Does a semi Atkins diet work?

[email hidden] (Chip Spear) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I am not an expert on the Atkins diet, but do find it very interesting. In discussions with other
people they say that it is a bad diet for a number of reasons. One, if a person does not follow
the strict guidelines for the first couple of weeks, will the diet still work, i.e. if someone
follows it "part-time" is it still effective?

If you want to avoid the more restrictive induction phase of the atkins diet, you may be better off
looking into The Zone diet by Barry Sears. It is less restrictive. It takes longer to get the same
results but it works. I recomend The Zone over Atkins.

Quoted message said:

Many people cut down on carbs, and eat more fat and protein, but they have not tricked their body
to the point of the keytone (spelling) thing where the body starts burning all the fat off. As a
result these folks say that individuals are now loading up on fats and cholesterol without
actually creating the right environment to eliminate it.

Any time you restrict junk carbs its a good thing. What triggers the body to store fat is the
insulin response to high blood sugar levels which is caused by too many high-GI-Load junk carbs. The
body isn't *tricked* into burning fat, that is what it does naturally in the absence of an
artificially high level of refined and junk carbs. If anything, the body is *tricked* into the fat
storage mode by a diet that is artificially high in refined and junk carbs.

Insofar as loading up on cholesterol and fats. Dietary cholesterol is not the cause of high levels
of blood cholesterol. Blood cholesterol is created by the body in response to a high carb diet. The
evidence that a high fat diet is unhealthy is very suspect. There was a great deal of statistical
chicanery to show this and no solid evidence exists to actually prove it.

So,

Quoted message said:

many people are following the diet on a "part-time" basis. Does it still work? What is happening
to the fat, weight and cholesterol in this type of situation?

Looking for some more technical information.

Thanks, Chip Spear

Any restriction of junk carbs is a good thing. The damage to the insulin receptors and the insulin
production cells is to some degree cumulative. The more exposure your system gets to high blood
glucose levels the more damage is done and the closer you are to suffer from metabolic syndrome X,
obesity and/or diabetes.

The less you body is exposed to high levels of junk carbs in the diet the more normal your weight
will be and the healthier you will be and feel.

TC

In response, let me pose a hypothetical situation. My girlfriend and I go out to dinner with some
friends. They are both on Atkins type diets, though they did not go through the initial 2 week
highly restrictive phase. They order meals of a sirloin burger, bacon, cheese, no bun, salad, etc.
They also order drinks. Is this good, or are they at risk for increasing their cholesterol levels?
And are actually going to store more of this fat. I ask this because my girlfriend is insisting that
they are being ridiculous. She says this is an unnatural diet, that all that high fat meat is
harmful. However, this is not possible over the long term. I don't think this is the case but I want
to do my homework before presenting a counter argument.

[email hidden] (tcomeau) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Chip Spear) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I am not an expert on the Atkins diet, but do find it very interesting. In discussions with
other people they say that it is a bad diet for a number of reasons. One, if a person does not
follow the strict guidelines for the first couple of weeks, will the diet still work, i.e. if
someone follows it "part-time" is it still effective?

If you want to avoid the more restrictive induction phase of the atkins diet, you may be better
off looking into The Zone diet by Barry Sears. It is less restrictive. It takes longer to get the
same results but it works. I recomend The Zone over Atkins.

Quoted message said:

Many people cut down on carbs, and eat more fat and protein, but they have not tricked their
body to the point of the keytone (spelling) thing where the body starts burning all the fat off.
As a result these folks say that individuals are now loading up on fats and cholesterol without
actually creating the right environment to eliminate it.

Any time you restrict junk carbs its a good thing. What triggers the body to store fat is the
insulin response to high blood sugar levels which is caused by too many high-GI-Load junk carbs.
The body isn't *tricked* into burning fat, that is what it does naturally in the absence of an
artificially high level of refined and junk carbs. If anything, the body is *tricked* into the fat
storage mode by a diet that is artificially high in refined and junk carbs.

Insofar as loading up on cholesterol and fats. Dietary cholesterol is not the cause of high levels
of blood cholesterol. Blood cholesterol is created by the body in response to a high carb diet.
The evidence that a high fat diet is unhealthy is very suspect. There was a great deal of
statistical chicanery to show this and no solid evidence exists to actually prove it.

