Disc vs Rim brakes

"Jules" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hey all,
Hope this hasn't been done to death already... but:

Picked up my first MTB with disc brakes recently and am not especially
happy with the braking power from the front. They are just basic cable
actuated discs.

They're reasonably smooth and progressive, just not powerful; i.e. I
have to squeeze the lever with substantially more force than for an
equivalent braking force on decent rim brakes.

I'm only hand waving, as I haven't done any scientific tests, but, my
mechanical discs feel far more powerful and offer far more feel than any Vs
or canti's I've used before.

An unfortunate intimate relationship between my derailleur and wheel means
I've been able to test this more thoroughly recently - my disc bike wasn't
going anywhere for a while, so it was time to drag out the old bikes to keep
riding. My cantis (admittedly not high end - probably early STX) with
Koolstops are hopeless. I can't believe I ever braked as late as I did. My
Vs (LX) are much more powerful and better modulated, but still require more
hand pressure than my disc brakes, and take a moment to "kick in". Worst
thing about discs is mine use pads much more than I think they should.

I can't wait to get back to discs. I'm running 2001 Avid mechanicals with
EBC gold pads.

Maybe your pads are glazed or still need to bed in?

Tony F

Jules <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Picked up my first MTB with disc brakes recently and am not especially
happy with the braking power from the front. They are just basic cable
actuated discs.

I went from rim to hydraulic disc, I wouldn't go back.

My "guess", your "basic cable discs" aren't that good, the test ride I had
on one set of cable discs and I thought them appaling, that doesn't mean
they all are like that though and I am no expert 🙂

--
Trevor S

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein

Jules said:

Hey all,
Hope this hasn't been done to death already... but:

Picked up my first MTB with disc brakes recently and am not especially
happy with the braking power from the front. They are just basic cable
actuated discs.

They're reasonably smooth and progressive, just not powerful; i.e. I
have to squeeze the lever with substantially more force than for an
equivalent braking force on decent rim brakes.

To my mind, this actually makes perfect sense - as the brake caliper is
much closer to the hub and hence has less "leverage" on the wheel to
stop it. Hence in motorcycles/cars brake discs grow in diameter as more
braking power is required for the application (e.g racing).

A rim brake is logically equivalent to a really massive disc hence has
huge relative braking power.

So - anyone care to convince me otherwise and tell me that my disc
brakes should offer superior braking power? Coz I'd really like them to
;-) I long for single finger endo's that I used to do on my R6.

Jules

Be aware that most disc brakes won't offer full power for a little while after purchase (or after installing new pads)... It takes a while to bed them in.

Having said that, many cable discs aren't that much better then a good set of v's in terms of pure power. They may have better actuation, be smoother, and better protected from the elements, but that doesn't mean they'll be a more powerful brake.

Give them some time, play around with the adjustments (my basic dia-tech cable discs performed much better after a little cable tweaking), and when it comes to it replace the pads - You'll probably be happy enough with them.

Of course, there's always the solution of rubbing the discs with coke once a week. Increases power (But creates an awful squeal in the process!)

Eddie(hydraulic next time)c

Previously had Magura Julie hydraulic disks on the Avanti Barracuda which had absconded in my absence. My current Specialised Stumpjumper runs way-cool Schm LX rim brakes.
I single-digit brake & appreciate the feel my V’s give, never left wanting for more.
At the weekly Dirt Crits I can always tell a disk-braked bike is coming up behind me because I can usually hear their squealing at each stop & turn.
Disks are clear of most of the [censored] the wheels turn through, but they get mega hot in tight going & them disk pads aren’t cheap.

With such a massive range in both types – disk & V-brake – it’s hard to say that one type is definitely better than the other.

I think the rule here is that disks aren’t better than V-brakes, just different.

Jules said:

Hey all,
Hope this hasn't been done to death already... but:

Picked up my first MTB with disc brakes recently and am not especially
happy with the braking power from the front. They are just basic cable
actuated discs.

