Disc brake questions ....

Todd Day said:

Hello to everyone ....
I've lurked here off and on for a while and appreciate all the useful
information I've gleaned about my favorite pastime, mountain biking.

I've got some questions pertaining to converting from v-brakes to disc
... I wanted to get a few opinions before I spend any money!

I've been riding for just over 4 years. I have a 2001 Diamondback Apex
hardtail. I've done a few upgrades/improvements on it like replacing
the original Koski brakes with Shimanos, switching the pedals to
Times and converting all the drivetrain components to Shimano XTR's.

I really like this bike. Even though it's a hardtail and most of my
friends ride FS bikes, I'm in no hurry to switch. It just seems to fit
me just right and is solid as a rock. The frame has withstood numerous
crashes over 4 years with no breaks, cracks or dents. The Manitou fork
is probably not the best, but works well under the conditions I ride.

Now .... I've been considering upgrading to disc brakes for some time.
Everyone I talk to and/or ride with who has them on their bike just
raves about them.

My questions are: Should I start out with a mechanical system, or just
go straight to hydraulics? Is the price difference worth it? What are
the pros and cons of both systems?

And is it even worth putting discs on a bike like this??

What are some recomendations for quality disc brake systems which are
a good value for someone on a budget like me?

I hope none of these questions are stupid ... but I'm still learning a
lot about the sport and bikes in general and I've found there are a
lot of different viewpoints on all those subjects.

Thanks a ton for reading and I appreciate any help or just opinions
anyone has.

Mountain biking has changed my life and I want to get the most out of
it I can!

todd

If you want to start with cheap mechanicals (NOT recommended) then you can
upgrade to good mechanicals or good hydraulics. There are few crappy
hydraulics, but plenty of crappy discs. Avid mechanicals are generally
reliable, cost-effective, low-maintenance, and have lots of power. Hayes
hydraulic systems tend to be somewhat lower in power, but better in
modulation, and a pain to maintain if something goes wrong. Avid hydraulics
are very strong, but they haven't been out on the market for too long...
longevity remains to be seen.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Phil said:

Todd Day said:

Hello to everyone ....
I've lurked here off and on for a while and appreciate all the useful
information I've gleaned about my favorite pastime, mountain biking.

I've got some questions pertaining to converting from v-brakes to
disc ... I wanted to get a few opinions before I spend any money!

I've been riding for just over 4 years. I have a 2001 Diamondback
Apex hardtail. I've done a few upgrades/improvements on it like
replacing the original Koski brakes with Shimanos, switching the
pedals to Times and converting all the drivetrain components to
Shimano XTR's.

I really like this bike. Even though it's a hardtail and most of my
friends ride FS bikes, I'm in no hurry to switch. It just seems to
fit me just right and is solid as a rock. The frame has withstood
numerous crashes over 4 years with no breaks, cracks or dents. The
Manitou fork is probably not the best, but works well under the
conditions I ride.

Now .... I've been considering upgrading to disc brakes for some
time. Everyone I talk to and/or ride with who has them on their bike
just raves about them.

My questions are: Should I start out with a mechanical system, or
just go straight to hydraulics? Is the price difference worth it?
What are the pros and cons of both systems?

And is it even worth putting discs on a bike like this??

What are some recomendations for quality disc brake systems which are
a good value for someone on a budget like me?

I hope none of these questions are stupid ... but I'm still learning
a lot about the sport and bikes in general and I've found there are a
lot of different viewpoints on all those subjects.

Thanks a ton for reading and I appreciate any help or just opinions
anyone has.

Mountain biking has changed my life and I want to get the most out of
it I can!

todd

If you want to start with cheap mechanicals (NOT recommended) then
you can upgrade to good mechanicals or good hydraulics. There are
few crappy hydraulics, but plenty of crappy discs. Avid mechanicals
are generally reliable, cost-effective, low-maintenance, and have
lots of power. Hayes hydraulic systems tend to be somewhat lower in
power, but better in modulation, and a pain to maintain if something
goes wrong. Avid hydraulics are very strong, but they haven't been
out on the market for too long... longevity remains to be seen.

So far the Hayes Mag lever hydraulic brakes I have on three bikes have been
trouble free. Their HFX-9 levers have been more problematic with my
experience with them on my friends bikes. I like how the hydraulics feel at
the lever over cable actuated discs and have plenty of power. If you're
really on a budget you can't go wrong with Avid Mechanicals.

