Do brake levers point the wrong way?

Quoted message said:

Looking at bicycle brake levers, I'm wondering if they're
mounted backwards and pointing the wrong way.

Our strongest fingers grab the lever nearest the pivot, as
if we're trying to work a car jack handle by stepping on it
where it attaches to the jack.

I notice that all my fingers tend to slide down toward the
end of the lever for more leverage.

Obviously, the design that puts the free end of the lever
toward the outside of a straight handlebar (or sticking down
on a ram's-horn bar) makes the cables easy to route.

But is there any other reason for this bad-leverage
approach, which gives my feeble pinkies lots of leverage at
the expense of my powerful index fingers:

With my Avid SD-7 levers, I never have more than my index and middle
finger on the levers, and that's only going downhill for an extended
time. More often than not, it's index finger only. The other fingers
are wrapped around the grip.

I sometimes use my middle finger to brake while shifting via my thumb
and index finger (SRAM GripShift.)

What poor brakes require more than just two fingers??

E.P.

Carl Fogel said:

Looking at bicycle brake levers, I'm wondering if they're mounted
backwards and pointing the wrong way.

Quoted message said:

Our strongest fingers grab the lever nearest the pivot, as if we're
trying to work a car jack handle by stepping on it where it attaches
to the jack.

I think you aren't using the brakes the way the designer intended.
In hard braking, that braking where control and strength play a role.
The crook in the drop bar break lever is designed for two finger use,
the index and middle finger that resides in the crook, while the
others grasp the bars.

Quoted message said:

I notice that all my fingers tend to slide down toward the end of
the lever for more leverage.

You are engaging too many fingers, use two and get strong. Braking on
rough roads should make obvious that you must also grasp the round
part of the handlebar with the ring and little finger while braking.

Quoted message said:

Obviously, the design that puts the free end of the lever toward the
outside of a straight handlebar (or sticking down on a ram's-horn
bar) makes the cables easy to route.

That's not so obvious because the middle and strongest finger resides
in the crook of the lever and that is where is stays if you brake
hard. The alternative is to ride with thumbs on the brake hoods and
brake with the same two fingers reaching over the front of the lever.
That is usually adequate for moderate speed trimming.

Quoted message said:

But is there any other reason for this bad-leverage approach, which
gives my feeble pinkies lots of leverage at the expense of my
powerful index fingers:

Quoted message said:

_________ lever _________
_________\__________/_________
bar

Instead of levers like this that would maximize the leverage
for my stronger fingers:

Quoted message said:

_________ lever ________
/_____________________________\
bar

Is this a MTB or a road bicycle? On a road bicycle one uses two
fingers.

For a rod bicycle your problem is with the operator. Brake levers
like those that most of us use were (fortunately) developed over years
of racing use before the avocational carbon-titanium-pro outfits hit
the market. There are good reasons for the shape of the equipment
which I find functionally useful.

[email hidden]

Carl Fogel said:

Looking at bicycle brake levers, I'm wondering if they're
mounted backwards and pointing the wrong way.

Our strongest fingers grab the lever nearest the pivot, as
if we're trying to work a car jack handle by stepping on it
where it attaches to the jack.

I notice that all my fingers tend to slide down toward the
end of the lever for more leverage.

Obviously, the design that puts the free end of the lever
toward the outside of a straight handlebar (or sticking down
on a ram's-horn bar) makes the cables easy to route.

But is there any other reason for this bad-leverage
approach, which gives my feeble pinkies lots of leverage at
the expense of my powerful index fingers:

You're correct as far as the typical setup is concerned. There are
levers that work the other way, commonly called "reverse levers."

See: http://harriscyclery.net/site/page.cfm?PageID=49&Category=172&type=T

Paradoxically, these are most often seen installed in cowhorn
handlebars, where they get doubly reversed, resulting in the same problem.

My old Solex moped used to have similar levers set up as you suggest,
they worked great.

Part of the problem with this is the idea of using 4 fingers on the
lever. This is not commonly necessary. Decent brakes work fine with 3
fingers, and better quality brakes often only require 1 or 2 fingers.