So,

Quoted message said:

many people are following the diet on a "part-time" basis. Does it still work? What is happening
to the fat, weight and cholesterol in this type of situation?

Looking for some more technical information.

Thanks, Chip Spear

Any restriction of junk carbs is a good thing. The damage to the insulin receptors and the insulin
production cells is to some degree cumulative. The more exposure your system gets to high blood
glucose levels the more damage is done and the closer you are to suffer from metabolic syndrome X,
obesity and/or diabetes.

The less you body is exposed to high levels of junk carbs in the diet the more normal your weight
will be and the healthier you will be and feel.

TC

In response, let me pose a hypothetical situation. My girlfriend and I go out to dinner with some
friends. They are both on Atkins type diets, though they did not go through the initial 2 week
highly restrictive phase. They order meals of a sirloin burger, bacon, cheese, no bun, salad, etc.
They also order drinks. Is this good, or are they at risk for increasing their cholesterol levels?
And are actually going to store more of this fat. I ask this because my girlfriend is insisting that
they are being ridiculous. She says this is an unnatural diet, that all that high fat meat is
harmful. However, this is not possible over the long term. I don't think this is the case but I want
to do my homework before presenting a counter argument.

[email hidden] (tcomeau) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Chip Spear) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I am not an expert on the Atkins diet, but do find it very interesting. In discussions with
other people they say that it is a bad diet for a number of reasons. One, if a person does not
follow the strict guidelines for the first couple of weeks, will the diet still work, i.e. if
someone follows it "part-time" is it still effective?

If you want to avoid the more restrictive induction phase of the atkins diet, you may be better
off looking into The Zone diet by Barry Sears. It is less restrictive. It takes longer to get the
same results but it works. I recomend The Zone over Atkins.

Quoted message said:

Many people cut down on carbs, and eat more fat and protein, but they have not tricked their
body to the point of the keytone (spelling) thing where the body starts burning all the fat off.
As a result these folks say that individuals are now loading up on fats and cholesterol without
actually creating the right environment to eliminate it.

Any time you restrict junk carbs its a good thing. What triggers the body to store fat is the
insulin response to high blood sugar levels which is caused by too many high-GI-Load junk carbs.
The body isn't *tricked* into burning fat, that is what it does naturally in the absence of an
artificially high level of refined and junk carbs. If anything, the body is *tricked* into the fat
storage mode by a diet that is artificially high in refined and junk carbs.

Insofar as loading up on cholesterol and fats. Dietary cholesterol is not the cause of high levels
of blood cholesterol. Blood cholesterol is created by the body in response to a high carb diet.
The evidence that a high fat diet is unhealthy is very suspect. There was a great deal of
statistical chicanery to show this and no solid evidence exists to actually prove it.

So,

Quoted message said:

many people are following the diet on a "part-time" basis. Does it still work? What is happening
to the fat, weight and cholesterol in this type of situation?

Looking for some more technical information.

Thanks, Chip Spear

Any restriction of junk carbs is a good thing. The damage to the insulin receptors and the insulin
production cells is to some degree cumulative. The more exposure your system gets to high blood
glucose levels the more damage is done and the closer you are to suffer from metabolic syndrome X,
obesity and/or diabetes.

The less you body is exposed to high levels of junk carbs in the diet the more normal your weight
will be and the healthier you will be and feel.

TC

Hi protein / low carb works to lower cholesterol, blood pressure and diabetes but the high fat
content in Atkins has to go. It may kill you eventually. When you come off the diet you may
experience the hospital soon after. Many do.

"Chip Spear" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In response, let me pose a hypothetical situation. My girlfriend and I go out to dinner with some
friends. They are both on Atkins type diets, though they did not go through the initial 2 week
highly restrictive phase. They order meals of a sirloin burger, bacon, cheese, no bun, salad, etc.
They also order drinks. Is this good, or are they at risk for increasing their cholesterol levels?
And are actually going to store more of this fat. I ask this because my girlfriend is insisting
that they are being ridiculous. She says this is an unnatural diet, that all that high fat meat is
harmful. However, this is not possible over the long term. I don't think this is the case but I
want to do my homework before presenting a counter argument.

