Different bikes, different speeds?

Edward Hibbert said:

Advice please.

I have a hybrid, which is knocking on a bit and I'm thinking of getting
another bike fairly soon. Might get a mountain bike, because I could do with
front suspension (as an aside, so far as I can tell rear suspension is a bit
of a gimmick and not worth it - correct?). But I'm wondering what effect
different types of bike (mountain, hybrid, road) have on the speed at which
you can cycle on a road. I don't want to end up with a new bike which makes
me go noticeably slower on prolonged road rides - at the moment I do about
11mph on average.

Presumably the tyres matter, but I believe I could get some road wheels to
fit on a mountain bike frame? If I did this, do folk think I would notice
the difference on longer rides?

Three things matter for speed:
1. How well you can get your power to the road.
2. How much resistance the bike has to rolling along
3. How much air resistance there is.

1. can be enhanced or hindered by suspension. In the worst case the
suspension (and a cheap flexy bike) will soak up your efforts before
they reach the road, so for road cycling suspension is a bit of a
no-no. Off road the suspension can help smooth out bumps and skips and
help getting your efforts into forward traction.

2. This depends primarily on the tyres. Knobbly tyres have a
significant drag compared to smooth tyres. There is an optimum pressure
for each type of tyre on each type of surface. Basically on road if you
can push it in then it isn't hard enough. I find a 5km/h difference
between slick tyres and knobblies. If there are uphills then the
heavier the bike, the slower it will go up hills.

3. Air resistance depends primarily on your position on the bike. It
makes a slight difference at slow speeds but scales with the power of
the effective wind speed. A sat up position will be slower than the
crouched racing position.

So there you are. Find a bike that is comfortable and does what you
want.
...d

Edward Hibbert said:

Advice please.

I have a hybrid, which is knocking on a bit and I'm thinking of
getting another bike fairly soon. Might get a mountain bike, because
I could do with front suspension (as an aside, so far as I can tell
rear suspension is a bit of a gimmick and not worth it - correct?).

Apparently so, unless spending megaquids.

Quoted message said:

But I'm wondering what effect different types of bike (mountain,
hybrid, road) have on the speed at which you can cycle on a road. I
don't want to end up with a new bike which makes me go noticeably
slower on prolonged road rides - at the moment I do about 11mph on
average.

You won't be noticeably slower on a roadified mountain bike than on your
hybrid, but you would be faster on a road race bike.

Quoted message said:

Presumably the tyres matter, but I believe I could get some road
wheels to fit on a mountain bike frame?

No need for another set of wheels (unless to save swapping tyres
frequently) because there are road tyres for mountain bike wheels. Modern
MTB rims tend to be narrow enough to take narrower tyres than the fat
knobbly ones the bike comes with.

Quoted message said:

If I did this, do folk think
I would notice the difference on longer rides?

Yes, road tyres would be well worth getting.

~PB

In article <[email hidden]>

Edward Hibbert said:

Advice please.

I have a hybrid, which is knocking on a bit and I'm thinking of getting
another bike fairly soon. Might get a mountain bike, because I could do with
front suspension

You can fit front suspension to just about any bike, including road
racers. There's a weight penalty, and possibly an efficiency penalty in
doing so.

Quoted message said:

(as an aside, so far as I can tell rear suspension is a bit
of a gimmick and not worth it - correct?).

Depends how it's done - Moultons use it to good effect on the road.

Quoted message said:

But I'm wondering what effect
different types of bike (mountain, hybrid, road) have on the speed at which
you can cycle on a road. I don't want to end up with a new bike which makes
me go noticeably slower on prolonged road rides - at the moment I do about
11mph on average.

Hard skinny tyres with minimal tread are faster than soft fat tyres with
knobbly tread. You can fit faster tyres to just about any bike, unless
it has an obscure rim size or it's a racer that already has 19mm slicks
pumped up to 120PSI. Faster tyres generally give a harder ride.

