, or complicated by competing interests?

Maybe the only thing they can agree on is that they should hold on to
the "worst city in Australia to ride in" title.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

Michael Warner said:

Maybe the only thing they can agree on is that they should hold on to
the "worst city in Australia to ride in" title.

That would be a pity really, considering Sydney Council are now implementing the Cycle Strategy and Action Plan.
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/AboutSydney/ParkingAndTransport/Cycling/CycleStrategyAndActionPlan.asp

And the RTA are implementing the Sydney Orbital.

sigh.

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 21 May 2007 11:26:46 +1000

cfsmtb said:

That would be a pity really, considering Sydney Council are now
implementing the Cycle Strategy and Action Plan.
http://tinyurl.com/ysbpl6

I don't really mind the bits of the trip that are in the City of
Sydney.

There are bits that are annoying - the mess at the end of the Pyrmont
Bridge path, the mess that is the Pyrmont Bridge, the various
approaches to the Harbour Bridge none of which are very good, are all
just annoying, not actively bad.

I'd like better provision in the Campsie area to make the shopping run
easier, not everyone's as happy as I am to brave Beamish St but the
bypass is worse and the backstreets generally steeper.

What makes Sydney bad for a bicycle for me is the hills, probably
because I'm a motorcyclist so more confident in traffic on two wheels
than someone who normally uses a car.

What I'd like to see is each council sizing up their area and locating
routes that are as straight a line to major centres as they can get
while not being too steep. As that was what horse-drawn traffic also
wanted, they should re-route car traffic up the steep slightly more
roundabout routes and have the straighter flatter ones that the
council areas are built around focused on bicycles.

Zebee

On May 20, 12:01 pm, cfsmtb <cfsmtb.2qv...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Can Sydney actually do something about it's traffic chaos, or is the
problem too far gone, or complicated by competing interests?

its all very well and wonderful that Clover goes off on a junket to
ride a pushie.. but the Sydney CBD is already very well serviced by
public transport and the council appears to have a plan for bicycles.

What about the other 90% of the population that doesn't go anywhere
near the CBD for the majority of their cycling (or public) transport
needs? That's where Sydney's problems really lie: in the ring > 10k
out from the CBD. The northern beaches, and anything west (SW/W or NW)
not near a train line.

On 2007-05-21, Zebee Johnstone (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 21 May 2007 11:26:46 +1000

cfsmtb said:

That would be a pity really, considering Sydney Council are now
implementing the Cycle Strategy and Action Plan.
http://tinyurl.com/ysbpl6

I don't really mind the bits of the trip that are in the City of
Sydney.

There are bits that are annoying - the mess at the end of the Pyrmont
Bridge path, the mess that is the Pyrmont Bridge, the various
approaches to the Harbour Bridge none of which are very good, are all
just annoying, not actively bad.

Isn't there one that ends in steps? Would you not call that actively
bad?

Or am I just more clumsy than most people (I haven't fallen down steps
with the bike yet (oi, shuttup in the back))? Don't answer that.

Quoted message said:

while not being too steep. As that was what horse-drawn traffic also
wanted,

How many gear inches was your average horse?

--
TimC
To define recursion, we must first define recursion.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Zebee Johnstone said:

What I'd like to see is each council sizing up their area and locating
routes that are as straight a line to major centres as they can get
while not being too steep. As that was what horse-drawn traffic also
wanted, they should re-route car traffic up the steep slightly more
roundabout routes and have the straighter flatter ones that the
council areas are built around focused on bicycles.

Zebee

Zebee,

Diverting motorised transport to hilly roads just increases pollution
and pisses off drivers.

Main roads are generally the easiest route along ridge-lines and least
possible inclines because that is where the horses and trams could go.
These roads must be shared by cars, buses, trucks, motorbikes and
pushbikes. What they do not need to have is parking.

Around my way the thing that annoys me most is not dealing with traffic
going the same direction as me but vehicles parked in perfectly usable
road space, especially in clearways. I try to give drivers a fair go but
I am not going to sacrifice myself to a door flinging open or someone
stopping to reverse into a parking space, or a taxi letting somebody out
(and they take five minutes to pay the driver).

A bus lane should be provided on each side of every major suburban road
and only buses and bikes allowed in that lane. Get the taxis and
motorbikes out of there.

cheers,
Darryl

TimC said:

Isn't there one that ends in steps? Would you not call that actively
bad?

No, I'd call it extremely fun. It's awesome for stoppies on the way down,
and a good challenge to ride up.

Oh wait, I see your point.

