Disk Brakes vs. V Brakes??

[Bart Bailey]

In Message-ID:<[email protected]> posted on
Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:20:29 CST, Werehatrack wrote: Begin

>In my experience, most v-brakes require far less finger pressure to
>produce a given amount of stopping power than a disc brake.

My Nishiki Pueblo has the old Diacompe center pull rim brakes,
whereas the Giant AC has Hayes so1e hydraulic disk brakes,
and I don't notice that much difference at all,
in fact the cable brakes seem to have a bit of stretchiness
when hard applied versus the hydraulics, which feel solid.
I do have a fluke IR thermometer
but haven't done any field readings to see how hot either gets,
but suspect that it's the disks due to less total area of dissipation.
BTW: I'm an overweight (260 lb) pleasure class riding old geezer,
so my brakes get a fairly robust test when I cruise about town.

--

Bart

 

[Bart Bailey]

In Message-ID:<[email protected]> posted on Thu, 12 Oct
2006 11:51:03 CST, Tosspot wrote: Begin

>Werehatrack wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 00:04:56 CST, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>
><snip>
>
>>>- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
>>>discs get noticeably warm, around 170F.
>>
>>
>> Gosh, you had a contact thermometer available? I'm impressed.
>
>IR Thermometer. Every cyclist should have one.
>
>http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/digital-infrared-thermometer/digital-infrared-thermometer.htm

Mine's the 62 http://tinyurl.com/vnq88

--

Bart

 

[dgk]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 11:51:03 CST, Tosspot <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Werehatrack wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 00:04:56 CST, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>
><snip>
>
>>>- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
>>>discs get noticeably warm, around 170F.
>>
>>
>> Gosh, you had a contact thermometer available? I'm impressed.
>
>IR Thermometer. Every cyclist should have one.
>
>http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/digital-infrared-thermometer/digital-infrared-thermometer.htm

I'll admit that I'm dying to get one, but I really can't figure out
what I'd use it for. I guess it would be cool to have one when someone
asks if they have a temperature. Instead of the old tried and true
hand to the forehead, you can just zap them right between the eyes -
non-laser version probably better for this application.

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[Werehatrack]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:39:20 GMT, Bart Bailey <[email protected]> wrote:

>In Message-ID:<[email protected]> posted on
>Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:20:29 CST, Werehatrack wrote: Begin
>
>>In my experience, most v-brakes require far less finger pressure to
>>produce a given amount of stopping power than a disc brake.
>
>My Nishiki Pueblo has the old Diacompe center pull rim brakes,

I've got a set of those on an old C Itoh. The pull is high by
comparison to any of the V-brakes I have.

>whereas the Giant AC has Hayes so1e hydraulic disk brakes,
>and I don't notice that much difference at all,
>in fact the cable brakes seem to have a bit of stretchiness
>when hard applied versus the hydraulics, which feel solid.

That's they way I would have expected this comparison to run...but
then, as I said, I've got a set of those old Dia Compe brakes, so I
was expecting them to requires some effort.

>I do have a fluke IR thermometer
>but haven't done any field readings to see how hot either gets,
>but suspect that it's the disks

This would be my expectation as well.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Werehatrack]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 11:51:03 CST, Tosspot <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Werehatrack wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 00:04:56 CST, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>
><snip>
>
>>>- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
>>>discs get noticeably warm, around 170F.
>>
>>
>> Gosh, you had a contact thermometer available? I'm impressed.
>
>IR Thermometer. Every cyclist should have one.
>
>http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/digital-infrared-thermometer/digital-infrared-thermometer.htm

I have one, actually, but it's a Raytek. I find that for small
surfaces, its utility is limited.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

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[Tosspot]

Werehatrack wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 11:51:03 CST, Tosspot <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Werehatrack wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 00:04:56 CST, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>>- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
>>>>discs get noticeably warm, around 170F.
>>>
>>>
>>>Gosh, you had a contact thermometer available? I'm impressed.
>>
>>IR Thermometer. Every cyclist should have one.
>>
>>http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/digital-infrared-thermometer/digital-infrared-thermometer.htm
>
>
> I have one, actually, but it's a Raytek. I find that for small
> surfaces, its utility is limited.

<shrugs> I'm with the previous poster, great gadget, I just can't think
what to use it for.

Now the 83 piece tool kit I just bought, plus an angle grinder, is
asking for one of these

http://www.dutchbikes.nl/bodies_uk/frame_ks2.htm



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[Bart Bailey]

In Message-ID:<[email protected]> posted on Fri, 13 Oct
2006 11:25:07 CST, Tosspot wrote: Begin

>I'm with the previous poster, great gadget, I just can't think
>what to use it for.

I originally got mine in a moment of extravagance, thinking it would be
a fun instrument, and my initial suspicions weren't far off.
It's turned out to be one of the most interesting 'toys' I've bought in
a long while.
....and don't worry, if/when you get one, there'll be plenty of targets.

