Disappointed

sogood said:

Yes, there's definitely a does-response relationship. At higher does, he WILL suffer in due course!

I suspect he is getting it at a rather low does (similar to Estrogen therapy). But it would be interesting to find out just what dose range he is on, and if the effect at that does range can really translates to improved athletic performance?

I believe the line is too fine to measure using HRT to increase hormones to natural production levels for that age group and crossing that line where it gives an athlete an advantage over a field of competitors.

IMO - a banned substance is a banned substance and it is too bad that a person may not be able to compete because of natural deficiencies, but athletic federations cannot fairly monitor those fine lines between medical needs and performance advantages. The person needs to make the choice between competition by the rules or sitting out of competition because they believe their health and the use of medication is more important than competition. It only takes a small dosage increase for that person to gain an edge over many in the field of competitors. They may not be able to beat the rare genetically gifted, but they have a better edge over the rest of the field (if they are properly trained).

Alex Simmons said:

I wish no ill will on someone who by all accounts seems a pretty decent guy.

None of this stops me trying to be my best by training smart and training hard, nor will it impact my enjoyment of competition.

Huh??? This guy is NOT a decent guy! He's a frickin' cheater. He's a fraud! Let's call a spade a spade here!! All this Politicallly Correct B.S. lights a fire under me😠 !! You're just plain and simply too nice. I wouldn't call the guy out and name names, but I'm not going to consider him "pretty decent guy" either. You can't have it both ways, neither can your cheatin' buddy. You either stand for something, or you fall for anything...The guy's scum if you ask me and I would NEVER consider that person a decent guy. My $0.03 worth...

My stance on drugs in sport has changed dramatically over the course of the year. Infact it almost changes day to day...Personally I like 99% of you on this forum don't consider PED's an option but my stance on OTHERS doing this kind of thing is very blurred. Not everyone is brought up with the same moral's as me some ppl are brought up to win, some people are brought up to win and still be morally correct.

The OP seems to be stuck between a rock and a hard place in which I don't think he has any space to move. If there was any chance of mentioning it to this rider and still not reveal your source I think thats the best option. maybe something like this "Hey I hear your on HGH man, dont ask how I know this but what were the reasons for it? Im not being judgemental I am just interested".

If it were a junior rider and I had to compete against him then of course I would be disapointed. If I came 2nd to this rider I would be distraught and probably feel like revealing what he has done atleast to a few close mates/ rellies etc.

To the person who hoped there was a complication to the injection then YOU are the one with the problem. Good people do stupid things all the time its no reason to hope they die. He probably isn't even doing it for performance anyway. I doubt a small dose of HGH will do anything except get the guys confidence up!

tonyzackery said:

Huh??? This guy is NOT a decent guy! He's a frickin' cheater. He's a fraud! Let's call a spade a spade here!! All this Politicallly Correct B.S. lights a fire under me😠 !! You're just plain and simply too nice. I wouldn't call the guy out and name names, but I'm not going to consider him "pretty decent guy" either. You can't have it both ways, neither can your cheatin' buddy. You either stand for something, or you fall for anything...The guy's scum if you ask me and I would NEVER consider that person a decent guy. My $0.03 worth...

I'm not 100% sure he has cheated, you are allowed drugs for disabilities etc etc. The issue is that the drug being taken to deal with the midlife issue has a side effect of enhancing his cycling performance. A loop hole ?

mikesbytes said:

I'm not 100% sure he has cheated, you are allowed drugs for disabilities etc etc. The issue is that the drug being taken to deal with the midlife issue has a side effect of enhancing his cycling performance. A loop hole ?

No loop hole. It's clearly listed as a banned substance.
asada.gov.auprohibitedlist.htmOpen ↗

Alex Simmons said:

No loop hole. It's clearly listed as a banned substance.
asada.gov.auprohibitedlist.htmOpen ↗

But what about "Therapeutic Use Exemptions" http://www.wada-ama.org/en/prohibitedlist.ch2 Appears that you need to have applied for an exemption.