[email hidden] (tcomeau) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Chip Spear) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am not an expert on the Atkins diet, but do find it very interesting. In discussions with
other people they say that it is a bad diet for a number of reasons. One, if a person does not
follow the strict guidelines for the first couple of weeks, will the diet still work, i.e. if
someone follows it "part-time" is it still effective?

If you want to avoid the more restrictive induction phase of the atkins diet, you may be better
off looking into The Zone diet by Barry Sears. It is less restrictive. It takes longer to get
the same results but it works. I recomend The Zone over Atkins.

Quoted message said:

Many people cut down on carbs, and eat more fat and protein, but they have not tricked their
body to the point of the keytone (spelling) thing where the body starts burning all the fat
off. As a result these folks say that individuals are now loading up on fats and cholesterol
without actually creating the right environment to eliminate it.

Any time you restrict junk carbs its a good thing. What triggers the body to store fat is the
insulin response to high blood sugar levels which is caused by too many high-GI-Load junk carbs.
The body isn't *tricked* into burning fat, that is what it does naturally in the absence of an
artificially high level of refined and junk carbs. If anything, the body is *tricked* into the
fat storage mode by a diet that is artificially high in refined and junk carbs.

Insofar as loading up on cholesterol and fats. Dietary cholesterol is not the cause of high
levels of blood cholesterol. Blood cholesterol is created by the body in response to a high carb
diet. The evidence that a high fat diet is unhealthy is very suspect. There was a great deal of
statistical chicanery to show this and no solid evidence exists to actually prove it.

So,

Quoted message said:

many people are following the diet on a "part-time" basis. Does it still work? What is
happening to the fat, weight and cholesterol in this type of situation?

Looking for some more technical information.

Thanks, Chip Spear

Any restriction of junk carbs is a good thing. The damage to the insulin receptors and the
insulin production cells is to some degree cumulative. The more exposure your system gets to
high blood glucose levels the more damage is done and the closer you are to suffer from
metabolic syndrome X, obesity and/or diabetes.

The less you body is exposed to high levels of junk carbs in the diet the more normal your
weight will be and the healthier you will be and feel.

TC

"Ear Rings" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi protein / low carb works to lower cholesterol, blood pressure and diabetes but the high fat
content in Atkins has to go. It may kill you eventually. When you come off the diet you may
experience the hospital

soon

Quoted message said:

after. Many do.

So tell us: *How* many? *Who are they*? And: *How the hell do you know*? Also: What is your
*evidence* that high fat in the relative absence of carbs is dangerous and 'has to go'?

Come on: *tell us*. Otherwise, we are all just going to feel even more convinced that you are an
[censored] who *makes all this [censored] up*...

M.

Nice try [censored]

"Mark D." <[email hidden]_is @home.com> wrote in message news:OT1Ob.4954$JL4.38369@newsfep4-
glfd.server.ntli.net...

Quoted message said:

Come on: *tell us*. Otherwise, we are all just going to feel even more convinced that you are an
[censored] who *makes all this [censored] up*...

M.

"Ear Rings" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nice try [censored]

My case rests...

M.

You lose. Your name is Mark

"Mark D." <[email hidden]_is @home.com> wrote in message news:NH8Ob.5068$JL4.39546@newsfep4-
glfd.server.ntli.net...

Quoted message said:

"Ear Rings" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nice try [censored]

My case rests...

M.

[email hidden] (Chip Spear) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In response, let me pose a hypothetical situation. My girlfriend and I go out to dinner with some
friends. They are both on Atkins type diets, though they did not go through the initial 2 week
highly restrictive phase. They order meals of a sirloin burger, bacon, cheese, no bun, salad, etc.
They also order drinks. Is this good, or are they at risk for increasing their cholesterol levels?
And are actually going to store more of this fat. I ask this because my girlfriend is insisting
that they are being ridiculous. She says this is an unnatural diet, that all that high fat meat is
harmful. However, this is not possible over the long term. I don't think this is the case but I
want to do my homework before presenting a counter argument.

There really is no real evidence that fatty meats causes elevated cholesterol levels or CVDs.
The science behind the "meat is bad" idea is very suspect. It has more to do with politics
than medicine.

