Difficulty in tire changing

I usually think it's easier to unstick the bead from the rim for the
entire circumference of the tire before trying to insert a lever. Is
this the opposite of what you (Roger) are saying to do?

While the o.p. says it isn't just his technique that is causing
difficulty, perhaps he could detail his technique, and we could
critique it.

Also, I recently bought some plastic-covered steel levers (by Soma)
which seem to be pretty good - I had broken a few short plastic levers
recently, which might indicate that my own technique may be a problem.

PW

Roger Moss (BINTHISBIT) said:

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
. It's not

Quoted message said:

just my technique causing the difficulty.

This may be stating the obvious, but are you seating the rest of the tyre
bead right down in the well of the wheel when you attempt to lift a section
over the rim to get things started? I try to avoid tyre levers altogether,
as they can all too easily pinch the tube - mostly I can remove/replace a
tyre without resorting to them. Takes a little practice, but eventually the
technique comes.

Watch the guys in the car tyre shops and if they know their craft you'll see
them popping the bead down into the well as far around the wheel as
possible, just leaving the section they'll be lifting over the rim. Since
most car tyres are tubeless. levers generally don't pose too much of a
threat, but if the rest of the bead isn't seated in the well then brute
force on a long lever can wreck the bead...

Good luck, and watch out for your thumbs :-)

RM

Arthur Harris said:

Paul Cassel said:

Conti Gatorskins. The LBS which had them said they'd ruin the ride of my
pricey bike with its ultra modern wheels.

They didn't really say that, did they? BTW, how much performance difference
did you notice between the $10 cheapies you had originally, and the $50
Contis?

Yes that's EXACTLY what they said. I think the new tires turn better
than the old tires, but I'm comparing worn tires to new ones. They may
roll a bit better, but I have them at 130 psi compared to 100 psi for
the old cheap ones. Also the new ones are 20 mm on front so those two
factors may account for the diff.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I bought a used bike with excellent high end gruppos and wheels

Quoted message said:

The fancy components sort of have me trapped. I'd feel bad strapping on
heavy tubes and tires onto my exquisitely lightweight aero wheels thus
negating the value of these wheels.

Ah, now I remember. You're the guy who liked the look of your boutique
wheels even if they weren't durable. I suggest you get some practical tires
that you can at least remove if you get a flat. I really don't see the point
of the 20mm front tire. What do you think that's doing for you?

Yeah, I'm that guy. I'm unsure if my wheels will really be all that
evanescent, but I did say that I thought 36 spoke three cross wheels
would look, at best, odd on this particular bike. So I'll stick with the
wheels which came on the bike (no marginal cost there either) and live
with it if they wear out in 5k miles. I can afford new wheels every 5k
miles.

I bought this bike from a guy in FL who rides 500 miles a week. He was
paring his bike collection down to 18 (!). It came with the 20/23 combo
in tires. I figure this guy must know his stuff and he clearly puts me
to shame in experience so I imitated his setup when buying the tires.
The older cheap tires came off of my borrowed ride. The guy I borrowed
it from won't ride tires thinner than 28's so I bought a set of 28's for
him when I returned the bike.

When I got the current tires, it never occured to me that I'd have the
difficulty. Yes, I need some practical tires which don't assume a SAG
wagon. Live and learn.

-paul

Paul Cassel said:

It seems to me that if there is a problem possible in my new hobby of
bicycle riding, I'll hit it. Here's one that I haven't seen addressed
either here or in other fora or in any archives that I can find. Maybe
I'm searching on the wrong criteria.

I wore out a set of inexpensive ($10 each) road tires very quickly. They
also punctured often. I decided that it'd be cheaper in the long run to
buy better tires which I hoped, would be less susceptible to puncturing.
I live in an area where flats are a part of bicycle riding - so I'm
told by the experienced riders here. That is, unless I'm willing to
install plastic liners and very heavy tubes which will pull the life out
of my road bike, I'm going to flat so I may as well get used to the
idea. I'd rather carry a spare tube, inflator and patch kid than ruin
the road bicycling experience by excessive defenses against flat tires.