A pet peeve of mine is that most folks install the brake levers too far
outboard. Typical MTB brake levers work better (and are less liable to
suffer damage in a crash) if there's an inch or so betwen the lever
clamp and the handlebar clip. Try it if you don't believe me.

Unfortunately, the silly fad for riser bars makes it impossible to mount
the levers this way on many newer bikes, because the useless extra bend
gets in the way.

Sheldon "Ranting" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| Readers of a historical bent may be interested in my |
| great-grandfather's journal of life as a sailor 1859-1869 |
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Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

A pet peeve of mine is that most folks install the brake levers too far
outboard. Typical MTB brake levers work better (and are less liable to
suffer damage in a crash) if there's an inch or so betwen the lever
clamp and the handlebar clip. Try it if you don't believe me.

Unfortunately, the silly fad for riser bars makes it impossible to mount
the levers this way on many newer bikes, because the useless extra bend
gets in the way.

Yep. I run into this problem when I use BMX bars on a non-BMX bike.
Often I can't mount a lever and a shifter and still have room for a
normal handgrip. (In these cases, I usually put the shifter on the
other side of the bend in the bar.)

I'll happily use a tall stem instead of a tall bar, but first somebody
has to make one.

Chalo Colina

Sheldon Brown said:

Paradoxically, these are most often seen installed in cowhorn
handlebars, where they get doubly reversed, resulting in the same problem.

Pardon my ignorance, but what are cowhorn handlebars? Sheldon's
glossary is not much help:

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cn-z.html#cowhorn

Carl Fogel said:

Looking at bicycle brake levers, I'm wondering if they're
mounted backwards and pointing the wrong way.

The designers of "reverse" style brake levers think so. Along with the
classic old Dia-Compe 188, there are others:

http://www.trispecialties.com/br0680.html

http://qurl.com/nwwfkj

http://www.bikeparts.com/search_results.asp?ID=DA9032

--
"Bicycling is a healthy and manly pursuit with much
to recommend it, and, unlike other foolish crazes,
it has not died out." -- The Daily Telegraph (1877)

I ranted:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A pet peeve of mine is that most folks install the brake levers too far
outboard. Typical MTB brake levers work better (and are less liable to
suffer damage in a crash) if there's an inch or so betwen the lever
clamp and the handlebar clip. Try it if you don't believe me.

Unfortunately, the silly fad for riser bars makes it impossible to mount
the levers this way on many newer bikes, because the useless extra bend
gets in the way.

Chalo said:

Yep. I run into this problem when I use BMX bars on a non-BMX bike.
Often I can't mount a lever and a shifter and still have room for a
normal handgrip. (In these cases, I usually put the shifter on the
other side of the bend in the bar.)

Back in the day, a BMX company called "CW" made a bar that might be just
the ticket for you, if you could find one. It was a BMX bar of elegant
design. The top of the bar was a more or less continuous flat curve,
not too different from a flat MTB bar, and there was a "u" shaped
section below it that connected to the stem, sorry, "neck."

The top section of the bar was standard 7/8" diameter all the way along,
so there was lotsa room to mount all kindsa standard stuff on 'em.

There's a picture of one at http://tinyurl.com/93yjo That one was NOS
and big bux, but there were also knockoffs during the brief period when
these were fashionable. Keep your eye on eBay and you may find one at a
reasonable price.

Sheldon "Some Good Stuff Came Out Of BMX" Brown
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Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

"Todd Tracy" wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but what are cowhorn handlebars?
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
When I was a kid. we called them "steerhorn handlebars," which was
descriptive, and a play on words. The bar goes horizontally across, then up
and back for a few inches, and then flattens and goes back at a steeper
angle for another six inches or so. Total width is about 18 to 20 inches,
as I recall.

Todd Tracy said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Paradoxically, these are most often seen installed in cowhorn
handlebars, where they get doubly reversed, resulting in the same problem.

