Do these scammers actually get anything?

It's a common scam. Unfortunately some people are naive enough to go for
it. Here's a description (from my local craigslist):
___________________________________________

distant buyer offers a high-value (but fake) cashier's check in exchange
for your item

* you receive an odd email (similar to the examples you gave)
offering to buy your item site unseen.
* cashier's check is offered for your sale item, as a deposit for
an apartment, or just about anything else.
* value of cashier's check often far exceeds your item - buyer asks
you to wire the balance via money transfer service
* banks will often cash these fake checks AND THEN HOLD YOU
RESPONSIBLE WHEN THE CHECK FAILS TO CLEAR
* scam often involves a 3rd party (shipping agent, business
associate owing buyer money, etc)
___________________________________________

Joselas said:

I put 3 for sale ads in different web based classifieds for a tandem bike.
I have received several replies from totally broken english obvious
scammers. I don't get it? What exactly is the scam? What are they trying
to get? Does anybody actually fall for whatever they are doing? I can't
imagine anyone would engage any of the emails I received. Here is the text
of some of them:

___________________________________________
...examples were here....

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

It's a common scam. Unfortunately some people are naive enough to go for
it. Here's a description (from my local craigslist):
___________________________________________

distant buyer offers a high-value (but fake) cashier's check in exchange
for your item

* you receive an odd email (similar to the examples you gave)
offering to buy your item site unseen.
* cashier's check is offered for your sale item, as a deposit for
an apartment, or just about anything else.
* value of cashier's check often far exceeds your item - buyer asks
you to wire the balance via money transfer service
* banks will often cash these fake checks AND THEN HOLD YOU
RESPONSIBLE WHEN THE CHECK FAILS TO CLEAR
* scam often involves a 3rd party (shipping agent, business
associate owing buyer money, etc)

It's easy to protect yourself from these scams and still allow for the
possibility that they might be legitimate, simply by not shipping until
the check clears.

....

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

It's a common scam. Unfortunately some people are naive enough to go for
it. Here's a description (from my local craigslist):
___________________________________________

distant buyer offers a high-value (but fake) cashier's check in exchange
for your item

* you receive an odd email (similar to the examples you gave)
offering to buy your item site unseen.
* cashier's check is offered for your sale item, as a deposit for
an apartment, or just about anything else.
* value of cashier's check often far exceeds your item - buyer asks
you to wire the balance via money transfer service
* banks will often cash these fake checks AND THEN HOLD YOU
RESPONSIBLE WHEN THE CHECK FAILS TO CLEAR
* scam often involves a 3rd party (shipping agent, business
associate owing buyer money, etc)

It's easy to protect yourself from these scams and still allow for the
possibility that they might be legitimate, simply by not shipping until
the check clears.

Hold on there just a sec... One of the OP's scams involved asking for bank
account information so they could do a transfer. Waiting for the check to
clear in this instance would be waiting for your account to drain.

I usually tell them that I have a friend who works in their area and that I
would like to arrange to do the transaction in person. When I ask for their
physical location to meet they disappear.

Be careful

Dave Reckoning
Noblesville Indiana

Joselas said:

I put 3 for sale ads in different web based classifieds for a tandem

bike.

Quoted message said:

I have received several replies from totally broken english obvious
scammers. I don't get it? What exactly is the scam? What are they

trying

Quoted message said:

to get? Does anybody actually fall for whatever they are doing? I

can't

Quoted message said:

imagine anyone would engage any of the emails I received. Here is

the text

Quoted message said:

of some of them:

Some of them were just asking for the price of the bike. I don't
understand how that tips you off that it is a scam. And I also didn't
realize it's a requirement of being honest to have perfect command of
the English language. If it is, well, GW Bush is a _total_ scammer.
😉

It's a good idea to put the price in the ad anyway - unless you like
fielding pointless emails. There is absolutely no reason to play cat
and mouse with the price, unless you're the one that has no idea of
what it's worth and don't know how much you'd take for it.

The USPS money order is one of the safest ways to receive money. You
bring the money order to the post office, they check it against a list
that's updated daily, and they give you cash. They don't ask for you
bank account number and there's nothing of yours they can hold it
against. So what's the problem?