If you cycle up hills, or stop-start a lot, then lighter is probably
significantly faster. Road bikes are generally lighter than hybrids or
ATBs at the same price point.

A bike with better aerodynamics has a significant advantage at speed or
into a headwind. To gain aerodynamic advantage you can fit aero bar
extensions to a hybrid/ATB, you can get a bike with dropped handlebars
or you can get a recumbent. Aero extensions aren't much good in
traffic, recumbents are at a bit of a disadvantage going up hills.

Quoted message said:

Presumably the tyres matter, but I believe I could get some road wheels to
fit on a mountain bike frame?

It depends what you mean by road wheels. ATBs generally use 26" wheels,
which are available in a range of rim widths with tyres to suit.
Traditional hybrids and road bikes generally use 700c wheels, which have
a larger diameter, so you can fit tyres intended for road bikes to many
hybrids. The two diameters aren't easily interchangeable.

in message <[email hidden]>, Edward Hibbert

(') said:

Advice please.

I have a hybrid, which is knocking on a bit and I'm thinking of getting
another bike fairly soon. Might get a mountain bike, because I could do
with front suspension (as an aside, so far as I can tell rear
suspension is a bit
of a gimmick and not worth it - correct?).

Rear suspension is /extremely/ well worth it - for particular
applications. These applications do not in general include riding on the
road. But it's also extremely expensive and cannot realistically be done
on a bike costing much less than a thousand pounds.

Quoted message said:

But I'm wondering what
effect different types of bike (mountain, hybrid, road) have on the
speed at which
you can cycle on a road. I don't want to end up with a new bike which
makes me go noticeably slower on prolonged road rides - at the moment I
do about 11mph on average.

Presumably the tyres matter, but I believe I could get some road wheels
to
fit on a mountain bike frame? If I did this, do folk think I would
notice the difference on longer rides?

You would certainly notice the difference. But you would notice pretty
much the same difference if you fitted narrow high pressure slick tyres
to your existing wheels. They'd drastically cut the rolling resistance,
and thus significantly improve the average speed you could achieve on
your bike. They wouldn't make any difference to a mountain bike's
aerodynamic deficit, though; a road bike would still be faster for the
same effort, or less effort for the same speed.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
; gif ye hes forget our auld plane Scottis quhilk your mother lerit you,
; in tymes cuming I sall wryte to you my mind in Latin, for I am nocht
; acquyntit with your Southeron
;; Letter frae Ninian Winyet tae John Knox datit 27t October 1563

On 18/06/2006 12:12, Edward Hibbert said,

Quoted message said:

I have a hybrid, which is knocking on a bit and I'm thinking of getting
another bike fairly soon. Might get a mountain bike, because I could do with
front suspension (as an aside, so far as I can tell rear suspension is a bit
of a gimmick and not worth it - correct?).

Rear suspension isn't a gimmick if you pay serious money, and do a lot
of off-road fast down-hilling. Both front and rear should have the
ability to be locked out. On my MTB, I only have front suspension, and
on roads I have it set to shortest travel and locked. Front suspension
is well worth having! When I say "locked", that doesn't mean absolutely
rigid, but just very firm.

If you intend doing mainly road riding, then personally I wouldn't
bother with rear suspension at all.

One bit of advice though - if you do get a front-sus MTB, avoid RST
forks like the plague. They are worse than rigid forks, in my opinion!
Mine were supposed to be 100mm travel. I weigh near enough 14 stone,
and if I bounced hard with all my weight over the bars, I could get
maybe 30mm travel. Hard and soft settings made virtually no difference
- they stayed rock hard. I now have Rockshox Tora 318 fitted - still
"budget", but infinitely better.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Quoted message said:

Presumably the tyres matter, but I believe I could get some road wheels to
fit on a mountain bike frame? If I did this, do folk think I would notice
the difference on longer rides?

You would certainly notice the difference if you fitted some slicks instead
of knobblies.