--

Bart

 

[Scott Gordo]

Tosspot wrote:
> Werehatrack wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 11:51:03 CST, Tosspot <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Werehatrack wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 00:04:56 CST, [email protected] wrote:
> >>>
> >>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>>>- After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
> >>>>discs get noticeably warm, around 170F.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Gosh, you had a contact thermometer available? I'm impressed.
> >>
> >>IR Thermometer. Every cyclist should have one.
> >>
> >>http://www.webbikeworld.com/r2/digital-infrared-thermometer/digital-infrared-thermometer.htm
> >
> >
> > I have one, actually, but it's a Raytek. I find that for small
> > surfaces, its utility is limited.
>
> <shrugs> I'm with the previous poster, great gadget, I just can't think
> what to use it for.
>
> Now the 83 piece tool kit I just bought, plus an angle grinder, is
> asking for one of these
>
> http://www.dutchbikes.nl/bodies_uk/frame_ks2.htm
>
>
>
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> rec.bicycles.off-road is moderated by volunteers. To find help solving
> posting problems, or contact the moderators, please see http://rbor.org/
> Please read the charter before posting: http://rbor.org/rbor_charter.txt

Wow!

http://www.dutchbikes.nl/bodies_uk/frame_kv4.htm

/s

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[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

[email protected] wrote:
> ...
> PS: All the monkey references are founded on an employee there telling
> me that 'there are no electrical brakes' when I asked for differences
> between hydraulic and cable actuated....

If one has a bicycle with an electrical power assist hub, one could
create an electrical brake by having a switch to run the hub as a
dynamo with the current produced run through an air-cooled resistor
grid (such brakes are used on diesel-electric hybrid off-road dump
trucks and railroad locomotives).

V-Brake is a Shimano copyrighted name. For non-Shimano brakes (and for
generic reference to Shimano brakes), the correct term is "direct-pull
cantilever".

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

 

[bill]

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> ...
>> PS: All the monkey references are founded on an employee there telling
>> me that 'there are no electrical brakes' when I asked for differences
>> between hydraulic and cable actuated....
>
> If one has a bicycle with an electrical power assist hub, one could
> create an electrical brake by having a switch to run the hub as a
> dynamo with the current produced run through an air-cooled resistor
> grid (such brakes are used on diesel-electric hybrid off-road dump
> trucks and railroad locomotives).

Interesting take on it, but that only works down to a certain speed and
not to a full stop. Electrical generation requires movement of a wire
through a magnetic field and falls on it's face for a dead stop. You
still need contact brakes of some sort for that.
Bill Baka
>
> V-Brake is a Shimano copyrighted name. For non-Shimano brakes (and for
> generic reference to Shimano brakes), the correct term is "direct-pull
> cantilever".
>

 

[Chris Y.F.N.W.]

Group: rec.bicycles.misc Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2006, 11:54am (EDT-3) From:
[email protected] (Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman)

>V-Brake is a Shimano copyrighted name.
>For non-Shimano brakes (and for generic
>reference to Shimano brakes), the
>correct term is "direct-pull cantilever".
>--
>Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

Actually, the accepted popular generic term is, I believe
"linear-pull"...]

- -
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My website:
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[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Chris Y.F.N.W. wrote:
> Group: rec.bicycles.misc Date: Sun, Oct 15, 2006, 11:54am (EDT-3) From:
> [email protected] (Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman)
>
> >V-Brake is a Shimano copyrighted name.
> >For non-Shimano brakes (and for generic
> >reference to Shimano brakes), the
> >correct term is "direct-pull cantilever".
>
> Actually, the accepted popular generic term is, I believe
> "linear-pull"...]

Better tell Sheldon Brown:
<http://www.sheldonbrown.com/canti-direct.html>.

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

 

[Alex]

[email protected] wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I tried a bike with hydraulic disk brakes (Hayes Sole V6) yesterday
> for the first time, and would appreciate your input on my impressions:
>
> - On the first bike I tried, it was not possible to block the wheel
> with the disk brake. I checked and found that the disk was oily. On
> another bike (same brake) I was able to get the wheel to block, but
> with application of extreme force to the brake handle, MUCH more than
> required by any V brake I ever tried.
>
> Question: Are Hydraulic Brakes really weaker than V brakes, or was this
> bike just assembled by monkeys?

My guess is that monkeys are to blame. I recently rode a couple of
bikes with hydraulic brakes. You should have a very solid feel to the
lever. You should be getting a lot of braking for a light touch on the
lever. I could get plenty fo braking power with just two fingers on
teh brake. I have relatively weak hands, so that says alot about the
braking power. I was very tempted to run with one finger on the brake.


> - I noticed that the hydraulic disc brakes have a much 'spongier' feel
> than the cable actuated V brakes.

This is a clear indication that something was wrong. Hydraulic brakes
should feel
very solid and hard. Spongy probably means air in the sytem.

>This I guess was related to the
> hydraulic hose / brake line expanding under pressure, because it was ok
> on the front brake (1/2 of the brake lever way until full braking), and
> not acceptable no the rear brake (had to pull the brake lever almost up
> to the handle bar to get full breaking power)

Air is the most likely culprit, not the hose.


> - After playing with the brakes for a few minutes, I noticed that the
> discs get noticeably warm, around 170F. Are there ever heating issues
> with disc brakes on longer downhill segments? Seems a stupid question,
> but they did get quite warm just by playing around on level ground for
> about ten minutes.