So I bought, based on some ads, a set of Continental 4000 tires at a
brutal $50 apiece. The problem with these otherwise excellent tires is
that I can't get them on and off in the field. I can barely get them on
or off in my garage using my 40 cm long tire irons. There is no way I
can do anything for them in the field with my portable tools including
my Crank Bros sliding tire iron. The old tires flatted often, but came
on and off easily using the Crank Bros tool or the shorty plastic levers
which came in my kit. After wrestling the first Conti 4000 tire on, I
took the second with the wheel to an LBS where the wrench agreed with me
that getting these tires on and off was extremely difficult. It's not
just my technique causing the difficulty.

So I think the Conti's are useless for me. Before I buy another set of
tires and do (???) with these almost new Conti 4000's, I'd like to know
what tires I can get on and off easily. I have heavily hooked rims which
make the job even tougher, but it was easily doable using the cheap
tires. Is there some sort of way I can infer ease in changing while
shopping? I'm now looking at Michelin Carbons, but sure don't want to
spend real money again on a tire I can't mount / dismount in the field.

How do you determine this tire characteristic? Thanks.

As already mentioned, rim size, tire bead size, and rim strip thickness
determine how easy or difficult it is to mount tires. In another post
you mentioned having Campagnolo rims. You will always have difficulty
mounting any tire on earth on Campagnolo wheels. Even with the
thinnest rim strip. Get used to it. And get a thinner rim strip than
you already have. It helps a little. My Ventos wheels now use one
layer of 3M strapping tape around the rim and 3 short, small sections
of tape over the spoke holes as rim tape. Tires are Vredestein
Fortezza Tricomp. Tire levers are needed to get them off and lots of
thumb strength is needed to get them on. But its a vast improvement
over the original green Michelin rim strip tape. Continental Grand
Prix 3000 tires were just as difficult to mount on these wheels.

For your next set of tires, take your wheels to the local bike shop and
tell them you want to buy tires that easily fit on the wheels. You
won't find any. But you can try to find some in the shop that are
easier than others. Try this right there in the store. Then buy the
tires. If the shop says no, go to a good bike shop.

On this morning's ride I had a flat on the rear wheel. Continental
Ultra 3000 tires. Mavic Open Pro rims. Velox cloth rim strip. A
blind, 100 year old arthritic woman could have gotten the tire on and
off with only her hands it was so easy.

Quoted message said:

I usually think it's easier to unstick the bead from the rim for the
entire circumference of the tire before trying to insert a lever. Is
this the opposite of what you (Roger) are saying to do?

While the o.p. says it isn't just his technique that is causing
difficulty, perhaps he could detail his technique, and we could
critique it.

Also, I recently bought some plastic-covered steel levers (by Soma)
which seem to be pretty good - I had broken a few short plastic levers
recently, which might indicate that my own technique may be a problem.

PW

'Unstick' the bead all around both sides, push the off bead into the
center of the wheel well (I may not be doing this 100% per another
poster) and then lever off a part of the tire. Then, on the old tires, I
slid the lever around to pull off one side of the tire bead from the
wheel. The new tires are so tight I can't, using the portable levers,
even pull the bead open enough to start the procedure. The levers just
bend while the tire isn't even affected. I am unsure if I have the hand
strength to use short levers on the 4000's anyway. It takes some effort
using the 40 cm steel levers.

With the Crank tool, I'd stick it under the bead, then circle it around
the tire. I never had a pinched tube using the Crank.

To remount, I'd hand / thumb the entire tire onto the rim until the very
last section which I'd pop with a lever. Using the Crank tool, I'd just
run that all around the tire.

Quoted message said:

Paul Cassel said:

It seems to me that if there is a problem possible in my new hobby of
bicycle riding, I'll hit it. Here's one that I haven't seen addressed
either here or in other fora or in any archives that I can find. Maybe
I'm searching on the wrong criteria.