Many, if not most, people who low-carb, who have elevated cholesterol levels, see at least some
reduction in bad cholesterol and an increase in good cholesterol. This runs 180 degrees opposite to
the predictions of the mainstream medical establishment who are still wondering why studies have
proved them dead wrong.

This strongly suggests that a high refined carb diet is the real culprit causing heart disease and
cholesterol problems.

Insofar as the "unnatural diet" comment goes, the most recent addition to our diets is refined
carbs. We've evolved millions of years with only small amounts of sugary stuff like honey and
fruits. Northern Europeans were first introduced to cultivated grains only some 2000 years ago by
the Romans. We've never, in the history of mankind, consumed the huge amounts of refined carbs that
we consume today. And consumption of refined carbs have increased to a ridiculous amount since the
1970's and the advent of high-fructose corn syrup which is sold for pennies by the half gallon at
every 7-11 store. If anything is unnatural about our diets, it is the refined carbs.

TC

"Ear Rings" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi protein / low carb works to lower cholesterol, blood pressure and diabetes but the high fat
content in Atkins has to go. It may kill you eventually. When you come off the diet you may
experience the hospital soon after. Many do.

How many exactly? And where? Which hospitals? Names? How 'bout a rederence to a study on post low-
carb diet hospitalizations? Huh? Huh?

What deaths? Where?

Sheesh.... what a maroon....

TC

In article said:

[email hidden] (Chip Spear) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In response, let me pose a hypothetical situation. My girlfriend and I go out to dinner with some
friends. They are both on Atkins type diets, though they did not go through the initial 2 week
highly restrictive phase. They order meals of a sirloin burger, bacon, cheese, no bun, salad,
etc. They also order drinks. Is this good, or are they at risk for increasing their cholesterol
levels? And are actually going to store more of this fat. I ask this because my girlfriend is
insisting that they are being ridiculous. She says this is an unnatural diet, that all that high
fat meat is harmful. However, this is not possible over the long term. I don't think this is the
case but I want to do my homework before presenting a counter argument.

There really is no real evidence that fatty meats causes elevated cholesterol levels or CVDs. The
science behind the "meat is bad" idea is very suspect. It has more to do with politics than
medicine.

Many, if not most, people who low-carb, who have elevated cholesterol levels, see at least some
reduction in bad cholesterol and an increase in good cholesterol. This runs 180 degrees opposite
to the predictions of the mainstream medical establishment who are still wondering why studies
have proved them dead wrong.

This strongly suggests that a high refined carb diet is the real culprit causing heart disease and
cholesterol problems.

Insofar as the "unnatural diet" comment goes, the most recent addition to our diets is refined
carbs. We've evolved millions of years with only small amounts of sugary stuff like honey and
fruits. Northern Europeans were first introduced to cultivated grains only some 2000 years ago by
the Romans. We've never, in the history of mankind, consumed the huge amounts of refined carbs
that we consume today. And consumption of refined carbs have increased to a ridiculous amount
since the 1970's and the advent of high-fructose corn syrup which is sold for pennies by the half
gallon at every 7-11 store. If anything is unnatural about our diets, it is the refined carbs.

TC

well, a few hundred years ago, we did not eat that much meat, either.

Weight loss is what causes cholesterol to go down, along with exercise which helps improve its
composition. Effect of overeating meat may be opposite, but less, than the effect of weight loss.

i

tcomeau said:

There really is no real evidence that fatty meats causes elevated cholesterol levels or CVDs. The
science behind the "meat is bad" idea is very suspect. It has more to do with politics than
medicine.

When all else fails you resort to conspiracy. There are oodles of studies to show the relationship
but you always claim that the people involved sold their souls to the company store. When you hide
behind this kind of logic you are always right. Convenient but shallow. A lot of similarities with
our current president. 😉

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Weight loss is what causes cholesterol to go down, along with exercise which helps improve its
composition. Effect of overeating meat may be opposite, but less, than the effect of weight loss.

Yes, and that is why Atkins causes more favorable lipid changes than Ornish, while you are
loosing more using Ornish's high-carb plan....

kansas.com7593416.htmOpen ↗

Mirek

Mirek Fidler said:

Quoted message said:

Weight loss is what causes cholesterol to go down, along with exercise which helps improve its
composition. Effect of overeating meat may be opposite, but less, than the effect of weight loss.