Mike

Per Todd Day:

Quoted message said:

My questions are: Should I start out with a mechanical system, or just
go straight to hydraulics? Is the price difference worth it? What are
the pros and cons of both systems?

And is it even worth putting discs on a bike like this??

What are some recomendations for quality disc brake systems which are a
good value for someone on a budget like me?

From a braking/modulation/control perspective, I don't think you need a disc on
the rear. I've tried it both ways and the only reasons I went back to a rear
disc are the noises that rim brakes make when muddy and the fact that my calves
bump against part of the brake.

Avid mechs are highly regarded and that's what I have as my rear brake.

I've got a Hope C2 hydraulic on the front, but if I had it to do over again, I'd
have an Avid Juicy for the pad interchangeability.

For me, the main features of discs are modulation/control and consistency in the
wet.

I think a hydraulic gives better modulation/control than a mech, but that's not
to say that mechs aren't perfectly acceptable.

My experience is that disc brakes don't work all that well when wet - it's just
that they don't get wet that often and they dry out quickly when they do.
Try riding through a snow drift and then applying them and you'll see what I
mean.

The main downside to discs that I've experienced is all the weird things that
can happen to make them noisy and/or diminish their breaking power.
--
PeteCresswell

In article <hFSIf.394988$0l5.19460@dukeread06>,
"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There are few crappy hydraulics, but plenty of crappy discs.

?

Quoted message said:

Avid mechanicals are generally reliable, cost-effective,
low-maintenance, and have lots of power. Hayes hydraulic systems
tend to be somewhat lower in power, but better in modulation, and a
pain to maintain if something goes wrong.

This is the first I've heard that hydraulics are lower in power than
mechanicals. Mechanicals have more friction built-in and the pads are
farther away from the rotors, therefore they inherently have less power.
The main problem with hydraulics is the fact that the pads are so close
to the rotor, that often the pads rub and one of the pistons stick.
Hydraulics are also lighter than mechanicals, but if you read the
reviews in MTB Review, the Avid mechanicals are one of the most highly
rated disc brakes.

--
Mike DeMicco <[email hidden]>

Todd Day said:

Hello to everyone ....
I've lurked here off and on for a while and appreciate all the useful
information I've gleaned about my favorite pastime, mountain biking.

I've got some questions pertaining to converting from v-brakes to disc
.... I wanted to get a few opinions before I spend any money!

I've been riding for just over 4 years. I have a 2001 Diamondback Apex
hardtail. I've done a few upgrades/improvements on it like replacing the
original Koski brakes with Shimanos, switching the pedals to Times and
converting all the drivetrain components to Shimano XTR's.

I really like this bike. Even though it's a hardtail and most of my
friends ride FS bikes, I'm in no hurry to switch. It just seems to fit
me just right and is solid as a rock. The frame has withstood numerous
crashes over 4 years with no breaks, cracks or dents. The Manitou fork
is probably not the best, but works well under the conditions I ride.

Now .... I've been considering upgrading to disc brakes for some time.
Everyone I talk to and/or ride with who has them on their bike just
raves about them.

My questions are: Should I start out with a mechanical system, or just
go straight to hydraulics? Is the price difference worth it? What are
the pros and cons of both systems?

And is it even worth putting discs on a bike like this??

What are some recomendations for quality disc brake systems which are a
good value for someone on a budget like me?

I hope none of these questions are stupid ... but I'm still learning a
lot about the sport and bikes in general and I've found there are a lot
of different viewpoints on all those subjects.

Thanks a ton for reading and I appreciate any help or just opinions
anyone has.

Mountain biking has changed my life and I want to get the most out of it
I can!

todd

If you decide to go with Avid Mechs and are interested in a used pair
w/levers, email me.

FYI, they were replaced by a pair if Juicys on my wife's ride. She is so
small and light, that the feel with the mechanicals was not for her. I
still ride Avid Mechs because I like how well they work considering how
easy they are to own. I've bent rotors badly on the trail and it was not
difficult to handle on the Avid Mechs.

--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado

Owner/Operator of the Pekingnese Ranch.

Wow ....
Many, many thanks to all who responded. A ton of great information. I've
got my homework to do now for sure! I haven't ridden much lately due to
work and school slamming me, time wise ... but I'm looking forward to
going all out this spring/summer.

