Division 1 dopers?

Chachi said:

Anyone have a list of Division 1 cyclists who have been found guilty of
doping in the last two years?

not enough bandwith here for that list.

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

Chachi said:

Anyone have a list of Division 1 cyclists who have been found guilty of
doping in the last two years?

not enough bandwith here for that list.

'Found guilty', there is. 'Accused'? No, not for that one.

Found guilty comes down to Tyler Hamilton and a couple of others. Not David
Millar, he's more than two years ago. Even Landis has not yet been found
guilty, although he probably will be. Basso won't be. Ullrich... probably
won't be. But who else has actually been found guilty in the past couple
of years? Sure, there are accusations - plenty of them; but very, very few
convictions.

The issue of DNA testing isn't going to go away. If the Operacion Puerto
accused don't voluntarily submit to it, it looks like they cannot be
convicted, because the other evidence (apart from the blood) won't stand
up in court. On the other hand, if they don't voluntarily submit to it,
they will never be accepted as truly clean - it will always be seen that
they 'got away with it'. Next year, the sport is just going to have to
insist on licenced riders providing samples for DNA testing.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This mind intentionally left blank ]

Simon Brooke said:

The issue of DNA testing isn't going to go away. If the Operacion Puerto
accused don't voluntarily submit to it, it looks like they cannot be
convicted, because the other evidence (apart from the blood) won't stand
up in court. On the other hand, if they don't voluntarily submit to it,
they will never be accepted as truly clean - it will always be seen that
they 'got away with it'. Next year, the sport is just going to have to
insist on licenced riders providing samples for DNA testing.

Puncturing the perceived "infallibility" of DNA testing (real quick
read):

http://www.click2houston.com/news/2022791/detail.html

That one doesn't mention the outright lying (false court testimony),
hiding of exculpatory evidence, etc. etc.

I'm wondering where the handwringers left their understanding that
"people" need protection from the legal system. Including the right to
refuse to testify against yourself.

Give my DNA to [censored] Pound? The guy who said that Marion Jones needs to
shut her mouth or he would take all her medals away? [censored] "get me a
positive reader in here!" Pound? Not very likely.

"Accepted as truly clean"? How is it that DNA testing will make the
sport "truly clean"? It's just another faulty test, administered by
oh-so-imperfect human beings, like all the rest of the tests that have
been so pitifully bad at catching "dopers".

Put the blame where it *really* belongs: on the rulemakers who make
rules they can't enforce fairly and openly. Blame those who constructed
the framework that ensures, to an athlete, that his competitors can
"cheat" (as defined by said rules) and most likely not be caught.

Do you have a solution, a fix for this problem? I don't. Catching a few
(by the police!) and hanging them hasn't worked so far. Shall we hang
them twice?

"Truly clean"? It's a pretty picture. It isn't real. --D-y

Quoted message said:

Do you have a solution, a fix for this problem? I don't. Catching a few
(by the police!) and hanging them hasn't worked so far. Shall we hang
them twice?

No, hang them then burn them. With a drawing and quartering in
somewhere too.

Did you see this one:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060918/od_nm/india_dc

it didn't exactly work either.

-dB

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

The issue of DNA testing isn't going to go away. If the Operacion Puerto
accused don't voluntarily submit to it, it looks like they cannot be
convicted, because the other evidence (apart from the blood) won't stand
up in court. On the other hand, if they don't voluntarily submit to it,
they will never be accepted as truly clean - it will always be seen that
they 'got away with it'. Next year, the sport is just going to have to
insist on licenced riders providing samples for DNA testing.

Puncturing the perceived "infallibility" of DNA testing (real quick
read):

http://www.click2houston.com/news/2022791/detail.html

That one doesn't mention the outright lying (false court testimony),
hiding of exculpatory evidence, etc. etc.

I'm wondering where the handwringers left their understanding that
"people" need protection from the legal system. Including the right to
refuse to testify against yourself.

Give my DNA to [censored] Pound? The guy who said that Marion Jones needs to
shut her mouth or he would take all her medals away? [censored] "get me a
positive reader in here!" Pound? Not very likely.

"Accepted as truly clean"? How is it that DNA testing will make the
sport "truly clean"? It's just another faulty test, administered by
oh-so-imperfect human beings, like all the rest of the tests that have
been so pitifully bad at catching "dopers".

Put the blame where it *really* belongs: on the rulemakers who make
rules they can't enforce fairly and openly. Blame those who constructed
the framework that ensures, to an athlete, that his competitors can
"cheat" (as defined by said rules) and most likely not be caught.

Do you have a solution, a fix for this problem? I don't. Catching a few
(by the police!) and hanging them hasn't worked so far. Shall we hang
them twice?