I wore out a set of inexpensive ($10 each) road tires very quickly. They
also punctured often. I decided that it'd be cheaper in the long run to
buy better tires which I hoped, would be less susceptible to puncturing.
I live in an area where flats are a part of bicycle riding - so I'm
told by the experienced riders here. That is, unless I'm willing to
install plastic liners and very heavy tubes which will pull the life out
of my road bike, I'm going to flat so I may as well get used to the
idea. I'd rather carry a spare tube, inflator and patch kid than ruin
the road bicycling experience by excessive defenses against flat tires.

So I bought, based on some ads, a set of Continental 4000 tires at a
brutal $50 apiece. The problem with these otherwise excellent tires is
that I can't get them on and off in the field. I can barely get them on
or off in my garage using my 40 cm long tire irons. There is no way I
can do anything for them in the field with my portable tools including
my Crank Bros sliding tire iron. The old tires flatted often, but came
on and off easily using the Crank Bros tool or the shorty plastic levers
which came in my kit. After wrestling the first Conti 4000 tire on, I
took the second with the wheel to an LBS where the wrench agreed with me
that getting these tires on and off was extremely difficult. It's not
just my technique causing the difficulty.

So I think the Conti's are useless for me. Before I buy another set of
tires and do (???) with these almost new Conti 4000's, I'd like to know
what tires I can get on and off easily. I have heavily hooked rims which
make the job even tougher, but it was easily doable using the cheap
tires. Is there some sort of way I can infer ease in changing while
shopping? I'm now looking at Michelin Carbons, but sure don't want to
spend real money again on a tire I can't mount / dismount in the field.

How do you determine this tire characteristic? Thanks.

As already mentioned, rim size, tire bead size, and rim strip thickness
determine how easy or difficult it is to mount tires. In another post
you mentioned having Campagnolo rims. You will always have difficulty
mounting any tire on earth on Campagnolo wheels. Even with the
thinnest rim strip. Get used to it. And get a thinner rim strip than
you already have. It helps a little. My Ventos wheels now use one
layer of 3M strapping tape around the rim and 3 short, small sections
of tape over the spoke holes as rim tape. Tires are Vredestein
Fortezza Tricomp. Tire levers are needed to get them off and lots of
thumb strength is needed to get them on. But its a vast improvement
over the original green Michelin rim strip tape. Continental Grand
Prix 3000 tires were just as difficult to mount on these wheels.

For your next set of tires, take your wheels to the local bike shop and
tell them you want to buy tires that easily fit on the wheels. You
won't find any. But you can try to find some in the shop that are
easier than others. Try this right there in the store. Then buy the
tires. If the shop says no, go to a good bike shop.

On this morning's ride I had a flat on the rear wheel. Continental
Ultra 3000 tires. Mavic Open Pro rims. Velox cloth rim strip. A
blind, 100 year old arthritic woman could have gotten the tire on and
off with only her hands it was so easy.

Thanks. I'll try the Gatorskins at my LBS. At least if I say I want easy
to mount tires and they aren't, I can have a basis to complain.

I took a lot of static here as a newbie with fancy wheels. I guess I was
lucky in having VERY easy to mount tires before with these Campy rims
and now have to live with them for the style they're affording me.

Lesson #2 learned - all rims aren't equal in mounting ease. According to
the experts here, my wheels aren't long for this world so I may, like it
or not, get to buy new rims sooner than I'd thought. I'll consider tire
mounting ease when I buy.

I read a bunch of beginner type books on bike riding. None of them seem
to address ANY of the actual issues I hit. Even Jobst's book, as I
remember, didn't mention tire mounting. Maybe I missed it.

-paul

Lou Holtman said:

Agree they are excellent (training) tyres, but they are not all that
cheap though (32 euro according to TOUR magazine).

They are a lot cheaper than that in mail order. The mail order company
which I often use lists them at 16.7 euros - http://www.bike-components.de .

-as

Antti Salonen said:

In the latest issue of the German magazine "Tour" there's
a test of 23-mm clinchers, and reportedly the Ultra GatorSkin had a
reasonably low rolling resistance - Lower than for example Continental
Grand Prix 3000 (!).

Any chance we could get a translation of the test results?