You guys rock!

todd

Todd Day said:

Hello to everyone ....
I've lurked here off and on for a while and appreciate all the useful
information I've gleaned about my favorite pastime, mountain biking.

I've got some questions pertaining to converting from v-brakes to disc
... I wanted to get a few opinions before I spend any money!

I've been riding for just over 4 years. I have a 2001 Diamondback Apex
hardtail. I've done a few upgrades/improvements on it like replacing the
original Koski brakes with Shimanos, switching the pedals to Times and
converting all the drivetrain components to Shimano XTR's.

I really like this bike. Even though it's a hardtail and most of my
friends ride FS bikes, I'm in no hurry to switch. It just seems to fit
me just right and is solid as a rock. The frame has withstood numerous
crashes over 4 years with no breaks, cracks or dents. The Manitou fork
is probably not the best, but works well under the conditions I ride.

Now .... I've been considering upgrading to disc brakes for some time.
Everyone I talk to and/or ride with who has them on their bike just
raves about them.

My questions are: Should I start out with a mechanical system, or just
go straight to hydraulics? Is the price difference worth it? What are
the pros and cons of both systems?

And is it even worth putting discs on a bike like this??

What are some recomendations for quality disc brake systems which are a
good value for someone on a budget like me?

I hope none of these questions are stupid ... but I'm still learning a
lot about the sport and bikes in general and I've found there are a lot
of different viewpoints on all those subjects.

Thanks a ton for reading and I appreciate any help or just opinions
anyone has.

Mountain biking has changed my life and I want to get the most out of it
I can!

todd

"Todd Day" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > Wow ....

Quoted message said:

Many, many thanks to all who responded. A ton of great information. I've
got my homework to do now for sure! I haven't ridden much lately due to
work and school slamming me, time wise ... but I'm looking forward to
going all out this spring/summer.

Some additional thoughts: I'm considering the same upgrade, and stand
corrected if any of the info below is in error

- Do you need new wheels ?, do you have disc ready hubs ?, and or frame
("I'm not doing any research as to the bike). New decent wheels are
$300/pair

- Are your levers integrated with the shifters ?. If so, and I know they
are V capable, you may want to stick with mechanical discs so as to not have
to get hydraulic levers, plus either a shifter pod mount/or new shifters.

- Is the bike worth the xtra $300 for wheels, plus $150 or so for Avid
BB7's, plus cables ?.

- I'd recommend the BB7's as that's the mechanical brake to have, if you
don't want/can't do hydraulic. Some research I did indicated that pads for
BB5's are scarce, as well as being different then the BB7 pads, which are
very common.

SB
..

Per Craig Brossman:

Quoted message said:

FYI, they were replaced by a pair if Juicys on my wife's ride. She is so
small and light, that the feel with the mechanicals was not for her. I
still ride Avid Mechs because I like how well they work considering how
easy they are to own. I've bent rotors badly on the trail and it was not
difficult to handle on the Avid Mechs.

Did you notice any difference in modulation between an Avid mech and a Juicy on
the front wheel?

When I tried an Avid mech on my front wheel, I thought it was a little grabby -
but wrote it off to something about the pad/rotor combination and went back to
my Hope C2.
--
PeteCresswell

"Todd Day" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hello to everyone ....

My questions are: Should I start out with a mechanical system, or just
go straight to hydraulics? Is the price difference worth it? What are
the pros and cons of both systems?

First ensure your bike has disc brake tabs on both the fork and
the frame. If not, your choice is easy.

If you go mechanical, you don't have to change your brake
levers. If you go hydraulics, you change everything! Are they
worth the $$$ diff? I don't know since I've never ridden a
bike with good hydraulics.

Avid mechs are reliable and affordable. I put Avid mechs on
mine and they work well for my type of riding, which is purely
XC. Disc brakes especially work well in wet conditions, like
stream crossings, slight rain, etc. I generally don't ride in
extreme wet conditions.

Quoted message said:

And is it even worth putting discs on a bike like this??

Only can truly answer that question. If you're happy with
your current system, why change and spend time and $$$.