R

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Joselas said:

I put 3 for sale ads in different web based classifieds for a tandem

bike.

Quoted message said:

I have received several replies from totally broken english obvious
scammers. I don't get it? What exactly is the scam? What are they

trying

Quoted message said:

to get? Does anybody actually fall for whatever they are doing? I

can't

Quoted message said:

imagine anyone would engage any of the emails I received. Here is

the text

Quoted message said:

of some of them:

Some of them were just asking for the price of the bike. I don't
understand how that tips you off that it is a scam. And I also didn't
realize it's a requirement of being honest to have perfect command of
the English language. If it is, well, GW Bush is a _total_ scammer.
😉

It's a good idea to put the price in the ad anyway - unless you like
fielding pointless emails. There is absolutely no reason to play cat
and mouse with the price, unless you're the one that has no idea of
what it's worth and don't know how much you'd take for it.

The USPS money order is one of the safest ways to receive money. You
bring the money order to the post office, they check it against a list
that's updated daily, and they give you cash. They don't ask for you
bank account number and there's nothing of yours they can hold it
against. So what's the problem?

The problem is with forged or stolen money orders which won't clear,
though I didn't know the USPS ones were checked at the time of cashing.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

Dave Reckoning said:

One of the OP's scams involved asking for bank account
information so they could do a transfer. Waiting for
the check to clear in this instance would be waiting
for your account to drain.

Not so: I have sold a number of bicycles and parts to foreign buyers who
paid by wire ["institutional transfer"] without incident. There is no
easy way for anyone to "drain" your account by wire: that is just a
widespread "urban myth". All that is needed to receive a wire transfer
is your bank's ABA Routing Number and your account number, both of which
are printed at the bottom of every paper check for everyone to see; but
to have money sent from your account, fraudsters need to be more clever
than to merely see those numbers: outgoing funds wired from your account
need to be authorised by you and approved by your banker.

--
"Bicycling is a healthy and manly pursuit with much
to recommend it, and, unlike other foolish crazes,
it has not died out." -- The Daily Telegraph (1877)

RicodJour said:

Joselas said:

I put 3 for sale ads in different web based classifieds for a tandem

bike.

Quoted message said:

I have received several replies from totally broken english obvious
scammers. I don't get it? What exactly is the scam? What are they

trying

Quoted message said:

to get? Does anybody actually fall for whatever they are doing? I

can't

Quoted message said:

imagine anyone would engage any of the emails I received. Here is

the text

Quoted message said:

of some of them:

Some of them were just asking for the price of the bike. I don't
understand how that tips you off that it is a scam.

Because these are all generic, boilerplate letters. Note that some say "what is
the price" others say "the price is okay." These reek of Scam.

Quoted message said:

And I also didn't
realize it's a requirement of being honest to have perfect command of
the English language. If it is, well, GW Bush is a _total_ scammer.
😉

A lot of people have less than perfect English, but it doesn't read the same as
these scammers. Really.

Quoted message said:

It's a good idea to put the price in the ad anyway - unless you like
fielding pointless emails. There is absolutely no reason to play cat
and mouse with the price, unless you're the one that has no idea of
what it's worth and don't know how much you'd take for it.

Notice the emails that said the price was okay.

Quoted message said:

The USPS money order is one of the safest ways to receive money. You
bring the money order to the post office, they check it against a list
that's updated daily, and they give you cash. They don't ask for you
bank account number and there's nothing of yours they can hold it
against. So what's the problem?

Nobody offered him a "USPS money order." He was offered a "United Postal Money
Order." Got a laser printer?

Dude, there is a lot of bad paper going around out there. Now maybe you're naive
or just want to see someone else get burned, but your trust without verification
approach is just foolish these days.

Ron

David Kerber said:

The problem is with forged or stolen money orders which won't clear,
though I didn't know the USPS ones were checked at the time of cashing.

Simple: I'll send the money when your check clears. Bye Bye!

jim

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

David Kerber said:

The problem is with forged or stolen money orders which won't clear,
though I didn't know the USPS ones were checked at the time of cashing.

Simple: I'll send the money when your check clears. Bye Bye!