Pardon my ignorance, but what are cowhorn handlebars? Sheldon's
glossary is not much help:

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cn-z.html#cowhorn

Dear Todd,

Wide, fairly flat handlebars that curve back gently. (Slip
some curved pipes on the ends of a mtb handlebar.)

Regrettably, this is the first image that came up for me:

http://www.cycleking.co.uk/range/1D9995.html

Flatten these a bit:

http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/indbikes.html

Quite popular on older motorcycles.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Looking at bicycle brake levers, I'm wondering if they're
mounted backwards and pointing the wrong way.

There are brake levers intended for foolish bikes whose handlebars
point forwards. If these levers are installed on a real handlebar,
they act like archaic motorcycle brake levers, which pivoted on their
outboard ends.

http://www.stewartengineering.co.uk/images/managed/poppe.jpg
http://www.motorcycle-memories.com/Photos/101600-16.jpg
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/10897903/Antique_Motorcycle_Fn_Four_Cylinder_Original_1907_Rare.jpg

http://img2.uploadimages.net/030273bunting1.JPG

This is a chopper I built for my honey. Putting the brake lever and
shifter on the handlebar ends allows her to use any part of the
curvaceous handlebars for her hands. Imagine that.

Chalo Colina

Leo Lichtman said:

Todd Tracy said:

Pardon my ignorance, but what are cowhorn handlebars?

When I was a kid. we called them "steerhorn handlebars," which was
descriptive, and a play on words. The bar goes horizontally across, then up
and back for a few inches, and then flattens and goes back at a steeper
angle for another six inches or so. Total width is about 18 to 20 inches,
as I recall.

Umm... that's not what Sheldon was talking about. He means the
forward-pointing bars as used on time trial and pursuit bikes.

http://www.gottaridebikes.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/barprologuebase.jpg

Here are some of the levers he's talking about, mounted on some of the
handlebars he's talking about: http://www.canecreek.com/91.html#

Some folks make a version of cowhorn bars by flipping drop bars upside
down and cutting them off partway through the bend.

Chalo Colina

Hi, Carl, I'm not sure that you are correct in your assumption, here.

I believe that most of the stength of your grip comes from the last 3
fingers, not the index finger.

Lewis.

***************

Quoted message said:

Todd Tracy said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Paradoxically, these are most often seen installed in cowhorn
handlebars, where they get doubly reversed, resulting in the same
problem.

Pardon my ignorance, but what are cowhorn handlebars? Sheldon's
glossary is not much help:

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cn-z.html#cowhorn

Wide, fairly flat handlebars that curve back gently. (Slip
some curved pipes on the ends of a mtb handlebar.)

I think you and Leo have been riding your cows backwards 🙂

--
Benjamin Lewis

Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:47:15 -0700, Benjamin Lewis <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Todd Tracy said:

Pardon my ignorance, but what are cowhorn handlebars? Sheldon's
glossary is not much help:

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cn-z.html#cowhorn

Wide, fairly flat handlebars that curve back gently. (Slip
some curved pipes on the ends of a mtb handlebar.)

I think you and Leo have been riding your cows backwards 🙂

In my young day, Cowhorns were the bars now described as Downhill
risers. Now they seem to be low-pro TT bars such as Profile Airwing
etc. I guess it depends what kind of cows you ride. My Deda Aeroblue
is more Aberdeen Angus than Highland Longhorn :-)

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Benjamin Lewis said:

Quoted message said:

Todd Tracy said:

Sheldon Brown wrote:

>
> Paradoxically, these are most often seen installed in cowhorn
> handlebars, where they get doubly reversed, resulting in the same
> problem.

Pardon my ignorance, but what are cowhorn handlebars? Sheldon's
glossary is not much help:

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cn-z.html#cowhorn

Wide, fairly flat handlebars that curve back gently. (Slip
some curved pipes on the ends of a mtb handlebar.)

I think you and Leo have been riding your cows backwards 🙂

Dear Benjamin,

It appears that Leo and I may have been riding older, more
sedate cattle.