Quoted message said:

todd

--
- Zilla
Cary, NC USA
(Remove XSPAM)

"(PeteCresswell)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Per Craig Brossman:

Quoted message said:

FYI, they were replaced by a pair if Juicys on my wife's ride. She is so
small and light, that the feel with the mechanicals was not for her. I
still ride Avid Mechs because I like how well they work considering how
easy they are to own. I've bent rotors badly on the trail and it was not
difficult to handle on the Avid Mechs.

Did you notice any difference in modulation between an Avid mech and a

Juicy on

Quoted message said:

the front wheel?

I'm still thinking about switching from a Juicy to a mech on the rear. I've
re-bled the rear and I'm still getting brake fade issues with it. No
problems whatsoever on the front. Even though the rear appears to be
bubble-free after the bleed I do a couple of short, steep downhills
scrubbing the rear brake and it fades to nothing. I look at the reservoir
at the lever and there are gigantic bubbles. This is with fresh, unopened
fluid.

Greg

(PeteCresswell) said:

Per Craig Brossman:

Quoted message said:

FYI, they were replaced by a pair if Juicys on my wife's ride. She
is so small and light, that the feel with the mechanicals was not
for her. I still ride Avid Mechs because I like how well they work
considering how easy they are to own. I've bent rotors badly on the
trail and it was not difficult to handle on the Avid Mechs.

Did you notice any difference in modulation between an Avid mech and
a Juicy on the front wheel?

I noticed that there was more juicy modulation compared to the mechs, but
the power still ramped up pretty quick with lever pressure. The mechs are
always grabby.

Quoted message said:

When I tried an Avid mech on my front wheel, I thought it was a
little grabby - but wrote it off to something about the pad/rotor
combination and went back to my Hope C2.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Craig,
Thanks for the response ..... what are you asking for the brakes? I'm
still going to look up some stuff but thought I'd ask ... I ran your
email by a guy at work who rides and he said he had not heard anything
bad about the Avid's and it sounded like a good offer.

Let me know and I'll mull it over ........

todd

Craig Brossman said:

Todd Day said:

Hello to everyone ....
I've lurked here off and on for a while and appreciate all the useful
information I've gleaned about my favorite pastime, mountain biking.

I've got some questions pertaining to converting from v-brakes to disc
.... I wanted to get a few opinions before I spend any money!

I've been riding for just over 4 years. I have a 2001 Diamondback Apex
hardtail. I've done a few upgrades/improvements on it like replacing
the original Koski brakes with Shimanos, switching the pedals to Times
and converting all the drivetrain components to Shimano XTR's.

I really like this bike. Even though it's a hardtail and most of my
friends ride FS bikes, I'm in no hurry to switch. It just seems to fit
me just right and is solid as a rock. The frame has withstood numerous
crashes over 4 years with no breaks, cracks or dents. The Manitou fork
is probably not the best, but works well under the conditions I ride.

Now .... I've been considering upgrading to disc brakes for some time.
Everyone I talk to and/or ride with who has them on their bike just
raves about them.

My questions are: Should I start out with a mechanical system, or just
go straight to hydraulics? Is the price difference worth it? What are
the pros and cons of both systems?

And is it even worth putting discs on a bike like this??

What are some recomendations for quality disc brake systems which are
a good value for someone on a budget like me?

I hope none of these questions are stupid ... but I'm still learning a
lot about the sport and bikes in general and I've found there are a
lot of different viewpoints on all those subjects.

Thanks a ton for reading and I appreciate any help or just opinions
anyone has.

Mountain biking has changed my life and I want to get the most out of
it I can!

todd

If you decide to go with Avid Mechs and are interested in a used pair
w/levers, email me.

FYI, they were replaced by a pair if Juicys on my wife's ride. She is so
small and light, that the feel with the mechanicals was not for her. I
still ride Avid Mechs because I like how well they work considering how
easy they are to own. I've bent rotors badly on the trail and it was not
difficult to handle on the Avid Mechs.

G.T. said:

"(PeteCresswell)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Per Craig Brossman:

Quoted message said:

FYI, they were replaced by a pair if Juicys on my wife's ride. She is so
small and light, that the feel with the mechanicals was not for her. I
still ride Avid Mechs because I like how well they work considering how
easy they are to own. I've bent rotors badly on the trail and it was not
difficult to handle on the Avid Mechs.

Did you notice any difference in modulation between an Avid mech and a

Juicy on

Quoted message said:

the front wheel?