Brakes are supposed to get hot. That's how they work. They turn
kinetic energy into heat.


> So monkeys or Neanderthals are definitely a possibility in that store.
> But the bike is on sale, so I might still buy there. Uh. Uh. Uh. I

factor a new rotor and pads into the price discount.

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[Chris Y.F.N.W.]

Group: rec.bicycles.misc Date: Mon, Oct 16, 2006, 8:53pm (EDT-3) From:
[email protected] (Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman)

>Chris Y.F.N.W. wrote:

>>Actually, the accepted popular generic >>term is, I believe
"linear-pull"...]

>Better tell Sheldon Brown:
>--
>Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

Well, nothing against Sheldon, but he isn't the entire bicycle retail
industry. In most of the catalogues / internet sites / magazines I've
read, the term linear-pull is used more often than direct-pull.

I prefer linear because all cable pull brakes are basically "direct". In
that there ius a direct mechanical connection between the lever and the
calipers with no intermediate mechanism, as in a hydraulic system.

- -
Compliments of:
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My website:
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[Sheldon Brown]

Chris Y.F.N.W. wrote:

> >>Actually, the accepted popular generic term is, I believe "linear-pull"....

Tom Sherman replied:
> >Better tell Sheldon Brown:

Chris Y.F.N.W. wrote:

> Well, nothing against Sheldon, but he isn't the entire bicycle retail
> industry. In most of the catalogues / internet sites / magazines I've
> read, the term linear-pull is used more often than direct-pull.

Well, nothing against either of these folks but...

As a soi-disant cyclexicographer I am highly opinionated about certain
usages/misusages. Don't get me going about "brake arch" or "crank arm"
or "cogset."

However I have no major problem with either of these terms, and list
both in my Bicycle Glossary.

Actually, in casual conversation, I think most folks don't use either
of these terms, chosing instead to abuse Shimano's trademark "V-Brake."


In this spirit, I sometimes call them "v-type" brakes, because this is
generally understood colloquially.

> I prefer linear because all cable pull brakes are basically "direct". In
> that there ius a direct mechanical connection between the lever and the
> calipers with no intermediate mechanism, as in a hydraulic system.

Well, I have a mild preference for "direct" for two reasons:

·They are not actually "linear" though they are closer to linear than
traditional center-pull cantilevers.

·"Direct" refers to the fact that the cable from the lever acts
directly on the arms, rather than through the intermediary of a yoke
and transverse cable.

Strictly speaking I don't see that a cable connection is fundamentally
any more "direct" than a hydraulic system.

Sheldon "Can't We All Just Get Along?" Brown
+-----------------------------------------+
| Man invented language to satisfy his |
| deep need to complain. -- Lily Tomlin |
+-----------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Bart Bailey]

In Message-ID:<[email protected]> posted
on Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:28:00 -0400, Chris Y.F.N.W. wrote: Begin

>I prefer linear because all cable pull brakes are basically "direct". In
>that there ius a direct mechanical connection between the lever and the
>calipers with no intermediate mechanism, as in a hydraulic system.

Seems to me;
Whether pulling or pushing, wire and fluid systems are both indirect,
in that they both use an intermediary transfer method.
A direct system would be to have the hand lever apply directly to the
brake, like the old stagecoaches did.

--

Bart

 

[[email protected]]

Bart Bailey wrote:
>
> Seems to me;
> Whether pulling or pushing, wire and fluid systems are both indirect,
> in that they both use an intermediary transfer method.
> A direct system would be to have the hand lever apply directly to the
> brake, like the old stagecoaches did.

Or maybe brake shoes clipped directly onto the thumb and forefinger?
;-)

- Frank Krygowski

 

[Bart Bailey]

In Message-ID:<[email protected]>
posted on 20 Oct 2006 12:44:27 -0700, [email protected] wrote: Begin

>
>Bart Bailey wrote:
>>
>> Seems to me;
>> Whether pulling or pushing, wire and fluid systems are both indirect,
>> in that they both use an intermediary transfer method.
>> A direct system would be to have the hand lever apply directly to the
>> brake, like the old stagecoaches did.
>
>Or maybe brake shoes clipped directly onto the thumb and forefinger?
>;-)
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Yep, like the primitive neolite braking system,
with blue smoke curling up around your ankles.

--

Bart

 

[Chris Y.F.N.W.]

Group: rec.bicycles.misc Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2006, 9:42am (EDT-3) From:
[email protected] (Sheldon Brown)

>Strictly speaking I don't see that a cable
>connection is fundamentally any more
>"direct" than a hydraulic system.

My reason (and please don't take this as an arguement, i'm only
explaining myself) for calling cable pull systems "direct" as opposed to
hydraulic is that there the cable acts as a direct connection fron the
lever to the brake (or derailer)

Whereas, in a hydraulic system the lever actuates a piston which
compresses fluid which in turn actuates another piston which actuates
the brakes mechanism.

The same could be said for the electric derailer system that I forget
which manufacturer is currently messing around with. the instructions
are being sent to the mech. from the control by by indirect mean IOW, an
electrical current.

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