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different muscles for standing pedaling

Started by Ken Roberts · · Last activity · 13 posts · 553 views

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Cycling Equipment
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1 November 2006
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2 November 2006
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Ken Roberts
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  1. There's some opportunities to use unexpected muscles to help push the pedals
    while standing -- I'm offering four here -- because you have more freedom of
    body position when standing on the bike. I'm listing these four moves here
    because they can be fun to try out (and I couldn't figure out how to post
    them to rec.bicycling.fun). Also because some people have been saying
    recently on r.b.t that they believe that using more different muscles for
    pedaling will make you go faster -- so here's some chances for them to try
    to prove their point.

    More different muscles to help push while standing:
    (A) pull up on handlebar with arm
    (B) tilt pelvis to push hip down toward pedal
    (C) push upper leg sideways from hip (w bike tilted)
    (D) push lower leg sideways from knee
    .. (more details below)

    Questions:
    * which ones have you tried? which ones were fun?
    * did you find some others?
    * which ones seemed to help more?
    * which ones do pro racers use? in what situations?
    * which ones do pro racers not use? why not?

    more details on each move:

    (A) pull up on handlebar with arm.
    I see two possible modes of this:
    .. (A1) static: Prevent the upper body from rising, so more of the main leg
    down-push goes into pushing the pedal down, and less into lifting the weight
    of the upper body.
    .. (A2) dynamic: Actually move the upper body downward a little bit, so it
    adds positive Work to pushing on the pedal. (The key difference with A2 is
    that you don't just think about moving it, or try to move it -- you actually
    succeed in moving it down a little.)

    (B) tilt the pelvis sideways to push hip down toward pedal.
    While the hip on the downstroke moves down, the other hip tends to move up.
    Perhaps this is what kinesiologists call "Lateral Flexion" or "Abduction" of
    the lower spine?
    http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Spine.html#anchor166721
    The "rotational axis" of this move is a horizontal line front-to-back
    roughly thru center of pelvis or midpoint between hips.

    (C) push the upper leg + knee out sideways, from below hip joint (with bike
    tilted).
    This move only helps to push the pedal down if the hip is already out away
    to the side, nowhere near the seat or the top tube. I think the
    kinesiologists call this "Hip Abduction":
    http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Hip.html#anchor847041
    The "rotational axis" of this move is a horizontal line front-to-back thru
    the hip joint.

    (D) push the lower leg + ankle out sideways, from below knee joint (with
    bike tilted).
    This move only helps to push the pedal down if the knee is already out away
    to the side, not near bike frame.
    I think the kinesiologists call this "Medial Hip Rotation" or "Internal Hip
    Rotation":
    http://www.exrx.net/Articulations/Hip.html#anchor849446
    The "axis" of this move is roughly the long bone of the upper leg. If I'm
    standing with my leg straight, this move just aims my kneecap more inside
    toward the other leg, not very interesting. But if I'm sitting down with my
    knee bent and my lower leg hanging down, this move moves my whole lower leg
    with ankle toward the outside -- and that's the way to make it push the
    pedal down, if the knee is first put into a good position for it. Sometimes
    I've tried to exaggerate this knee position by thinking of "pointing" my
    knee out to the side.

    Ken

  2. "Ken Roberts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    There's some opportunities to use unexpected muscles to help push the
    pedals while standing -- I'm offering four here -- because you have
    more freedom of body position when standing on the bike. I'm listing
    these four moves here because they can be fun to try out (and I
    couldn't figure out how to post them to rec.bicycling.fun). Also
    because some people have been saying recently on r.b.t that they
    believe that using more different muscles for pedaling will make you
    go faster -- so here's some chances for them to try to prove their
    point.

    Supporting your whole body weight when riding has been found to be less
    effective.

    Phil H

  3. Phil Holman wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Ken Roberts wrote

    Quoted message said:

    some people have been saying ... they believe that using more different
    muscles for pedaling will make you go faster -- so here's some chances
    for them to try to prove their point.

    Quoted message said:

    Supporting your whole body weight when riding has been found to be less
    effective.

    OK, but the comparison would not be between standing pedaling (supporting
    body weight) versus seated pedaling (body weight resting on seat). It would
    be between standing pedaling (supporting body weight) _with_ more different
    muscles versus standing pedaling (supporting body weight) without more
    different muscles.

    I'm proposing to get that argument about "using more muscles" away from just
    quantitative: less hip-flexion versus more hip-flexion (and we're not sure
    how much the "less" is because we're not usually able to measure). Instead
    try out some new muscles (especially C + D), muscles where I can
    definitely tell if I'm using the muscle -- and especially to definitely tell
    if I'm not using it. I think being sure I'm not using the muscle is
    easier with muscles that I don't use hardly at all for pedaling. With
    muscles that I'm already familiar with using a lot, it's hard to be sure
    that my unconscious neuro-muscular control module is not engaging it without
    letting my conscious mind know.