This weekend I went out on my mountain bike for some on and off road riding
and found the amount of effort needed to pedal to be noticeably greater than
that required by my road, touring and road tyred hybrid bikes. Didn't stop
me from reaching 40 mph though .... :-)

As for the suspension, it all depends on the type of riding that you do.
I've found that the front suspension comes into its own on very rough
terrain traversed at speed. Again this weekend I rode over a bridle path
that is rough and potholes with a smattering of rocks at a speed far
greater that I did when I rode over it on a Dawes Galaxy touring bike and
full camping gear. I wouldn't risk rear suspension at my weight :-)

Think very carefully about the type of riding that you are likely to do and
pick a bike best suited to your type of rides.

FWIW,

In rank order of increasing average speed my bikes are as follows:

Trek 4500 MTB with knobblies
Ridgeback Adventurer rigid hybrid with semi slick tyres
Dawes Galaxy tourer with slicks
Raleigh R100 road bike with slicks

The pecking order changes with the terrain. Very hilly road rides would see
the Raleigh drop to third place - purely because of the high gearing it has.
Off road riding would see a total reversal of the positions within the list
with possibly the Trek being in first place for fast bumpy downhill riding.

In short there isn't a simple answer to your question - everything depends
on you, the terrain that you want to cycle on and the degree of versatility
that you want from the bike.

Thanks for the various bits of advice. I was thinking of getting spare
wheels because I'm too idle to want to keep taking the different tyres on
and off - I'd rather just swap the wheels over.

I'm toying with
http://www.edinburgh-bicycle.co.uk/catalogue/detail.cfm?ID=22018. Mostly
because another guy at work has just bought one, and therefore done some
research. Plus I can give it a spin and see if I like it.

in message <[email hidden]>, Edward Hibbert

(') said:

Thanks for the various bits of advice. I was thinking of getting spare
wheels because I'm too idle to want to keep taking the different tyres
on and off - I'd rather just swap the wheels over.

I'm toying with
http://www.edinburgh-bicycle.co.uk/catalogue/detail.cfm?ID=22018.
Mostly because another guy at work has just bought one, and therefore
done some research. Plus I can give it a spin and see if I like it.

Do NOT buy that to ride on road. It is so wrong in so many ways - not
least the waste of a thouroughly good mountain bike.

But first, you're wasting money on things you don't need, and lacking
many things you do need. Disk brakes have very, very little advantage on
the road, are expensive and relatively heavy. In cost terms they add up
to about a fifth of the price of the bike.

Second, that's a reasonably good suspension fork, but it will just eat
energy if you use it on the road, unless you keep it locked out all the
time, and if you do keep it locked out all the time you've just wasted a
quarter of the price of the bike.

So on just those two features alone you've wasted almost half the money
you're proposing to spend. If you spend £400 on a rigid forked, V braked
hybrid with otherwise similar equipment, it would be at least a kilogram
lighter. So it would actually be better on the road. If you want a
Specialized, look at the Sirrus range, or, if you like a bit of rough,
the Tricross. Or, if you want to use the thing for regular commuting,
the Crossroads HU8 (and then fit mudguards, lighting and a rack).

Obviously, lots of other manufacturers produce good bikes in all these
categories...

Don't get me wrong - if you want to ride Glentress or Coed y Brennin at
all regularly the Rockhopper is a good bike to buy. But for city streets
it is not.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
.::;===r==\
/ /___||___\____
//==\- ||- | /__\( MS Windows IS an operating environment.
//____\__||___|_// \|: C++ IS an object oriented programming language.
\__/ ~~~~~~~~~ \__/ Citroen 2cv6 IS a four door family saloon.

Edward Hibbert said the following on 18/06/2006 20:54:

Quoted message said:

I'm toying with
http://www.edinburgh-bicycle.co.uk/catalogue/detail.cfm?ID=22018. Mostly
because another guy at work has just bought one, and therefore done some
research. Plus I can give it a spin and see if I like it.