They're reasonably smooth and progressive, just not powerful; i.e. I
have to squeeze the lever with substantially more force than for an
equivalent braking force on decent rim brakes.

To my mind, this actually makes perfect sense - as the brake caliper is
much closer to the hub and hence has less "leverage" on the wheel to
stop it. Hence in motorcycles/cars brake discs grow in diameter as more
braking power is required for the application (e.g racing).

A rim brake is logically equivalent to a really massive disc hence has
huge relative braking power.

So - anyone care to convince me otherwise and tell me that my disc
brakes should offer superior braking power? Coz I'd really like them to
;-) I long for single finger endo's that I used to do on my R6.

Jules

Like others have said, I'd be checking out the quality of the brakes.
What make/model are they?

I actually 'upgraded' from Hayes Mag hydros to Avid cable discs. It
turned out that the problems I had with the Hayes were actually a flaw
in the frame, but I'm more than happy with the Avids, which seem to have
a reputation as the best cable discs, and possibly better than some low
end hydros. I wouldn't swap back from the Avid cables to Hayes hydros.

--
Nick

Interesting..

The bike is well run in actually (bought off a mate who rode a few
hundred km on it), so maybe some softer compound pads if they exist.

Or - and I've tried to resist the temptation - time to start tweaking
and searching ebay ;-)))

A pic for anyone interested
http://public-files.farked.com:351/photos/new%20toy2.jpg

Jules

eddiec said:

Jules said:

Hey all,
Hope this hasn't been done to death already... but:

Picked up my first MTB with disc brakes recently and am not especially
happy with the braking power from the front. They are just basic
cable
actuated discs.

They're reasonably smooth and progressive, just not powerful; i.e. I
have to squeeze the lever with substantially more force than for an
equivalent braking force on decent rim brakes.

To my mind, this actually makes perfect sense - as the brake caliper
is
much closer to the hub and hence has less "leverage" on the wheel to
stop it. Hence in motorcycles/cars brake discs grow in diameter as
more
braking power is required for the application (e.g racing).

A rim brake is logically equivalent to a really massive disc hence has
huge relative braking power.

So - anyone care to convince me otherwise and tell me that my disc
brakes should offer superior braking power? Coz I'd really like them
to
;-) I long for single finger endo's that I used to do on my R6.

Jules

Be aware that most disc brakes won't offer full power for a little
while after purchase (or after installing new pads)... It takes a while
to bed them in.

Having said that, many cable discs aren't that much better then a good
set of v's in terms of pure power. They may have better actuation, be
smoother, and better protected from the elements, but that doesn't mean
they'll be a more powerful brake.

Give them some time, play around with the adjustments (my basic
dia-tech cable discs performed much better after a little cable
tweaking), and when it comes to it replace the pads - You'll probably
be happy enough with them.

Of course, there's always the solution of rubbing the discs with coke
once a week. Increases power (But creates an awful squeal in the
process!)

Eddie(hydraulic next time)c

"Jules" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Interesting..

The bike is well run in actually (bought off a mate who rode a few hundred
km on it), so maybe some softer compound pads if they exist.

Or - and I've tried to resist the temptation - time to start tweaking and
searching ebay ;-)))

A pic for anyone interested
http://public-files.farked.com:351/photos/new%20toy2.jpg

This looks to be the 2004 Yukon going by the colour scheme. It has Hayes
mechanical discs, which have a standard Hayes sintered metal pad I believe.
The latest Australian Mountain Bike mag has a tech talk section (p88) on a
range of Hayes compatible disc pads.

Phantom Cycles www.phantomcycles.com.au have the Hayes standard pads for
$55. EBC also make hayes compatible pads that are pretty readily available
and a bit cheaper - three types: green are general use, red are soft (but
will wear pretty rapidly, race use) and gold are long lasting but lesser
grip. Koolstop also make Hayes-compatible pads. I have some of these and
some EBC greens as spares, but the Hayes pads have just lasted and lasted,
so I have no coparison to make.