    Ken

  4. Phil Holman said:

    Supporting your whole body weight when riding has been found to be less
    effective.

    It's less efficient, but when you've been working hard seated for a while,
    stretching out is a big relief.

    --
    Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

  5. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Ken Roberts said:

    Phil Holman wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Ken Roberts wrote

    Quoted message said:

    some people have been saying ... they believe that using more
    different muscles for pedaling will make you go faster -- so
    here's some chances for them to try to prove their point.

    Quoted message said:

    Supporting your whole body weight when riding has been found to be
    less effective.

    OK, but the comparison would not be between standing pedaling
    (supporting body weight) versus seated pedaling (body weight resting
    on seat). It would be between standing pedaling (supporting body
    weight) _with_ more different muscles versus standing pedaling
    (supporting body weight) without more different muscles.

    I'm proposing to get that argument about "using more muscles" away
    from just quantitative: less hip-flexion versus more hip-flexion (and
    we're not sure how much the "less" is because we're not usually able
    to measure). Instead try out some new muscles (especially C + D),
    muscles where I can definitely tell if I'm using the muscle -- and
    especially to definitely tell if I'm not using it. I think being
    sure I'm not using the muscle is easier with muscles that I don't
    use hardly at all for pedaling. With muscles that I'm already
    familiar with using a lot, it's hard to be sure that my unconscious
    neuro-muscular control module is not engaging it without letting my
    conscious mind know.

    I am reminded of the children's story of the centipede trying to figure
    out how to run.

    Ken, you can indulge in this kind of stuff if you like, but riding a
    bike is simple. Why make it more complicated?

  6. Tim McNamara wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I am reminded of the children's story of the centipede
    trying to figure out how to run.

    I am reminded of climbing up the north side of Col de l'Iseran and turning
    on move D and blowing past the rider ahead of me.

    I am reminded of a long evenly-graded boring section on a longer climb where
    it was nice to know some different moves to play with -- just to play.

    I am reminded of the first time I tried move C in the second half of a hill
    training workout, and it seemed like a whole new source of power that I
    could draw on.

    I am reminded of watching a Euro pro race on TV and noticing that one rider
    standing was pointing his knees out like method D, but two other riders were
    not.

    Quoted message said:

    riding a bike is simple. Why make it more complicated?

    The feeling of riding a bike is mostly simple.
    Technically and scientifically, what the muscles and nerves and brain
    control modules are doing while pedaling is very complicated and
    non-intuitive. This newsgroup is called rec.bicycles.tech, so it seems to
    me not inappropriate to get into the "Technically" stuff. Maybe somebody
    needs to start another newsgroup called rec.bicycles.just-keep-it-simple

    If somebody's got some scientific evidence that what's happening with
    muscles and neural activation timing while pedaling is "simple" -- by all
    means please share it.

    Ken

  7. Ken Roberts said:

    Phil Holman wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Ken Roberts wrote

    Quoted message said:

    some people have been saying ... they believe that using more different
    muscles for pedaling will make you go faster -- so here's some chances
    for them to try to prove their point.

    Quoted message said:

    Supporting your whole body weight when riding has been found to be less
    effective.

    OK, but the comparison would not be between standing pedaling (supporting
    body weight) versus seated pedaling (body weight resting on seat). It would
    be between standing pedaling (supporting body weight) _with_ more different
    muscles versus standing pedaling (supporting body weight) without more
    different muscles.

    I think the comparison _should_ be between sitting and standing,
    including pulling up on the bars and pulling up on the pedals when
    standing. Sitting is generally more efficient, but standing and pulling
    up lets you apply more power.

    In my experience, too much standing in big gears (or speep hills) can
    lead to muscle fatigue and cramping. But occasional standing is a good
    thing to stretch the back and give your butt a rest. And sometimes (on
    steep hills) you don't have a choice but to stand. I don't think
    tilting the bike and such makes much difference in itself, but is a
    natural part of standing and pulling on the bars.

    Art Harris

  8. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Michael Warner said:
    Phil Holman said:

    Supporting your whole body weight when riding has been found to be
    less effective.

    It's less efficient, but when you've been working hard seated for a
    while, stretching out is a big relief.

    Using a different set of muscles- or using the same set through a
    different range of movement- can provide a bit of rest for muscles that
    are fatigued.

  9. Ken Roberts said:

    More different muscles to help push while standing:
    (A) pull up on handlebar with arm

    When standing and pedaling hard, such as when sprinting uphill, a
    common technique is to pull up on the handlebar on the same side as
    your leg is pushing down. I assume that is what you meant.

