General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Do Calories Count?

Started by Rick King · · Last activity · 24 posts · 475 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
17 March 2006
Last activity
24 March 2006
Original author
Rick King
Posts
24
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
475
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 21–24 of 24
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Roger Zoul said:

    Even for the "metabolically dysfunctional" I can't imagine someone gaining
    weight on 1000-cal LF diet (that would *seem* to be possible based on the
    statement you made above regarding your maintenance on LC vs LF). To me, it
    just doesn't make sense (still 🙂 ). I personally was able to lose 100 lbs
    on a LF diet (didn't calorie count) with lots of exercise, while eating big
    mounts of rice & pasta & bread (but still doing [censored] of exercise). All
    while being a T2 who started this after a good stretch of inactivity. Of
    course, it is all still a YMMV kind of thing, but we are all humans, so
    there ought to be some similarities.

    I think that the reason this is controversial at all is because *all*
    sides of the argument are true.

    If you eat low-calorie, whether low-fat, low-carb, or whatever - you do
    lose weight.

    If you eat low-carb, you can eat more calories than on low-fat and
    still lose weight.

    If you eat low-carb, and eat *enough* calories, you will not lose
    weight. There *is* a metabolic advantage to low-carb, likely moreso
    for those with IR or diabetes, but... you can overwhelm that advantage
    by eating too many calories.

    It comes down to ketones vs. sugars in metabolism. Fats break down to
    ketones, which can be used for energy *or* discarded if you don't burn
    them all, whereas carbs break down to sugars which have to be burnt up
    to be discarded.

    When I talk about ketosis, I don't mean peeing on a stick, but the
    actual underlying biochemistry, which occurs anytime you don't eat
    enough carbs to prevent it. Some of the ketones present when you have
    a glucagon-mediated biochemistry are lost via respiration and/or
    urine... they're not completly broken-down, thus your body "loses" some
    of those calories.

    Ketones are physically smaller than sugars. You don't generally lose
    sugar through urine unless you have *very* high bg.

    You also don't lose carbs through respiration, your body has to break
    the sugars way down to the level of C02 to exhale the products of carb
    metabolism. But even if you don't have ketone-breath to be noticeable,
    you are losing some ketones in your breath.

    So... your body burns carbs more efficiently, extracting every bit of
    energy from them, than it does fats.

    And, of course, there's also the hunger-limiting advantages of eating
    low-carb.

    The thing is... that you have an advantage doesn't mean you *will*
    succeeed. You *can* eat enough calories on low-carb to not only not
    lose weight, but to actually gain it. Any number of advantages can be
    overcome by enough bullheaded stupidity on the part of the dieter.

    The *only* time I think calories don't matter at *all* is on induction,
    because weight loss isn't the goal anyways, but switching over from
    insulin-mediated to glucagon-mediated biochemistry. *Just* sticking to
    low-carb long enough to make that switch is the important thing. It's
    *preparatory* to weight-loss, and I don't personally expect to lose
    *any* fat during induction. In fact, I think that it's very likely the
    only weight loss that occurs during induction at all is water loss.
    There's withdrawal and cravings to deal with, and a whole lot of
    overeating occurs until the first week or two is past.

    So... I think it's *fine* to eat 3000, 4000 or even more calories on
    induction, prepartory to actual weight loss, but if someone does that
    beyond the first week or two... they'll gain other advantages of
    low-carb dieting, but not lose weight.

  2. [email hidden] wrote:
    :: Roger Zoul wrote:
    ::
    ::: Even for the "metabolically dysfunctional" I can't imagine someone
    ::: gaining weight on 1000-cal LF diet (that would *seem* to be
    ::: possible based on the statement you made above regarding your
    ::: maintenance on LC vs LF). To me, it just doesn't make sense (still
    ::: 🙂 ). I personally was able to lose 100 lbs on a LF diet (didn't
    ::: calorie count) with lots of exercise, while eating big mounts of
    ::: rice & pasta & bread (but still doing [censored] of exercise). All
    ::: while being a T2 who started this after a good stretch of
    ::: inactivity. Of course, it is all still a YMMV kind of thing, but
    ::: we are all humans, so there ought to be some similarities.
    ::
    :: I think that the reason this is controversial at all is because *all*
    :: sides of the argument are true.
    ::
    :: If you eat low-calorie, whether low-fat, low-carb, or whatever - you
    :: do lose weight.
    ::
    :: If you eat low-carb, you can eat more calories than on low-fat and
    :: still lose weight.
    ::
    :: If you eat low-carb, and eat *enough* calories, you will not lose
    :: weight. There *is* a metabolic advantage to low-carb, likely moreso
    :: for those with IR or diabetes, but... you can overwhelm that
    :: advantage by eating too many calories.
    ::
    :: It comes down to ketones vs. sugars in metabolism. Fats break down
    :: to ketones, which can be used for energy *or* discarded if you don't
    :: burn them all, whereas carbs break down to sugars which have to be
    :: burnt up to be discarded.
    ::
    :: When I talk about ketosis, I don't mean peeing on a stick, but the
    :: actual underlying biochemistry, which occurs anytime you don't eat
    :: enough carbs to prevent it. Some of the ketones present when you
    :: have a glucagon-mediated biochemistry are lost via respiration and/or
    :: urine... they're not completly broken-down, thus your body "loses"
    :: some of those calories.
    ::
    :: Ketones are physically smaller than sugars. You don't generally lose
    :: sugar through urine unless you have *very* high bg.
    ::
    :: You also don't lose carbs through respiration, your body has to break
    :: the sugars way down to the level of C02 to exhale the products of
    :: carb metabolism. But even if you don't have ketone-breath to be
    :: noticeable, you are losing some ketones in your breath.
    ::
    :: So... your body burns carbs more efficiently, extracting every bit of
    :: energy from them, than it does fats.
    ::
    :: And, of course, there's also the hunger-limiting advantages of eating
    :: low-carb.
    ::
    :: The thing is... that you have an advantage doesn't mean you *will*
    :: succeeed. You *can* eat enough calories on low-carb to not only not
    :: lose weight, but to actually gain it. Any number of advantages can
    :: be overcome by enough bullheaded stupidity on the part of the dieter.
    ::
    :: The *only* time I think calories don't matter at *all* is on
    :: induction, because weight loss isn't the goal anyways, but switching
    :: over from insulin-mediated to glucagon-mediated biochemistry.
    :: *Just* sticking to low-carb long enough to make that switch is the
    :: important thing. It's
    :: *preparatory* to weight-loss, and I don't personally expect to lose
    :: *any* fat during induction. In fact, I think that it's very likely
    :: the only weight loss that occurs during induction at all is water
    :: loss. There's withdrawal and cravings to deal with, and a whole lot
    :: of overeating occurs until the first week or two is past.
    ::
    :: So... I think it's *fine* to eat 3000, 4000 or even more calories on
    :: induction, prepartory to actual weight loss, but if someone does that
    :: beyond the first week or two... they'll gain other advantages of
    :: low-carb dieting, but not lose weight.