Here's the kind of Zebu, or Watusi, bull sometimes driven
along the highway near Pueblo:

http://www.carmenaquarterhorses.com/Cattle/Watusis/11103Yancey%20copy.jpg

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

Quoted message said:

On 2 Jun 2005 21:25:44 -0700, "Todd Tracy"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> Sheldon Brown wrote:
>
>>
>> Paradoxically, these are most often seen installed in cowhorn
>> handlebars, where they get doubly reversed, resulting in the same
>> problem.
>
> Pardon my ignorance, but what are cowhorn handlebars? Sheldon's
> glossary is not much help:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cn-z.html#cowhorn

Wide, fairly flat handlebars that curve back gently. (Slip
some curved pipes on the ends of a mtb handlebar.)

I think you and Leo have been riding your cows backwards 🙂

Dear Benjamin,

It appears that Leo and I may have been riding older, more
sedate cattle.

Here's the kind of Zebu, or Watusi, bull sometimes driven
along the highway near Pueblo:

http://www.carmenaquarterhorses.com/Cattle/Watusis/11103Yancey%20copy.jpg

Heh. As soon as I posted I had a sudden sinking feeling that someone would
locate a cow with backward pointing horns.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.

Benjamin Lewis said:

Quoted message said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

[email hidden] wrote:

> On 2 Jun 2005 21:25:44 -0700, "Todd Tracy"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Sheldon Brown wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Paradoxically, these are most often seen installed in cowhorn
>>> handlebars, where they get doubly reversed, resulting in the same
>>> problem.
>>
>> Pardon my ignorance, but what are cowhorn handlebars? Sheldon's
>> glossary is not much help:
>>
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_cn-z.html#cowhorn
>
> Wide, fairly flat handlebars that curve back gently. (Slip
> some curved pipes on the ends of a mtb handlebar.)

I think you and Leo have been riding your cows backwards 🙂

Dear Benjamin,

It appears that Leo and I may have been riding older, more
sedate cattle.

Here's the kind of Zebu, or Watusi, bull sometimes driven
along the highway near Pueblo:

http://www.carmenaquarterhorses.com/Cattle/Watusis/11103Yancey%20copy.jpg

Heh. As soon as I posted I had a sudden sinking feeling that someone would
locate a cow with backward pointing horns.

Dear Benjamin,

Such cattle may exist, but I think that you were right.

Modern cowhorn handlebars do point forward, unlike the
trailing bars of my long-lost Schwinn, and the horns of most
cows stick out either curve forward or stick out straight
sideways, not backward, the better to reason with cowboys,
matadors, bears, and lions.

http://www.cfhf.net/lyrics/mickey.htm

Yippee yay yippey ye ye hi yippee-o,

Carl Fogel

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 01:05:11 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel said:

Looking at bicycle brake levers, I'm wondering if they're mounted
backwards and pointing the wrong way.

Quoted message said:

Our strongest fingers grab the lever nearest the pivot, as if we're
trying to work a car jack handle by stepping on it where it attaches
to the jack.

I think you aren't using the brakes the way the designer intended.
In hard braking, that braking where control and strength play a role.
The crook in the drop bar break lever is designed for two finger use,
the index and middle finger that resides in the crook, while the
others grasp the bars.

I think he's talking about mtb levers, and in that area, I tend to
agree with the assessment...though I find no problem applying more
than adequate force to existing conventional designs.

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Sheldon Brown said:

Chalo said:

Yep. I run into this problem when I use BMX bars on a non-BMX bike.
Often I can't mount a lever and a shifter and still have room for a
normal handgrip. (In these cases, I usually put the shifter on the
other side of the bend in the bar.)

Back in the day, a BMX company called "CW" made a bar that might be just
the ticket for you, if you could find one. It was a BMX bar of elegant
design. The top of the bar was a more or less continuous flat curve,
not too different from a flat MTB bar, and there was a "u" shaped
section below it that connected to the stem, sorry, "neck."

I remember CW bars, but it had not yet occurred to me that I could use
them to get a more satisfactory perch for shifters and levers. I had
thought of that flat and level center as a good place for lights,
computers, etc., or even to hang a small pannier.

Chalo Colina