Paul Cassel said:

The fancy components sort of have me trapped.

Not necessarily. You could sell your fancy bits on ebay and get
something that makes more sense... and end up money ahead.

Or, where the wheels are concerned you could buy another set that is
more practical (with a steel cassette!), put some durable tires on
them, and use the fancy ones only when you are in the mood to "show
off". If you find that you are never in that mood, then you could sell
them. It's nice to have an extra set of wheels anyway.

With the short levers, have you ever tried using two or three at a
time? I often do it this way: After unsticking the bead from the rim
around the entire circumference, stick three levers withing about four
inches of each other, then simultaneously push all three down. Then I
hook two of the levers to the spokes, and start sliding the third
around the circumference of the tire.

PW

Paul Cassel said:

'Unstick' the bead all around both sides, push the off bead into the
center of the wheel well (I may not be doing this 100% per another
poster) and then lever off a part of the tire. Then, on the old tires, I
slid the lever around to pull off one side of the tire bead from the
wheel. The new tires are so tight I can't, using the portable levers,
even pull the bead open enough to start the procedure. The levers just
bend while the tire isn't even affected. I am unsure if I have the hand
strength to use short levers on the 4000's anyway. It takes some effort
using the 40 cm steel levers.

With the Crank tool, I'd stick it under the bead, then circle it around
the tire. I never had a pinched tube using the Crank.

To remount, I'd hand / thumb the entire tire onto the rim until the very
last section which I'd pop with a lever. Using the Crank tool, I'd just
run that all around the tire.

On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 08:47:03 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I guess there is an entry cost to every sport. I'm paying mine. At its
worst, it won't be nearly as close to what I've paid for sailing
experience.

Bikes are pretty minor money pits compared to boats, yeah.

Jasper

On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 09:53:13 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

dvt said:

Paul Cassel said:

Live and learn. I hope this is the last expensive lesson I need to
learn. Previously I learned my chain has a huge owner's manual and I
better learn to maintain it because the cassette costs over $300 to
replace if I don't get it right. <sigh>

$300 cassette???

Yeah. It's Ti.

Dura Ace titanium cassettes are about $150 mail order. Campy record
200-250. $300 is a ripoff for DA but reasonable LBS price for Record. But,
seriously, unlike the wheels, *nobody*'s gonna be able to spot from more
than a few inches off whether or not your cassette is a $150 DA or a
$40-50 Ultegra/105 10sp. On the minus side, of course, it'd be a *real
damn shame* to ruin a DA cassette, even if your replacement cost isn't
$300.

Jasper

Ron Ruff said:

Paul Cassel said:

The fancy components sort of have me trapped.

Not necessarily. You could sell your fancy bits on ebay and get
something that makes more sense... and end up money ahead.

Or, where the wheels are concerned you could buy another set that is
more practical (with a steel cassette!), put some durable tires on
them, and use the fancy ones only when you are in the mood to "show
off". If you find that you are never in that mood, then you could sell
them. It's nice to have an extra set of wheels anyway.

That's a thought, but then I'd still have a bike with what I consider
odd looking wheels which don't go with the package. I've taken guff here
on this board for being concerned with such things so don't think you
need to add to the pile on here.

The steel cassette is something like 80% cheaper. It's stuff like this
which I find sort of trapping me. I can buy the steel cassette when my
Ti one wears out, but then I'm losing whatever I am gaining by having
other very light components. Maybe this is a stage we pass through in
equipment oriented activities.

For example, in photography, we have 'measurebators' who are concerned
with every little measurement and rating. These guys sell their 6 mp
cameras when they can get an 8 mp one. Then they envy the guys with the
12's or higher. Meanwhile, ex pros like myself run around with the
equivalent of Instamatics or Brownies and we seem to do ok. I'm enjoying
the new digital revolution in photography mostly because it's made great
cameras like the original Nikons almost worthless.

Just like in bicycles, you can't buy speed - in photography you can't
buy art.

My friend, who is an ex pro racer and ex LBS wrench, just smiles at my
interest in fancy wheels and carbon stem cap. His idea of an ideal ride
is his single speed which probably masses almost double my 20 speed.