Couldn't find the Australian rules on drugs.

mikesbytes said:

But what about "Therapeutic Use Exemptions" http://www.wada-ama.org/en/prohibitedlist.ch2 Appears that you need to have applied for an exemption.

Couldn't find the Australian rules on drugs.

You didn't look very hard at the link I posted! They are the Australian rules. We comply with WADA anyway.

TUEs are very limited in application (asthma inhalers & topical creams for certain inflammations is about it). The asthma TUE was tightened up significantly a year or two ago as it was getting silly. Apparently a ridiculously large percentage of the pro peleton had asthma.... now they don't.

I coach an athlete approaching menopause. The commonly prescribed hormone treatments are banned and she cannot get an exemption (she's tried). It makes for difficult choices for some people.

Alex Simmons said:

You didn't look very hard at the link I posted! They are the Australian rules. We comply with WADA anyway.

TUEs are very limited in application (asthma inhalers & topical creams for certain inflammations is about it). The asthma TUE was tightened up significantly a year or two ago as it was getting silly. Apparently a ridiculously large percentage of the pro peleton had asthma.... now they don't.

I coach an athlete approaching menopause. The commonly prescribed hormone treatments are banned and she cannot get an exemption (she's tried). It makes for difficult choices for some people.

as was the case for Chris Boardman wanting medication to prevent his problems - which weren't allowed. Additionally, wasn't there a US rider in the TdF a few years ago who got stung (wasp/bee?) and needed some topical corticosteroid to reduce the inflammation (but wasn't allowed if he wished to continue in the race).

The rules are specific -- even if you need something as a medicine for a disease/condition you have, you're unlikely to get a TUE for it.

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

as was the case for Chris Boardman wanting medication to prevent his problems - which weren't allowed. Additionally, wasn't there a US rider in the TdF a few years ago who got stung (wasp/bee?) and needed some topical corticosteroid to reduce the inflammation (but wasn't allowed if he wished to continue in the race).

The rules are specific -- even if you need something as a medicine for a disease/condition you have, you're unlikely to get a TUE for it.

ric

Jonathon Vaughters, St. 15, TdF 2001

Alex Simmons said:

Jonathon Vaughters, St. 15, TdF 2001

Gawd, was it almost six ago already :eek:

Alex Simmons said:

You didn't look very hard at the link I posted! They are the Australian rules. We comply with WADA anyway.

TUEs are very limited in application (asthma inhalers & topical creams for certain inflammations is about it). The asthma TUE was tightened up significantly a year or two ago as it was getting silly. Apparently a ridiculously large percentage of the pro peleton had asthma.... now they don't.

I coach an athlete approaching menopause. The commonly prescribed hormone treatments are banned and she cannot get an exemption (she's tried). It makes for difficult choices for some people.

Sorry, didn't notice it was an Aussie page, as when you click on the links, they go to international pages. I was thinking of a cycling NSW or cycling Australia page or something, perhaps it was a pamplet that was sent out with your racing licence, which reminds me that I haven't received my 2007 card.

As I had stated previously, sporting federations cannot monitor each athlete and it would be near impossible to administer hormones as replacement therapy to "natural" levels and then for the federation to monitor to those levels in thousands of athletes.

If approval was given to some imagine how many guys in their 30's would all of the sudden be in dire need of hormone therapy because their urologist tested them with "naturally" low GH and testosterone levels.

If approvals are given (and some may be given because I am not aware of each type of athletic event or their rules) it would make the fuzzy line more fuzzy and it would be total chaos.

It is already hard enough to catch the craftier athletes that have the finances to have designer drugs like a testosterone that just about matches their own personal signature or growth hormone that is tough to detect.

However, in the case of Alex (I am not sure about all of the conditions) if he has proof positve about this person. For example in the US we hear about Barry Bonds using PED's, but unless I actually saw him preparing a syringe and sticking into to his hip I will not be his accuser. The reason why is we as a society need to be cautious as to who we accuse because of the damage it could do to someone who is innocent. Another example is Floyd Landis. If he is innocent (I have no idea either way) look at the damage that has occurred in his life. He will never be the same again in the public's eye and that is a shame if he is innocent. In other words I wouldn't accuse one of my more despised opponents because I realize the damage it could do to that person.