"Truly clean"? It's a pretty picture. It isn't real. --D-y

Glad to see you still have the energy to keep up the fight. I'm
appluding from the sidelines.
What we need is an injecttion of justice and honesty all around. I'm
not going to hold my breath. Pound still hasn't found anyone that did
anything wrong in the Olympic bribery scandal. Amazing, isn't it, how a
man who sees criminals everywhere couldn't find any when it was in his
personal interest not to?
Pound is perfectly suited for US politics. He's a scumbag with nothing
resembling reasonable ethics, but can do NO wrong for his idiotic blind
supporters.
It's impossible to overestimate the power of human stupidity!
Bill C

Bill C said:

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

The issue of DNA testing isn't going to go away. If the Operacion Puerto
accused don't voluntarily submit to it, it looks like they cannot be
convicted, because the other evidence (apart from the blood) won't stand
up in court. On the other hand, if they don't voluntarily submit to it,
they will never be accepted as truly clean - it will always be seen that
they 'got away with it'. Next year, the sport is just going to have to
insist on licenced riders providing samples for DNA testing.

Puncturing the perceived "infallibility" of DNA testing (real quick
read):

http://www.click2houston.com/news/2022791/detail.html

That one doesn't mention the outright lying (false court testimony),
hiding of exculpatory evidence, etc. etc.

I'm wondering where the handwringers left their understanding that
"people" need protection from the legal system. Including the right to
refuse to testify against yourself.

Give my DNA to [censored] Pound? The guy who said that Marion Jones needs to
shut her mouth or he would take all her medals away? [censored] "get me a
positive reader in here!" Pound? Not very likely.

"Accepted as truly clean"? How is it that DNA testing will make the
sport "truly clean"? It's just another faulty test, administered by
oh-so-imperfect human beings, like all the rest of the tests that have
been so pitifully bad at catching "dopers".

Put the blame where it *really* belongs: on the rulemakers who make
rules they can't enforce fairly and openly. Blame those who constructed
the framework that ensures, to an athlete, that his competitors can
"cheat" (as defined by said rules) and most likely not be caught.

Do you have a solution, a fix for this problem? I don't. Catching a few
(by the police!) and hanging them hasn't worked so far. Shall we hang
them twice?

"Truly clean"? It's a pretty picture. It isn't real. --D-y

Glad to see you still have the energy to keep up the fight. I'm
appluding from the sidelines.
What we need is an injecttion of justice and honesty all around. I'm
not going to hold my breath. Pound still hasn't found anyone that did
anything wrong in the Olympic bribery scandal. Amazing, isn't it, how a
man who sees criminals everywhere couldn't find any when it was in his
personal interest not to?
Pound is perfectly suited for US politics. He's a scumbag with nothing
resembling reasonable ethics, but can do NO wrong for his idiotic blind
supporters.
It's impossible to overestimate the power of human stupidity!
Bill C

Hondo?

It seems to be a very short list. So far there's Tyler Hamilton, Santi
Perez, and Danilo Hondo. Besides those, I can't find anyone else. Seems like
the drug testing is a total boondoggle. On the other hand, Operacion Puerto
finds that upwards of 60 riders are on a doping program and doping rings in
Belgium, France, Italy and Germany were broken up. It seems that all the
current testing is doing is forcing the riders to more sophisticated
methods, newer and less common drugs and more masking agents.

Cycling is in a downward death spiral.

"Chachi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anyone have a list of Division 1 cyclists who have been found guilty of
doping in the last two years?

in message <[email hidden]>, Chachi

(') said:

It seems to be a very short list. So far there's Tyler Hamilton, Santi
Perez, and Danilo Hondo. Besides those, I can't find anyone else. Seems
like the drug testing is a total boondoggle. On the other hand, Operacion
Puerto finds that upwards of 60 riders are on a doping program and doping
rings in Belgium, France, Italy and Germany were broken up. It seems that
all the current testing is doing is forcing the riders to more
sophisticated methods, newer and less common drugs and more masking
agents.

Or else there's actually much less doping going on than the hysterics would
have one believe.

The 200 blood bags found at Fuentes belong to someone - and, I would guess,
probably at least fifty someones, not necessarily all cyclists. There
isn't any obvious innocent reason for their being there. And, of course,
Fuentes' was almost certainly not the only clinic. So blood doping, at
least, is going on on a significant scale.

But it's not at all necessarily the case that everone who was doing
business business with Fuentes was doping. Fuentes is, after all, an
acknowledged expert in sports medicine, and may well have been supplying
permitted services as well as 'special' ones. And not everyone whom
Fuentes denied was doing business with him necessarily was doing business
with him. If Fuentes said 'I don't know Simon Brooke', he'd be telling the
truth. Why do we assume he's lying when he says 'I don't know Ivan Basso'?

But to get back to the point, the reason so few people have been convicted
is because very little evidence has been found, but a lot of smear and
innuendo has been going on. If doping is going on on the scale [censored] Pound
alleges, the evidence must be everywhere. The fact that it hasn't been
found means either

(a) he's not doing his job, or
(b) he's not telling the truth.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Usenet: like distance learning without the learning.