Good choice. I bought a Specialized MTB from
http://www.devercycles.co.uk/ - excellent service and free delivery by
Citylink. (Edinburgh Bicycle is also free shipping)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

In article <[email hidden]>

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Edward Hibbert

(') said:

Thanks for the various bits of advice. I was thinking of getting spare
wheels because I'm too idle to want to keep taking the different tyres
on and off - I'd rather just swap the wheels over.

I'm toying with
http://www.edinburgh-bicycle.co.uk/catalogue/detail.cfm?ID=22018.
Mostly because another guy at work has just bought one, and therefore
done some research. Plus I can give it a spin and see if I like it.

Do NOT buy that to ride on road. It is so wrong in so many ways - not
least the waste of a thouroughly good mountain bike.

I sounds as if maybe he does want it for off-road use, although he
didn't mention it in the original post - otherwise why would he want two
sets of wheels?

Simon Brooke said the following on 19/06/2006 09:31:

Quoted message said:

Do NOT buy that to ride on road. It is so wrong in so many ways - not
least the waste of a thouroughly good mountain bike.

When I said it was a good choice in my earlier post, I must admit that I
meant that in the off-road context. I would definitely agree that if
it's main use is on road, then that is such a waste!

Quoted message said:

Don't get me wrong - if you want to ride Glentress or Coed y Brennin at
all regularly the Rockhopper is a good bike to buy. But for city streets
it is not.

Glentross is a bit out of my way, but Coed-y-Brenin is not a million
miles from my regular N.Wales holiday, and this year I get to take my
new mountain bike!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

in message <[email hidden]>, Rob Morley

(') said:

In article <[email hidden]>

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Edward Hibbert

(') said:

Thanks for the various bits of advice. I was thinking of getting
spare wheels because I'm too idle to want to keep taking the
different tyres on and off - I'd rather just swap the wheels over.

I'm toying with
http://www.edinburgh-bicycle.co.uk/catalogue/detail.cfm?ID=22018.
Mostly because another guy at work has just bought one, and
therefore done some research. Plus I can give it a spin and see if I
like it.

Do NOT buy that to ride on road. It is so wrong in so many ways - not
least the waste of a thouroughly good mountain bike.

I sounds as if maybe he does want it for off-road use, although he
didn't mention it in the original post - otherwise why would he want
two sets of wheels?

He said:

] But I'm wondering what effect
] different types of bike (mountain, hybrid, road) have on the speed at
] which you can cycle on a road. I don't want to end up with a new bike
] which makes me go noticeably slower on prolonged road rides - at the
] moment I do about 11mph on average.

He didn't say he wanted to ride off road at all, and even if he does,
very little of the sort of off-road riding most people do is severe
enough for the Rockhopper to be a win. If he is just riding on the road,
then, even if he changes to slick tyres and locks out the suspension,
he'll still have a significant aero deficit resulting from the
relatively upright position and the very wide bars. So it would make him
'noticeably slower on prolonged road rides'.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Let's have a moment of silence for all those Americans who are stuck
;; in traffic on their way to the gym to ride the stationary bicycle.
;; Rep. Earl Blumenauer (Dem, OR)

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Rob Morley

(') said:

In article <[email hidden]>

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Edward Hibbert
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

> Thanks for the various bits of advice. I was thinking of getting
> spare wheels because I'm too idle to want to keep taking the
> different tyres on and off - I'd rather just swap the wheels over.
>
> I'm toying with
> http://www.edinburgh-bicycle.co.uk/catalogue/detail.cfm?ID=22018.
> Mostly because another guy at work has just bought one, and
> therefore done some research. Plus I can give it a spin and see if I
> like it.

Do NOT buy that to ride on road. It is so wrong in so many ways - not
least the waste of a thouroughly good mountain bike.

I sounds as if maybe he does want it for off-road use, although he
didn't mention it in the original post - otherwise why would he want
two sets of wheels?

He said:

] But I'm wondering what effect
] different types of bike (mountain, hybrid, road) have on the speed at
] which you can cycle on a road. I don't want to end up with a new bike
] which makes me go noticeably slower on prolonged road rides - at the
] moment I do about 11mph on average.