    Tom

  10. On Nov 1, 1:10 am, "Ken Roberts" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    There's some opportunities to use unexpected muscles to help push the pedals
    while standing -- I'm offering four here -- because you have more freedom of
    body position when standing on the bike. I'm listing these four moves here
    because they can be fun to try out (and I couldn't figure out how to post
    them to rec.bicycling.fun). Also because some people have been saying
    recently on r.b.t that they believe that using more different muscles for
    pedaling will make you go faster -- so here's some chances for them to try
    to prove their point.
    Ken

    Yes these more different and more powerful muscles are the hips which
    are used to supply the power when riding out of the saddle. The other
    normally used muscles are used to increase and direct this power to the
    pedals. The trick is to make it possible to use this same hip technique
    when seated on the saddle with arm power used to compensate for gravity
    advantage lost on the saddle. Riding out of the saddle with total
    unweighting reduces the dead spot area effect, using the technique in
    the saddle with additional ankle technique completely eliminates it.

  11. Ken Roberts said:

    Tim McNamara wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I am reminded of the children's story of the centipede
    trying to figure out how to run.

    I am reminded of climbing up the north side of Col de l'Iseran and turning
    on move D and blowing past the rider ahead of me.

    I am reminded of a long evenly-graded boring section on a longer climb where
    it was nice to know some different moves to play with -- just to play.

    I am reminded of the first time I tried move C in the second half of a hill
    training workout, and it seemed like a whole new source of power that I
    could draw on.

    I am reminded of watching a Euro pro race on TV and noticing that one rider
    standing was pointing his knees out like method D, but two other riders were
    not.

    The guy pedaling in a funky manner was just stretching, he wasn't doing
    it to eke out a .00012% gain of efficiency.

    Greg

    --
    "All my time I spent in heaven
    Revelries of dance and wine
    Waking to the sound of laughter
    Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

  12. Tim McNamara wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Muscles, in fact, are very simple in their primary function: they only
    do two things (contraction and relaxation). The neurological processes
    are basically bundles of simple processes with a nested organizational
    structure which are governed by perception and intention.

    What I'm hearing is a claim that since each constituent part is simple, the
    total system must be simple.

    There are major scientific sub-disciplines based on the assumption that that
    claim is false.

    There are some scientists who study bicycling. Some of them have been
    carefully studying the interactions among the simple constituent parts --
    both in computer simulations and with human riders -- and coming up with
    some non-intuitive results.

    Quoted message said:

    Some useful references here:
    http://education.umn.edu/kin/research/hfrl/Students/ecological_systems.ht
    ml
    http://education.umn.edu/kin/research/hfrl/Students/ecological_action.htm
    l

    Those references do not even mention bicycling.

    Quoted message said:

    The field of study you are looking for is kinesiology.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesiology

    Again, lots of focus on the constituent parts, not on how those parts
    interact dynamically under the specific constraints and with the specific
    goals of bicycling.

    What would be wrong with actually looking at scientific research actually
    focused on bicycling?

    Ken

  13. Tom wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Ken Roberts said:

    (A) pull up on handlebar with arm

    Quoted message said:

    When standing and pedaling hard, such as when sprinting uphill,
    a common technique is to pull up on the handlebar on the same
    side as your leg is pushing down.

    Yes that's what I mean for (A1) -- pulling on the handlebar to stabilize the
    upper body. I think I understand the physics of why that can be an effective
    move, especially for high-force pedaling. So A1 isn't really a "move" by the
    muscles, but rather the static "isometric" prevention of movement. (I'm
    thinking this stabilizing of the upper body changes the _timing_ of when the
    work from the big leg-extension muscles gets transmitted to pedals:
    immediate versus delayed, and that immediate turns out to be more efficient
    mechanically.)

    For me (A2) is the move that's interesting (and questionable): successfully
    using the arms (and perhaps other upper body muscles) to drive the pelvis
    downward like a centimeter. Is it believed that some riders do that? even
    some pro racers?

    My suspicion is that this move (perhaps also move B?) gets into a "range of
    motion conflict" with the big leg-extension muscles -- so that adding one
    centimeter of effective pushing distance with the arms and upper body
    results in subtracting one centimeter of range of motion from the
    hip-extension and knee-extension muscles. But pedaling standing offers lots
    of freedom, so maybe there's some clever way around this conflict?

    What's interesting for me about moves C + D is that the "aiming" of their
    push force (sort of sideways) is in a very different direction from the main
    down-push, so perhaps those moves can avoid the "range of motion conflict"
    problem.

    Ken

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