Some guys never emerge from being photography measurebators. They are
always chasing the latest equipment thinking that the perfect shot is
there if only they had that right lens or the right meter or the right
body or something. Some come out of it and then realize that the art of
photography is not in the equipment, but in you.

OTOH, I enjoy my overly done excessively light probably very fragile
bike because I do enjoy fine machinery. I find great enjoyment in riding
a bike so light yet so precise and rugged in the sense that I can pedal
as hard as I can yet it will not bend or break. Maybe as my experience
grows, I'll become like my friend who also appreciates fine machinery,
but has a more catholic idea of what fine may be. His includes a 28 lb
single speed road bike just as in photography mine includes a 1960's era
Nikon.

Maybe I'll never emerge, but whatever the future, I'm there now.

-paul

Jasper Janssen said:

On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 08:47:03 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I guess there is an entry cost to every sport. I'm paying mine. At its
worst, it won't be nearly as close to what I've paid for sailing
experience.

Bikes are pretty minor money pits compared to boats, yeah.

Bikes are cheap compared to most any activity. I currently have three
motorcycles the cheapest of which would be the most expensive bicycle -
or close to it. Folks here may talk about throwing money away on a $4k
or even $8k bike, but gee, that's nothing compared to other things not
just brutally expensive items like boats or airplanes.

Also bicycling doesn't cost much to do. For all my whining about these
tires, it's only $100. I'm not a poor student who will have to dumpster
dive to make up that money - I have a decent job. Take skiing which my
daughter does. I'd love it to only cost me $100 each time she goes.
Meanwhile, we've been riding all over this summer for a total cost of a
few inner tubes.

A friend of mine is about to start building his new hot rod. That'll
cost him a quarter million before he's done yet be worth maybe $30k
after he gets tired of it and wants to build a new one.

I could have spent $5k for me and my daughter to spend a week at
Disneyworld or a tiny fraction of that to spend the same time spread
over a summer riding together. Even if I bought us both $2.5k bikes, the
cost would be the same. Yet at the end of the summer, we'd still have
our bikes and a lot of good times (and strong legs) where that same
money spent at Disney would just be a waste.

No, bikes really aren't expenisve - even the expensive ones.

-paul

Jasper Janssen said:

Dura Ace titanium cassettes are about $150 mail order. Campy record
200-250. $300 is a ripoff for DA but reasonable LBS price for Record. But,
seriously, unlike the wheels, *nobody*'s gonna be able to spot from more
than a few inches off whether or not your cassette is a $150 DA or a
$40-50 Ultegra/105 10sp. On the minus side, of course, it'd be a *real
damn shame* to ruin a DA cassette, even if your replacement cost isn't
$300.

It's a Record C10 gruppo (2005 model). The price I saw was $339
somewhere. The previous owner threw in a spare Ti cassette so I own't
need to face this for some time.

As far as anybody spotting me, I don't give a *#&&# about anybody. That
includes my comments about the wheels. I don't care even a slight fig if
every fancy guy in his sponsor shirt get up thinks I look like an idiot.
What I do care about is aesthetics for my own satisfication. *I'd* know
it's not real and I'd not be happy.

It's like if I could buy a fake Rolex which 100% could not be detected.
I'd still not because I care about my internal image to myself. As far
as the public, I don't even care 1% if I"m laughed at or made fun of.

-paul

Quoted message said:

With the short levers, have you ever tried using two or three at a
time? I often do it this way: After unsticking the bead from the rim
around the entire circumference, stick three levers withing about four
inches of each other, then simultaneously push all three down. Then I
hook two of the levers to the spokes, and start sliding the third
around the circumference of the tire.

No, I never tried that. I will give it a shot, but am not thinking that
this will solve the issues I have with the 4000's. Thanks for the tip.

On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:22:23 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

My friend, who is an ex pro racer and ex LBS wrench, just smiles at my
interest in fancy wheels and carbon stem cap. His idea of an ideal ride
is his single speed which probably masses almost double my 20 speed.