He didn't say he wanted to ride off road at all, and even if he does,
very little of the sort of off-road riding most people do is severe
enough for the Rockhopper to be a win. If he is just riding on the road,
then, even if he changes to slick tyres and locks out the suspension,
he'll still have a significant aero deficit resulting from the
relatively upright position and the very wide bars. So it would make him
'noticeably slower on prolonged road rides'.

And unless you are riding on wet grass, wet earth (mud, particularly
clay), or sand, road tyres can provide as much grip as you need for all
but extreme off road.

The roadified MTB is noticeably slower on road than the road bike, but
whether that is due to the position or the extra 4kg difference (in a
hilly area) is debateable. It can still pootle along at a respectable
speed if the engine is up to it.

However, it is more important to get something that is comfortable to
ride. a 2mph difference on road is worth extra comfort for a tourist,
if that is what it takes.

...d

In article <[email hidden]>
Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

He didn't say he wanted to ride off road at all, and even if he does,
very little of the sort of off-road riding most people do is severe
enough for the Rockhopper to be a win.

Agreed

Quoted message said:

If he is just riding on the road,
then, even if he changes to slick tyres and locks out the suspension,
he'll still have a significant aero deficit resulting from the
relatively upright position and the very wide bars. So it would make him
'noticeably slower on prolonged road rides'.

He did say that his current bike is a hybrid, and the aerodynamics
wouldn't be hugely different for a Rockhopper.
I think the confusion arises from the way the OP was phrased - perhaps
it makes more sense if the "I'm thinking of buying a mountain bike" and
"I want front suspension" bits are considered altogether separately from
the "what makes one sort of bike faster than another on the road?" bit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I sounds as if maybe he does want it for off-road use, although he
didn't mention it in the original post - otherwise why would he want
two sets of wheels?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I haven't done much off-road so far but I'm thinking
of doing increasing it, because it would allow me to vary my routes round
Edinburgh.

So I would like a bike that's suitable for serious off-road stuff in case it
turns out I like it.

in message <[email hidden]>, Edward Hibbert

(') said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I sounds as if maybe he does want it for off-road use, although he
didn't mention it in the original post - otherwise why would he want
two sets of wheels?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I haven't done much off-road so far but I'm
thinking of doing increasing it, because it would allow me to vary my
routes round Edinburgh.

If you're in Edinburgh, go down to Glentress and hire something
moderately serious for a day. Have a shot at the red route, but don't be
afraid to walk sections that look too hard for you. Mountain biking is
really good fun, in my opinion, and in southern Scotland we have some of
the best purpose built mountain bike tracks in the world, as well as
thousands of kilometers of natural paths and tracks to explore legally.
So don't let me put you off serious off-road stuff - on the contrary, I'd
really recommend you to try it.

But, at the same time, don't assume that the same bike is going to be
satisfactory on the Glentress Red Route and on the streets of Edinburgh,
because it's not. You wouldn't run a marathon in mountain boots. You
would probably be better off working out what your budget is, taking
£280 off it for an EBC Courier Race
http://www.edinburgh-bicycle.co.uk/catalogue/detail.cfm?ID=22639
to use on the road, and spending the rest on as good a mountain bike as
you can get - possibly (good) second hand or last years' model.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.

Quoted message said:

If you're in Edinburgh, go down to Glentress and hire something
moderately serious for a day. Have a shot at the red route, but don't be
afraid to walk sections that look too hard for you. Mountain biking is
really good fun, in my opinion, and in southern Scotland we have some of
the best purpose built mountain bike tracks in the world, as well as
thousands of kilometers of natural paths and tracks to explore legally.
So don't let me put you off serious off-road stuff - on the contrary, I'd
really recommend you to try it.

I've done some stuff at Glentress and enjoyed it. Red, I think. Also a bit
of stuff in the Pentlands.