Eventually you'll need to change those brakes - they must get scratched and
bashed surely. Then go the upgrade to hydraulic ;-)

Cheers
Peter

Peter Signorini said:

Phantom Cycles www.phantomcycles.com.au have the Hayes standard pads for
$55. EBC also make hayes compatible pads that are pretty readily available
and a bit cheaper - three types: green are general use, red are soft (but
will wear pretty rapidly, race use) and gold are long lasting but lesser
grip.

Correction - Phantom also list the Hayes pads in semi-metallic and
sintered-metallic. Semi-metalic for XC, and sintered-metallic for DH
(excellent grip that's what I'm using I think), both for $49.95 now.
http://www.phantomcycles.com.au/product.php?productid=2724&cat=107&page=4

Also their EBC pads are $39.95, and they have Barradine Hayes-compatible
pads for $19.95 (don't know how good these will be)

Nothing about the Koolstop pads, and I can't remember where I got them but
it was an on-line purchase.

Ceers
Peter

Koolstop also make Hayes-compatible pads. I have some of these and

Quoted message said:

some EBC greens as spares, but the Hayes pads have just lasted and lasted,
so I have no coparison to make.

Eventually you'll need to change those brakes - they must get scratched
and bashed surely. Then go the upgrade to hydraulic ;-)

Cheers
Peter

Quoted message said:

PS. Are you the Jules from aus.motorcycles? I'm the Duncan from the
'bladeblast' at Phillip Island the other year.

hehe.. I am indeed. Just as I was reading this I was formulating my
next post: "Duncan, eh? I think we've met" ;-)

You mention "I have Hayes hydros on my race bike." - what kind of
racing/bike is this? Downhill MTB or something? Seems most people who
want serious stopping power don't tend to be riding slick-shod commuter
MTBs like me. I just want to do better stoppies ;-)

Jules

Jules said:

Seems most people who want serious stopping power don't tend to be riding
slick-shod commuter MTBs like me. I just want to do better stoppies ;-)

The real value of disc brakes is when riding steep descents, and coping with
dirty, muddy tracks. Around town for commuting there's really not much of a
need for discs. They do remove the problem of wet weather braking to some
extent, but you can get all the braking power you're likely to need from a
typical set of V brakes. Your cable discs should be just as good.

Stoppies? You nean nose wheelies? I thought that your C of G (ie. body
position) played a bigger role in doing these well, rather than sheer brake
power. Look at the BMX kids, doing them at the drop of a hat with just
crappy side-pull brakes. On a road bike it's almost impossible to do them
because, when applying the brakes with full force on the drops, your weight
is too low. Try sitting up higher as you pull the stoppy, and lift yourself
forward.

Note: All actions taken as a result of this post are entirely the
responsibility of the rider. No responsibility is taken for the activities
of the OTB fairy. :-)

Cheers
Peter

"Jules" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:42a1c422$0$31256$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-

Quoted message said:

You mention "I have Hayes hydros on my race bike." - what kind of
racing/bike is this? Downhill MTB or something? Seems most people who
want serious stopping power don't tend to be riding slick-shod commuter
MTBs like me. I just want to do better stoppies ;-)

It's a hardtail (Kona Kula Deluxe) for XC racing. Absolute stopping power
isn't so important for XC racing as you're usualy cornering pretty fast on
less than grippy tyres at/beyond the edge of traction. If the brakes came
on too fast you'd be falling down a lot in corners.
With my Hayes I find one finger is plenty for normal racing, maybe two in
steep sections. With my weight forward I can do one finger stoppies but the
really relaxed sitting down ones need two or three fingers.
My friends 8inch avid mechanicals felt like someone stuck a bar through your
spokes with one finger pressure. I never rode them at speed but I'd be a
little hesitant to ride them on slippery tracks.