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying in the previous message.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

One reason the phony money order scam works is because it DOES clear.
Initially. It's only later that your bank comes back to you after they
could not get paid for it.

In article <[email hidden]>, David Kerber

ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

David Kerber said:

The problem is with forged or stolen money orders which won't clear,
though I didn't know the USPS ones were checked at the time of cashing.

Simple: I'll send the money when your check clears. Bye Bye!

Yes, that's exactly what I was saying in the previous message.

OK, enough - why waste your time when you know it's a scam? Are you so wired
to get the money that you're willing to take the chance?

Here's the other side of the story -

You respond to the email which is asking for pictures and your address etc.
You've just given this guy enough information to steal your identity, your
picture can be used in an ebay scam to cheat some other person and a
criminal now knows your address and can usually figure out a way to break
into your house when you're out of town or at work.

NEVER answer these letters. NEVER.

In another case someone actually went to Nigeria and was robbed and
murdered.

If you see an ad on Ebay that is advertising "any size" frame etc. for a
cheap price avoid it because that's the guy who has your picture and is
using it to scam maybe even you.

"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

It's a common scam. Unfortunately some people are naive enough to go for
it. Here's a description (from my local craigslist):
___________________________________________

distant buyer offers a high-value (but fake) cashier's check in exchange
for your item

* you receive an odd email (similar to the examples you gave)
offering to buy your item site unseen.
* cashier's check is offered for your sale item, as a deposit for
an apartment, or just about anything else.
* value of cashier's check often far exceeds your item - buyer asks
you to wire the balance via money transfer service
* banks will often cash these fake checks AND THEN HOLD YOU
RESPONSIBLE WHEN THE CHECK FAILS TO CLEAR
* scam often involves a 3rd party (shipping agent, business
associate owing buyer money, etc)

It's easy to protect yourself from these scams and still allow for the
possibility that they might be legitimate, simply by not shipping until
the check clears.

...

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

RonSonic said:

On 31 Mar 2005 07:05:05 -0800, "RicodJour" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Joselas said:

I put 3 for sale ads in different web based classifieds for a tandem

bike.

Quoted message said:

I have received several replies from totally broken english obvious
scammers. I don't get it? What exactly is the scam? What are they

trying

Quoted message said:

to get? Does anybody actually fall for whatever they are doing? I

can't

Quoted message said:

imagine anyone would engage any of the emails I received. Here is

the text

Quoted message said:

of some of them:

Some of them were just asking for the price of the bike. I don't
understand how that tips you off that it is a scam.

Because these are all generic, boilerplate letters. Note that some
say "what is the price" others say "the price is okay." These reek of
Scam.

Quoted message said:

And I also didn't
realize it's a requirement of being honest to have perfect command of
the English language. If it is, well, GW Bush is a _total_ scammer.
😉

A lot of people have less than perfect English, but it doesn't read
the same as these scammers. Really.

Quoted message said:

It's a good idea to put the price in the ad anyway - unless you like
fielding pointless emails. There is absolutely no reason to play cat
and mouse with the price, unless you're the one that has no idea of
what it's worth and don't know how much you'd take for it.

Notice the emails that said the price was okay.

Quoted message said:

The USPS money order is one of the safest ways to receive money. You
bring the money order to the post office, they check it against a
list that's updated daily, and they give you cash. They don't ask
for you bank account number and there's nothing of yours they can
hold it against. So what's the problem?

Nobody offered him a "USPS money order." He was offered a "United
Postal Money Order." Got a laser printer?

Dude, there is a lot of bad paper going around out there. Now maybe
you're naive or just want to see someone else get burned, but your
trust without verification approach is just foolish these days.

Ron

There *ARE*, and I have received, counterfeit USPS Money Orders coming from
Nigeria and other African/European countries.

Waiting for the scammers 'cashiers' check to clear in not good either. If
it's a half-way decent counterfeit your bank will clear it right away. When
the bad check comes back as fraudulent, you bank will debit that amount of
money from your account. Meanwhile if you've shipped the bike or Wester
Unioned any money to the scammers. you are screwed.

This type of scam has been extensively written about and discussed on many
forums. If you are interested in their details, e-mail me and I'll refer you
to them.