A single speed, even a 'heavy' one, ought to be a bit lighter tha a
derailer-equipped bike. Certainly not a factor of two.

Jasper

On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:38:06 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Jasper Janssen said:

Dura Ace titanium cassettes are about $150 mail order. Campy record
200-250. $300 is a ripoff for DA but reasonable LBS price for Record. But,
seriously, unlike the wheels, *nobody*'s gonna be able to spot from more
than a few inches off whether or not your cassette is a $150 DA or a
$40-50 Ultegra/105 10sp. On the minus side, of course, it'd be a *real
damn shame* to ruin a DA cassette, even if your replacement cost isn't
$300.

It's a Record C10 gruppo (2005 model). The price I saw was $339
somewhere. The previous owner threw in a spare Ti cassette so I own't
need to face this for some time.

Would you mind if I asked you how much you paid for this bike? With things
like Record cassettes thrown in, it sounds like you got a good deal
indeed.

Quoted message said:

As far as anybody spotting me, I don't give a *#&&# about anybody. That
includes my comments about the wheels. I don't care even a slight fig if
every fancy guy in his sponsor shirt get up thinks I look like an idiot.
What I do care about is aesthetics for my own satisfication. *I'd* know
it's not real and I'd not be happy.

Well, think of it this way: You are the equivalent of the glass, the
road's the equivalent of the film, and the bike is merely the equivalent
of the camera body. Would you prefer an F3 over a Nikkormat FTn, sure.
Does it help you take better pictures? Not so much. But if you got a
really good deal on an F5, you'd need to pay the Big Bucks to maintain and
repair it, which is mainly a case of 'suck it up and deal'. And you're
right, even the Big Bucks bikes aren't *that* expensive to maintain
compared to a car or motorcycle habit.

Jasper

Paul Cassel said:

These new tires boa st having some sort of bead and carcass
material which is even stronger / stiffer than Kevlar. That was what got
me the idea that it's combine the flat resistance of the Armadillo with
decent riding performance. Per my other post, and probably to your
amusement, I'm trapped by my overpriced wheels into using fairly light
tires / tubes.

My optimism was supported for the first few rides, but then I got a flat
and then a second flat on the same ride. The second flat was more than
th e sealant could handle necessitating a new tube which I couldn't do in
the field. Thus I walked back again.

Hmmm... if you are using lightweight tires for the increased
performance, you are sort of defeating that with the use of sealant.

The new material is Vectran. It's used only as a puncture resistant
belt, not for either the beads or the casing:
http://tinyurl.com/ahvco
http://tinyurl.com/cuc44
While the material may be stronger than Kevlar, that won't help much
with puncture resistance. Steel isn't as strong for the weight, but it
is more cut resistant. And nothing matters if a sharp object penetrates
an open weave. I certainly hope it isn't stiffer or more energy
absorbing as Kevlar, because if it is, Continental wasted its money
developing it.

Thanks for coughing up the dough to do the puncture testing. What are
the objects that are causing all the trouble in your area? Thorns? In
any case, don't throw the tires away: Vectran is a "liquid crystal
polymer", so you can use them to read rbt while you are riding and
listen to us tell you how you are going about everything wrong.

The lightweight tires I've seen with the thickest, hardest rubber seem
to be the Michelin Carbons. They're a little spendy ($35 range at
Nashbar), but you might consider giving them a try. Or spend a little
more of your ride examining the road in front of you.

Try taking a thorn to the remains of your previous tires and see how
easy or not it is to get it through them.

search tech archives for: DIY tire removal

Jasper Janssen said:

On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:22:23 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

My friend, who is an ex pro racer and ex LBS wrench, just smiles at my
interest in fancy wheels and carbon stem cap. His idea of an ideal ride
is his single speed which probably masses almost double my 20 speed.

A single speed, even a 'heavy' one, ought to be a bit lighter tha a
derailer-equipped bike. Certainly not a factor of two.

He prefers heavy, steel frames such as would work on an offroad bike. He
has no interest in 'fragile' frames such as usually seen on road bikes.
It sure doesn't seem to slow him down.