I'm still thinking about switching from a Juicy to a mech on the rear. I've
re-bled the rear and I'm still getting brake fade issues with it. No
problems whatsoever on the front. Even though the rear appears to be
bubble-free after the bleed I do a couple of short, steep downhills
scrubbing the rear brake and it fades to nothing. I look at the reservoir
at the lever and there are gigantic bubbles. This is with fresh, unopened
fluid.

Are you following the bleed instructions to the letter? I ask because
we just finished swithing a whole team over to Avids (and goodridge
lines). One of the mechanics was using the "traditional" purge through
or power bleed ... nothing but fade problems. We went back, started by
de-gassing the fluid, bled the caliper with the master cylinder closed,
bled the line (MC open), then bled the master cylinder with the caliper
closed. Now all the brakes work perfectly.

The really amazing part for most of the mechanics was de-gassing fresh
fuild ... draw a vacum on the syringe, and watch the bubbles form ...
just like being bent.

R

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G.T. said:

I'm still thinking about switching from a Juicy to a mech on the rear.

I've

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

re-bled the rear and I'm still getting brake fade issues with it. No
problems whatsoever on the front. Even though the rear appears to be
bubble-free after the bleed I do a couple of short, steep downhills
scrubbing the rear brake and it fades to nothing. I look at the

reservoir

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at the lever and there are gigantic bubbles. This is with fresh,

unopened

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fluid.

Are you following the bleed instructions to the letter? I ask because
we just finished swithing a whole team over to Avids (and goodridge
lines). One of the mechanics was using the "traditional" purge through
or power bleed ... nothing but fade problems. We went back, started by
de-gassing the fluid, bled the caliper with the master cylinder closed,
bled the line (MC open), then bled the master cylinder with the caliper
closed. Now all the brakes work perfectly.

The really amazing part for most of the mechanics was de-gassing fresh
fuild ... draw a vacum on the syringe, and watch the bubbles form ...
just like being bent.

I followed them to a T. But, this last time I once again was hurried so
maybe I'll sit down when I have zero distractions and do it once more.

Goodridges are now available for Avid? I hadn't checked for awhile.

Greg

What brand of disk hubs do you have in mind?

--
DTW .../\.../\.../\...

"

The Avid mechanical brake isn't that much better than a V-Brake, but
the brake is very trouble-free and easy to install and maintain.
Changing the pads takes just a few seconds. Probably you should wait
for the brake until you need a new wheel, if you're trying to save
money,though.

The 6-inch Avid will fade on a long steep descent, though. (For
example, Julie Creek near Lowman, Idaho.)

http://www.gpstrailmaps.com/idaho/JulieCreek/JulieCreek.html

Dave

I haven't read your other responses, but putting disks on that bike is
kinda like putting a dress on a pig, no offense intended. I have a
Diamondback Outlook that is similar to yours that I keep around for a
loaner. I can't imagine going from v-brakes to discs on that, what
with buying new wheels, buying the brakes, etc. and still having an
old-school hardtail.

I have Avid mechanicals on the Rev, and love them, but good avids on
the other mtnbikes, and they work just fine. But if you find yourself
on long, sustained downhills, and you're gonna keep the bike, you
wouldn't regret the ease you'll get on your hands by using discs over
rim brakes.

YMMV, but hey.

CDB

(PeteCresswell) said:

Per Craig Brossman:

Quoted message said:

FYI, they were replaced by a pair if Juicys on my wife's ride. She is so
small and light, that the feel with the mechanicals was not for her. I
still ride Avid Mechs because I like how well they work considering how
easy they are to own. I've bent rotors badly on the trail and it was not
difficult to handle on the Avid Mechs.

Did you notice any difference in modulation between an Avid mech and a Juicy on
the front wheel?

When I tried an Avid mech on my front wheel, I thought it was a little grabby -
but wrote it off to something about the pad/rotor combination and went back to
my Hope C2.

My wife went from the Avid Mechs. to the Juicys, but she did complain
about grabby nature of mechs. I notice a bit as well, but I'm going
faster and carry more weight, so it is not a problem for me.

--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado

Owner/Operator of the Pekingnese Ranch.

Phil said:

I'm thinking about switching my Hayes Mags to Avid Mechs because pad
adjustment is so easy.

You can send them to me. ;^)