    Thanks. I think that's a nice way to put it all together.

  3. Susan said:

    x-no-archive: yes

    Roger Zoul said:


    I *think* I'm referring to the one that showed something like a 300
    cal/day difference on LC versus something else (lf?).

    Hmmm. Not sure I recall that, though it sounds vaguely familiar. The
    studies that's shown a diff have it closer to 50% more calories on low
    carb *and* more weight loss.

    That has not been shown anywhere! Try to cite any genuine study that
    remotely aproaches that figure. You can't - can you? You people are so
    full of [censored]. Low carb has merit for sure but only in appetite
    suppression making it easier to keep calories down. The calorie
    efficiency difference is minute, if at all, nowhere near fifty percent.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    The first question that always comes to mind when hearing this is
    whether account was made for the big water weight drop that happens on
    LC.

    That's clearly a big part of the diff in the short term studies, but
    less so when the study is 6 months or more. I dunno about you, but my
    water loss ended within two weeks. I think, as I mentioned, that it's
    part of the explanation for why the difference is gone by one year.

    I seem

    Quoted message said:

    to remember this was done in at least one study I've read. Even still,
    I don't think it is generally accepted with in the medical/scientific
    community that there is a such thing as a "metabolic advantange", and
    while a relative "handful" of studies may demonstrate such, perhaps
    the complexity of the issue is hiding what's really going on.

    Roger, you're nicer than I am. I don't think the complexity of the
    issue is hiding it from *us*, just from the cement brained researchers
    who present only one possibile explanation for each finding. ;-)

    Or the cement brained idiots who close their mind to any research that
    doesn't support the way they want things to be.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    Even for the "metabolically dysfunctional" I can't imagine someone
    gaining weight on 1000-cal LF diet (that would *seem* to be possible
    based on the statement you made above regarding your maintenance on LC
    vs LF).

    I gained on more than 800 per day back then; my IR was extreme. I was
    thin, BTW.

    Horse Puckey! Someone in a coma burns more than 800 calories per day.

    Quoted message said:


    To me, it

    Quoted message said:

    just doesn't make sense (still 🙂 ). I personally was able to lose
    100 lbs on a LF diet (didn't calorie count) with lots of exercise,
    while eating big mounts of rice & pasta & bread (but still doing
    [censored] of exercise).

    I was able to lose on LF too, til I couldn't anymore.

    All

    Quoted message said:

    while being a T2 who started this after a good stretch of inactivity.
    Of course, it is all still a YMMV kind of thing, but we are all
    humans, so there ought to be some similarities.

    I suspect our variations are at least as great. You and I are at two
    extremes, you with your DM control and non DM results, me with the
    extreme nature of my IR and slowness of my metabolism.

    Get off your ass and do some physical work and your metabolism will
    speed up. Slow metabolism equals sloth, nothing more.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    ::
    :: But calories still matter; some of them matter differently,
    :: especially to those of us with dysregulated metabolism.

    Then get off your ass and regulate it!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Yes, I do agree. Still, I wonder how well we understand the
    dysregulated meabolism.

    Quoted message said:

    Genes, illness, lifestyle, natural human variety. If you were to read
    the PCOS group, for example, there are so many obese women there
    (extreme IR) who diliently diet and exercise with no weight loss til
    they get on LC or LC with metformine for IR.

    Not diligently enough. No one can diet and exercise properly without
    weight loss unless they have a genuine medical problem. All claim to
    have such a problem, but only a very small percent really do. The rest
    simply lie to excuse their lazy asses.

    Veritas

  4. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Susan wrote:

    You're somewhat right. There is a small "metabolic advantage" with low carb
    diets, but it's effect is overstated in LC forums and by diet book
    authors... to the unfortunate detriment of poor LC dieters. Believing these
    diets are magic will only hurt yourself.

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.