Yes, and that is why Atkins causes more favorable lipid changes than Ornish, while you are
loosing more using Ornish's high-carb plan....

Your reply reminds me of Frost's poem "Fire and ice" with Atkins being fire and Ornish ice. Frankly
I'd rather not die either way. They are both extreme ends of the spectrum in philosophy and results.
You may consider Atkins leading edge I find him bleeding edge and just wait, they'll be a new fad
diet next year with someone else with the desire to make a few bucks off the notion of another fad
diet. Oh wait, the immediate horizon shows "The South Beach Diet."

From the South Beach hype page: ""...the real value of the book is its sound nutritional advice. It
retains the best part of the Atkins regime – meat – while losing the tenet that all carbs should be
avoided. Instead, Agatston encourages a well-balanced diet that includes plenty of fruit,
vegetables and whole grains, plus nuts and healthy oils..."

Sounds like a turn in the road back to balance less the simple useless carbs. My God Agatston enters
the notion of "normal-size helpings." I feel an infarction, he hints that we eat too damn much. With
his intitial notion of sanity I'll have to read some more. Hopefully his foundation isn't built on
extrapolating GI to every individual when it's pure caloric overload.

--
Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email hidden]

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

tcomeau said:

There really is no real evidence that fatty meats causes elevated cholesterol levels or CVDs.
The science behind the "meat is bad" idea is very suspect. It has more to do with politics than
medicine.

When all else fails you resort to conspiracy. There are oodles of studies to show the relationship
but you always claim that the people involved sold their souls to the company store. When you hide
behind this kind of logic you are always right. Convenient but shallow. A lot of similarities with
our current president. 😉

There are few studies that support the "meat is bad" idea, or the "dietary cholesterol equals blood
cholesterol" idea, or the "all fats are bad" idea.

You can start researching this at:

second-opinions.co.ukcvd index.htmlOpen ↗

This is only one source of many that I've used in my extensive research on this and many others
topics. And my not being a trained medical person has helped me enormously in not having pre-
concieved notions as I learn more and more about these things.

There is an old saying that politics begins with the guy sitting next to you. Politics is everywhere
and especially where there is money to be made. Whether it is in a group of doctors protecting their
interests, or a group of pill merchants trying to sell as many pills as they can, or a politician or
three looking for an issue to ride into office. The "fat is bad" issue is one of these unfortunate
issues that got carried along by stupid politicians latching on to the word of stupid doctors with a
wrong idea and making it public policy before any in-depth research was done.

TC

[email hidden] (tcomeau) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

tcomeau said:

There really is no real evidence that fatty meats causes elevated cholesterol levels or CVDs.
The science behind the "meat is bad" idea is very suspect. It has more to do with politics
than medicine.

When all else fails you resort to conspiracy. There are oodles of studies to show the
relationship but you always claim that the people involved sold their souls to the company
store. When you hide behind this kind of logic you are always right. Convenient but shallow. A
lot of similarities with our current president. 😉

There are few studies that support the "meat is bad" idea, or the "dietary cholesterol equals
blood cholesterol" idea, or the "all fats are bad" idea.

You can start researching this at:

second-opinions.co.ukcvd index.htmlOpen ↗

This is only one source of many that I've used in my extensive research on this and many others
topics. And my not being a trained medical person has helped me enormously in not having pre-
concieved notions as I learn more and more about these things.

There is an old saying that politics begins with the guy sitting next to you. Politics is
everywhere and especially where there is money to be made. Whether it is in a group of doctors
protecting their interests, or a group of pill merchants trying to sell as many pills as they
can, or a politician or three looking for an issue to ride into office. The "fat is bad" issue is
one of these unfortunate issues that got carried along by stupid politicians latching on to the
word of stupid doctors with a wrong idea and making it public policy before any in-depth research
was done.

TC

Here is an interesting and relevant article:

redflagsweekly.com2003 nov22P.htmlOpen ↗

TC

This is all very interesting and terrific in helping me understand how this diet works. I have one
other question, which is, what is the purpose of the strict two week beginning period? What effect
does it have and what if someone "skips" it?

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mirek Fidler said:

Quoted message said:

Weight loss is what causes cholesterol to go down, along with exercise which helps improve
its composition. Effect of overeating meat may be opposite, but less, than the effect of
weight loss.