--
Dave Hughes | [email hidden]
"This isn't life in the fast lane, it's life in the oncoming traffic."
- (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 21 May 2007 14:19:07 +1000

TimC said:

On 2007-05-21, Zebee Johnstone (aka Bruce)

Quoted message said:

Bridge path, the mess that is the Pyrmont Bridge, the various
approaches to the Harbour Bridge none of which are very good, are all
just annoying, not actively bad.

Isn't there one that ends in steps? Would you not call that actively
bad?

Dunno, guess I'm used to it. I don't ride down it. Pushing up it is
a pain, but hey, stretches bits of leg that don't normally get it.

Dunno what City of Sydney could do about it though, as that's a) North
Sydney and b) State Govt.

Zebee

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 21 May 2007 04:50:39 GMT

Darryl C said:

possible inclines because that is where the horses and trams could go.
These roads must be shared by cars, buses, trucks, motorbikes and
pushbikes. What they do not need to have is parking.

I'll agree with that.

Quoted message said:

A bus lane should be provided on each side of every major suburban road
and only buses and bikes allowed in that lane. Get the taxis and
motorbikes out of there.

Oddly, I don't agree with this.

Because bicycles slow buses up, and in traffic a bicycle can't get out
of the bus's way.

If the bus doesn't have to stop them the bicycle is an active nuisance
unless it is going faster than most commuters, never mind kids or
shoppers or novices.

A motorcycle doesn't slow the bus up at all.

Given that a bus can transport many more people, I think that either
the lanes have to be wide enough for the bus to safely pass the
bicycle, or the bicycles have to be out of the bus lanes.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

Because bicycles slow buses up, and in traffic a bicycle can't get out
of the bus's way.

If the bus doesn't have to stop them the bicycle is an active nuisance
unless it is going faster than most commuters, never mind kids or
shoppers or novices.

A motorcycle doesn't slow the bus up at all.

Given that a bus can transport many more people, I think that either
the lanes have to be wide enough for the bus to safely pass the
bicycle, or the bicycles have to be out of the bus lanes.

I ride a lot in bus lanes, and am almost never in a position where I'm
delaying a bus and unable to let it pass (ymmv). On the rare occasion it
does happen, it costs very little to stop and wait in the gutter or on the
footpath while it goes past.

I'd be very happy to support a special "bike please give way" audio device
that bus drivers could activate when a bike was holding them up.

--
beerwolf

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 21 May 2007 08:51:48 -0000

beerwolf said:

I ride a lot in bus lanes, and am almost never in a position where I'm
delaying a bus and unable to let it pass (ymmv). On the rare occasion it
does happen, it costs very little to stop and wait in the gutter or on the
footpath while it goes past.

I'd be very happy to support a special "bike please give way" audio device
that bus drivers could activate when a bike was holding them up.

I think the lanes would have to be wider for that, not sure if Sydney
streets can handle wider lanes.

2 bus driver friends complain a lot about bicycles in bus lanes,
perhaps you aren't the typical rider? (of course *everyone* in Sydney
complains about cyclists, maybe the bus drivers just have different
things to complain about.)

An audio device might work, but where's the enforcement, and what if
they don't?

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

2 bus driver friends complain a lot about bicycles in bus lanes,
perhaps you aren't the typical rider? (of course *everyone* in Sydney
complains about cyclists, maybe the bus drivers just have different
things to complain about.)

It is a little odd.

Although I agree in principle that bikes shouldn't hold up buses.. I
find it difficult to believe that they actually slow any of them down
in peak hour.. what with the ridiculous frequency of bus stops that we
typically have (what is it, 400m between stops?).. sure, I bike mught
hold up an express bus, but more than likely, the other buses in the
lane are already doing that.

Zebee Johnstone said:

Quoted message said:

I'd be very happy to support a special "bike please give way" audio
device
that bus drivers could activate when a bike was holding them up.

I think the lanes would have to be wider for that, not sure if Sydney
streets can handle wider lanes.

No, if the lane isn't wide enough, and the bus driver pings you, just get
on the footpath and wait until the bus passes.

Quoted message said:

An audio device might work, but where's the enforcement, and what if
they don't?

Enforcement is in the same place where they catch motorists failing to let
a bus out when it pulls away from the kerb, or taxis letting passengers out
in a bus-only lane: ie. nada at present. I think Sydney buses should get
the same traffic priority as Melbourne trams, it would work if a few
examples were made.

I think Sydney needs more footpaths made into shared paths - as they have
done along Victoria Road between Iron Cove and the Anzac Bridge path.
That is a path that works well (imo), particularly on the bit west of
Darling St.

In aus.bicycle on 21 May 2007 05:21:10 -0700

Duncan said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

2 bus driver friends complain a lot about bicycles in bus lanes,
perhaps you aren't the typical rider? (of course *everyone* in Sydney
complains about cyclists, maybe the bus drivers just have different
things to complain about.)