RonSonic said:

On 31 Mar 2005 07:05:05 -0800, "RicodJour" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Joselas said:

I put 3 for sale ads in different web based classifieds for a

tandem

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bike.

Quoted message said:

I have received several replies from totally broken english

obvious

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

scammers. I don't get it? What exactly is the scam? What are

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trying

Quoted message said:

to get? Does anybody actually fall for whatever they are doing? I

can't

Quoted message said:

imagine anyone would engage any of the emails I received. Here is

the text

Quoted message said:

of some of them:

Some of them were just asking for the price of the bike. I don't
understand how that tips you off that it is a scam.

Because these are all generic, boilerplate letters. Note that some

say "what is

Quoted message said:

the price" others say "the price is okay." These reek of Scam.

They are not all "generic" email. Some are definitely a scam, others,
it's not so clear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And I also didn't
realize it's a requirement of being honest to have perfect command

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the English language. If it is, well, GW Bush is a _total_ scammer.
😉

A lot of people have less than perfect English, but it doesn't read

the same as

Quoted message said:

these scammers. Really.

There was one where the person just asked for a price. What tipped you
off on that one?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's a good idea to put the price in the ad anyway - unless you like
fielding pointless emails. There is absolutely no reason to play

cat

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and mouse with the price, unless you're the one that has no idea of
what it's worth and don't know how much you'd take for it.

Notice the emails that said the price was okay.

Those would be scammers. Or idiots. Both to be avoided.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The USPS money order is one of the safest ways to receive money.

You

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bring the money order to the post office, they check it against a

list

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that's updated daily, and they give you cash. They don't ask for

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bank account number and there's nothing of yours they can hold it
against. So what's the problem?

Nobody offered him a "USPS money order." He was offered a "United

Postal Money

Quoted message said:

Order." Got a laser printer?

As Ed McMahon would say, "You are correct, sir!" But it is not clear
to me whether the sender was scamming with a bogus money order, or just
got the name wrong.

As far as the laser printer:
Here's a link to the USPS money order page.
http://www.usps.com/missingmoneyorders/security.htm
A laser printer isn't going to give you a believable see-through
watermark and certainly won't duplicate a security thread.

Quoted message said:

Dude, there is a lot of bad paper going around out there. Now maybe

you're naive

Quoted message said:

or just want to see someone else get burned, but your trust without

verification

Quoted message said:

approach is just foolish these days.

Naive? On occasion, but this isn't one of them. Life is full of
tradeoffs. Selling online is one. The "safest" way to get paid is to
have someone come, pick up the bike and give you cash. In my mind it's
also one of the riskiest. I don't want random people coming over to my
house for obvious reasons.

Safeguarding yourself in any online transaction is to not rocket
science. Don't give out your banking information, excess personal
information, and avoid depositing ANY form of check/money order in your
account. Even if the buyer is a saint, there could be an emergency on
their end, not enough funds in their account to cover the instrument,
and your bank will hold it against YOU. Don't deposit.

The USPS money order, taken to the PO, gives you cash in hand and no
risk. It's up to the Post Office to verify the money order. You don't
have an account with them so there's no way for them to back charge
you. So where's the risk? A little time spent? Hardly worth
mentioning.

I agree with your can't-be-too-careful mentality, but the point is to
sell the bike for the maximum amount of money, right? Throwing out the
potentially good with the obviously bad won't help in achieving that
objective.

R

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

One reason the phony money order scam works is because it DOES clear.
Initially. It's only later that your bank comes back to you after they
could not get paid for it.

Ask your bank to only clear the funds when the check really clears.
--------------
Alex

"Alex Rodriguez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

One reason the phony money order scam works is because it DOES clear.
Initially. It's only later that your bank comes back to you after they
could not get paid for it.

Ask your bank to only clear the funds when the check really clears.
--------------
Alex

Unfortunately, as stated previously, this is open to interpretation. We had
a check returned by the bank something like 6 months after we deposited
it.... insufficient funds. Fortunately, this was not a scam and the customer
made good on the payment. But the length of time since deposit and supposed
clearance was alarming.
The bank branch manager said the bank can debit an account anytime in the
case of a bad check... apparently there is no statute of limitations. Why do
I feel the need for vaseline when dealing with banks?