Yes, and that is why Atkins causes more favorable lipid changes than Ornish, while you are
loosing more using Ornish's high-carb plan....

Your reply reminds me of Frost's poem "Fire and ice" with Atkins being fire and Ornish ice.
Frankly I'd rather not die either way. They are both extreme ends of the spectrum in philosophy
and results. You may consider Atkins leading edge I find him bleeding edge and just wait, they'll
be a new fad diet next year with someone else with the desire to make a few bucks off the notion
of another fad diet. Oh wait, the immediate horizon shows "The South Beach Diet."

From the South Beach hype page: ""...the real value of the book is its sound nutritional advice.
It retains the best part of the Atkins regime – meat – while losing the tenet that all carbs
should be avoided. Instead, Agatston encourages a well-balanced diet that includes plenty of
fruit, vegetables and whole grains, plus nuts and healthy oils..."

Sounds like a turn in the road back to balance less the simple useless carbs. My God Agatston
enters the notion of "normal-size helpings." I feel an infarction, he hints that we eat too damn
much. With his intitial notion of sanity I'll have to read some more. Hopefully his foundation
isn't built on extrapolating GI to every individual when it's pure caloric overload.

Quoted message said:

This is all very interesting and terrific in helping me understand how this diet works. I have one
other question, which is, what is the purpose of the strict two week beginning period? What effect
does it have and what if someone "skips" it?

How I understand it, these two weeks are designed to deplete your glycogen stores and break your
carb addiction. After that, you should start burning fat (dietary fat at firts) and loose carb
cravings. Glycogen keeps a lot of water (in 1:3 ratio, I think), so that leads to your impressive
initial wight loss in Atkins/South Beach.

If you skip it, you will probably get same results, but after much longer time, with high
probability of long period of cravings and getting off... It is likely better to overcome this in
two weeks - and that is what induction is for.

I think that in fact any diet must lead to glycogen depletion, it is just that high-fat diet does
this once in relatively short time and keeps glycogen stores low afterwards.

Also, just my personal idea - if you do not loose too much weight during these two weeks (not
cheating), your glycogen stores probably were not overflowing which in turn means carbs probably are
not causing your problem.

Mirek

Weight loss by itself is not what causes an improvement in blood lipids in those on low-carb diets.
The lack of chronically high blood glucose levels is what causes the improvement in blood lipids.

redflagsweekly.com2003 nov22P.htmlOpen ↗

The strict 2 week induction will get you over the carb cravings quickly. If you skip it, you will
still lose weight, but you may have a harder time with the cravings and obviously it will take a bit
longer to lose the weight.

TC

[email hidden] (Chip Spear) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

This is all very interesting and terrific in helping me understand how this diet works. I have one
other question, which is, what is the purpose of the strict two week beginning period? What effect
does it have and what if someone "skips" it?

Doug Freese <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mirek Fidler said:

>Weight loss is what causes cholesterol to go down, along with exercise which helps improve its
>composition. Effect of overeating meat may be opposite, but less, than the effect of weight
>loss.

Yes, and that is why Atkins causes more favorable lipid changes than Ornish, while you are
loosing more using Ornish's high-carb plan....

Your reply reminds me of Frost's poem "Fire and ice" with Atkins being fire and Ornish ice.
Frankly I'd rather not die either way. They are both extreme ends of the spectrum in philosophy
and results. You may consider Atkins leading edge I find him bleeding edge and just wait,
they'll be a new fad diet next year with someone else with the desire to make a few bucks off
the notion of another fad diet. Oh wait, the immediate horizon shows "The South Beach Diet."

From the South Beach hype page: ""...the real value of the book is its sound nutritional
advice. It retains the best part of the Atkins regime – meat – while losing the tenet that all
carbs should be avoided. Instead, Agatston encourages a well-balanced diet that includes plenty
of fruit, vegetables and whole grains, plus nuts and healthy oils..."

Sounds like a turn in the road back to balance less the simple useless carbs. My God Agatston
enters the notion of "normal-size helpings." I feel an infarction, he hints that we eat too damn
much. With his intitial notion of sanity I'll have to read some more. Hopefully his foundation
isn't built on extrapolating GI to every individual when it's pure caloric overload.