Since I was a user for a long period of time I see this differently than many of you. I see it as a problem like anorexia. During my time I became obessessed with many different issues and it was a sickness that eventually nearly ruined my life. I lost a wife, I almost lost my freedom and I came close to losing my life because I became suicidal from the depression after coming off the first few cycles of AAS (I didn't know how to cope with it). I can understand the passion that people have toward users, but I also get to counsel local athletes every now and then.

mikesbytes said:

Sorry, didn't notice it was an Aussie page, as when you click on the links, they go to international pages. I was thinking of a cycling NSW or cycling Australia page or something, perhaps it was a pamplet that was sent out with your racing licence, which reminds me that I haven't received my 2007 card.

Hmmm, I checked the link - it goes straight to ASADA's web site. The cycling administrations don't look after the doping issues, ASADA do.

2007 licence cards have been delayed. Some [censored] about delays in finalising insurance. Make sure you have your club receipt, that will suffice in the meantime.

BTW - by signing the forms and card, you signify that you accept the terms and conditions of competing, including abiding by the rules concerning doping.

Don't worry Alex, I think I'm thinking about the pamplet that came with my racing license.

Receipt for 2007 doesn't exist if you paid online.

Recon they should do ramdom drug testing as per the Aussie power lifting association. The could front up to a race and sample a few riders at ramdom.

mikesbytes said:

Receipt for 2007 doesn't exist if you paid online.

No receipt, no racing. My 'confirmation' receipt email never arrived, I called CA and had them fax it to me.

I was asked to produce it on Sunday when I raced with the vets.

--brett

sideshow_bob said:

No receipt, no racing. My 'confirmation' receipt email never arrived, I called CA and had them fax it to me.

I was asked to produce it on Sunday when I raced with the vets.

--brett

[censored]... I fly back to Sydney Friday evening and was intending to do Heffron Saturday. That is assuming that the drugs they gave me to prevent me from falling asleep on the job (after partying all night with my co-workers) as worn off 🙂

Alex Simmons said:

I discovered recently that a competitor in my age category is a regular user of HGH (the expensive treatment as administered by a doctor, not the internet [censored]), supposedly for its "anti-aging" properties. This competitor is world class level masters athlete (as defined by actual results).

Now I have no reason to doubt they are a fine and would probably be a world class athlete sans HGH. But it is disappointing.

I did a bit of reading on HGH - while it is listed as a banned substance by WADA, it seems it is difficult to detect its use.

What experiences have others had when they have learned something similar?

Thats depressing..........I am working towards some masters cycling goals myself. Some of the goals are in fact medals and jerseys, but more often they are just against the clock and as silly as it sounds , the powermeter. I am not suggesting that you give up your goals for wins, but from reading your posts and blog you are clearly training for much more than medals . That said, how or if you choose to approach this person should be based on the relationship you have with him. If there is no relationship that allows you to speak into his life in such a way, you will be met with less than favorable results. BTW your blog is cool

Another supervet bites the dust.

"US cyclist receives eight-year doping ban"

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=afp-cyclingusaalfred&prov=afp&type=lgns

One of the great attractions of Masters cycling to me is that it is back to doing as well as you can, and enjoying doing it. No dreams of TdF's and 6-Days.
I'm not sure how you got to find out about the HGH treatment (presumably through an indesputable means) but, regardless of whether it is for medical reasons, performance-enhancing reasons, or just plain vanity, it's use is banned. Therefore, knowingly or unknowingly, he is cheating. It is a shame that it still happens in Masters cycling (when we're supposed to be past all that [censored]), but it apparently does.
My own view is the one we were taught when we were kids - Cheats are only cheating themselves. In cycling (as an old [censored]), I have no problem with coming second to someone who is cheating. I wouldn't want it to taint my view of my own performance.
On a human level, I would be more concerned about the effects he may be having on his mind and body, than how many titles he walks away with. That is the only thing that I would consider talking to him about.
Maybe I just don't take it seriously enough, but that's exactly how I want it to be - Other views may differ.