Stuart Winsor
Ground Zero Cycles
[email hidden]

RicodJour said:

RonSonic said:

On 31 Mar 2005 07:05:05 -0800, "RicodJour" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Joselas wrote:
> I put 3 for sale ads in different web based classifieds for a

tandem

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bike.
> I have received several replies from totally broken english

obvious

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> scammers. I don't get it? What exactly is the scam? What are

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trying
> to get? Does anybody actually fall for whatever they are doing? I
can't
> imagine anyone would engage any of the emails I received. Here is
the text
> of some of them:

Some of them were just asking for the price of the bike. I don't
understand how that tips you off that it is a scam.

Because these are all generic, boilerplate letters. Note that some

say "what is

Quoted message said:

the price" others say "the price is okay." These reek of Scam.

They are not all "generic" email. Some are definitely a scam, others,
it's not so clear.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And I also didn't
realize it's a requirement of being honest to have perfect command

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the English language. If it is, well, GW Bush is a _total_ scammer.
😉

A lot of people have less than perfect English, but it doesn't read

the same as

Quoted message said:

these scammers. Really.

There was one where the person just asked for a price. What tipped you
off on that one?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's a good idea to put the price in the ad anyway - unless you like
fielding pointless emails. There is absolutely no reason to play

cat

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and mouse with the price, unless you're the one that has no idea of
what it's worth and don't know how much you'd take for it.

Notice the emails that said the price was okay.

Those would be scammers. Or idiots. Both to be avoided.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The USPS money order is one of the safest ways to receive money.

You

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bring the money order to the post office, they check it against a

list

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that's updated daily, and they give you cash. They don't ask for

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bank account number and there's nothing of yours they can hold it
against. So what's the problem?

Nobody offered him a "USPS money order." He was offered a "United

Postal Money

Quoted message said:

Order." Got a laser printer?

As Ed McMahon would say, "You are correct, sir!" But it is not clear
to me whether the sender was scamming with a bogus money order, or just
got the name wrong.

As far as the laser printer:
Here's a link to the USPS money order page.
http://www.usps.com/missingmoneyorders/security.htm
A laser printer isn't going to give you a believable see-through
watermark and certainly won't duplicate a security thread.

Quoted message said:

Dude, there is a lot of bad paper going around out there. Now maybe

you're naive

Quoted message said:

or just want to see someone else get burned, but your trust without

verification

Quoted message said:

approach is just foolish these days.

Naive? On occasion, but this isn't one of them. Life is full of
tradeoffs. Selling online is one. The "safest" way to get paid is to
have someone come, pick up the bike and give you cash. In my mind it's
also one of the riskiest. I don't want random people coming over to my
house for obvious reasons.

Safeguarding yourself in any online transaction is to not rocket
science. Don't give out your banking information, excess personal
information, and avoid depositing ANY form of check/money order in your
account. Even if the buyer is a saint, there could be an emergency on
their end, not enough funds in their account to cover the instrument,
and your bank will hold it against YOU. Don't deposit.

The USPS money order, taken to the PO, gives you cash in hand and no
risk. It's up to the Post Office to verify the money order. You don't
have an account with them so there's no way for them to back charge
you. So where's the risk? A little time spent? Hardly worth
mentioning.

I agree with your can't-be-too-careful mentality, but the point is to
sell the bike for the maximum amount of money, right? Throwing out the
potentially good with the obviously bad won't help in achieving that
objective.

True enough. It does cost potential profit to minimize risk and we all draw that
line a little differently. There's probably 3/4 of the planet I'll just not want
to try selling to and a major portion of the remainder that is more hassle than
increasing the potential market is worth.

Ron

RonSonic said:

True enough. It does cost potential profit to minimize risk and we

all draw that

Quoted message said:

line a little differently. There's probably 3/4 of the planet I'll

just not want

Quoted message said:

to try selling to and a major portion of the remainder that is more

hassle than

Quoted message said:

increasing the potential market is worth.

Exactly! You're trying to achieve that nice profit/risk/hassle ratio.
Well said.

R