It is a little odd.

Although I agree in principle that bikes shouldn't hold up buses.. I
find it difficult to believe that they actually slow any of them down
in peak hour.. what with the ridiculous frequency of bus stops that we
typically have (what is it, 400m between stops?).. sure, I bike mught
hold up an express bus, but more than likely, the other buses in the
lane are already doing that.

Not all buses stop at every stop. Not all heavy traffic is peak hour,
consider weekends and even on week days there are places that have
difficult traffic, especially as in your scenario a two lane road has
just become a one lane road.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on 21 May 2007 05:21:10 -0700

Duncan said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

2 bus driver friends complain a lot about bicycles in bus lanes,
perhaps you aren't the typical rider? (of course *everyone* in Sydney
complains about cyclists, maybe the bus drivers just have different
things to complain about.)

Quoted message said:

It is a little odd.

Quoted message said:

Although I agree in principle that bikes shouldn't hold up buses.. I
find it difficult to believe that they actually slow any of them down
in peak hour.. what with the ridiculous frequency of bus stops that we
typically have (what is it, 400m between stops?).. sure, I bike mught
hold up an express bus, but more than likely, the other buses in the
lane are already doing that.

Not all buses stop at every stop. Not all heavy traffic is peak hour,
consider weekends and even on week days there are places that have
difficult traffic, especially as in your scenario a two lane road has
just become a one lane road.

Zebee

yes.. but where is a cyclist holding up buses?

Out of peak hour.. there's mostly no bus lanes and the clearway is
full of parked cars, so the point is moot.

When we've been reduced to one lane (from two) because of a bus, it's
hardly the cyclists fault, and he/she can quickly duck around said
bustruction.

In aus.bicycle on 21 May 2007 15:52:36 -0700

Duncan said:

yes.. but where is a cyclist holding up buses?

Out of peak hour.. there's mostly no bus lanes and the clearway is
full of parked cars, so the point is moot.

The proposal was to ban parking on the mainish suburban roads in the
hilly areas, the ones that carry a lot of traffic because they were
the "good" roads in horse drawn days - thus suitable for cyclists.

So no cars allowed to park, and if the bus lanes are permanent then no
cars in them either, so down from 2 lanes to 1 at all times. That's a
lot more congestion.

Bus lanes on all roads remember, not 3 lane ones. That's going to
make a lot more traffic for the bus to negotiate if it has to pass a
cyclist, and if we are talking that many roads we are not talking fast
cyclists, we are talking *all* cyclists.

I really don't think buslanes are viable on all the roads in question.
I think banning parking is a good idea though.

Zebee

beerwolf said:

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Given that a bus can transport many more people, I think that either
the lanes have to be wide enough for the bus to safely pass the
bicycle, or the bicycles have to be out of the bus lanes.

Quoted message said:

I'd be very happy to support a special "bike please give way" audio
device that bus drivers could activate when a bike was holding them
up.

You mean like a siren? :-)

Theo
(No, not the kind that sings to sailors)

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on 21 May 2007 15:52:36 -0700

Duncan said:

yes.. but where is a cyclist holding up buses?

Quoted message said:

Out of peak hour.. there's mostly no bus lanes and the clearway is
full of parked cars, so the point is moot.

The proposal was to ban parking on the mainish suburban roads in the
hilly areas, the ones that carry a lot of traffic because they were
the "good" roads in horse drawn days - thus suitable for cyclists.

So no cars allowed to park, and if the bus lanes are permanent then no
cars in them either, so down from 2 lanes to 1 at all times. That's a
lot more congestion.

Bus lanes on all roads remember, not 3 lane ones. That's going to
make a lot more traffic for the bus to negotiate if it has to pass a
cyclist, and if we are talking that many roads we are not talking fast
cyclists, we are talking *all* cyclists.

ok.. now I understand. My apologies.

Quoted message said:

I really don't think buslanes are viable on all the roads in question.
I think banning parking is a good idea though.

Although I'd be pretty peeved if I lived on a main road and could no
longer park in front of my house.

On 2007-05-22, Duncan (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

I really don't think buslanes are viable on all the roads in question.
I think banning parking is a good idea though.

Although I'd be pretty peeved if I lived on a main road and could no
longer park in front of my house.

I think all people should have provisions on their block of land for
parking, if they wish to park a vehicle. The state, and hence its
taxpayers, should not be forced for someone to have the privelege of
parking on public road. It's a mighty innefficient use of public
resources to have a private vehicle blocking that lane from productive
use.

--
TimC
"Application encountered an error while failing. Error recovered
successfully, proceeding to fail"