Quoted message said:

But, at the same time, don't assume that the same bike is going to be
satisfactory on the Glentress Red Route and on the streets of Edinburgh,
because it's not. You wouldn't run a marathon in mountain boots. You
would probably be better off working out what your budget is, taking
£280 off it for an EBC Courier Race
http://www.edinburgh-bicycle.co.uk/catalogue/detail.cfm?ID=22639
to use on the road, and spending the rest on as good a mountain bike as
you can get - possibly (good) second hand or last years' model.

This is sound advice. It's a little complicated for me because there's a
bike-to-work scheme which means my firm would kind of help pay for a new
bike if I use it to commute to work, something I can't do if I get two. You
weren't to know that, of course.

My commute also takes me along a lot of cobbles, and I find my wrists are
suffering despite gel mitts. I imagine some of that is down to posture, but
I'm still tempted to get a model with front suspension to see if that helps.

Maybe what I really need is just a new hybrid with front suspension, but
costing a bit more than you might expect because of the bike-to-work scheme.

in message <[email hidden]>, Edward Hibbert

(') said:

Quoted message said:

But, at the same time, don't assume that the same bike is going to be
satisfactory on the Glentress Red Route and on the streets of
Edinburgh, because it's not. You wouldn't run a marathon in mountain
boots. You would probably be better off working out what your budget
is, taking £280 off it for an EBC Courier Race
http://www.edinburgh-bicycle.co.uk/catalogue/detail.cfm?ID=22639
to use on the road, and spending the rest on as good a mountain bike
as you can get - possibly (good) second hand or last years' model.

This is sound advice. It's a little complicated for me because there's
a bike-to-work scheme which means my firm would kind of help pay for a
new
bike if I use it to commute to work, something I can't do if I get two.
You weren't to know that, of course.

My commute also takes me along a lot of cobbles, and I find my wrists
are
suffering despite gel mitts. I imagine some of that is down to
posture, but I'm still tempted to get a model with front suspension to
see if that helps.

OK, let's reverse my advice: /do/ get the Rockhopper (but try a Giant
Trance 3, which is about the cheapest decent full suspension bike,
first).

Reasons:

If your firm is paying half the price, then it's worth using the money to
get an expensive bike. A good mountain bike is a lot more expensive than
an equivalent quality road bike. So it would not make sense to get half
the price towards a road bike or hybrid and then have to pay the full
price of the mountain bike.

And in the Edinburgh area there are plenty of places where you can put a
good mountain bike to excellent use.

It does mean that you'll need to use the bike you spend your employer's
money on to cycle to work, and a good mountain bike will be compromised
on the road. But the Rockhopper, at least, comes with good forks with
good lockout, and you can keep a spare pair of cheap wheels with narrow
slick tyres on for urban use, so you can reduce that compromise to the
minimum.

The only thing to watch is that many mountain bikes with the suspension
locked have it locked at the top of its travel, and given that mountain
bike bottom brackets are usually fairly high anyway that tends to mean
it can be quite hard to get a foot down!

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig intentionally left blank ]

Edward Hibbert said:

My commute also takes me along a lot of cobbles, and I find my wrists are
suffering despite gel mitts. I imagine some of that is down to posture, but
I'm still tempted to get a model with front suspension to see if that helps.

Yes it will. You have two options really. One is to ride fat tyres and
the other is to have front suspension and ride it well. I have a couple
of cobbled sections on my commute if I go via the allotment and don't
enjoy them on what otherwise is a nicely dialed in bike for city
riding. It is all in the wrists, unlike a proper off road ride which
tends to try to separate humerus from clavicle. Just holding th ebars
loosely is a partial cure but good front suss would take most of the
pain away.
A touch of front suss will also allow you to do moderate off road at
some point.

Quoted message said:

Maybe what I really need is just a new hybrid with front suspension, but
costing a bit more than you might expect because of the bike-to-work scheme.

Maybe an MTB with two sets of wheels... one for work and one for fun.
Given the choice, I'd probably go back to front suspension for my
MTB/commuter (current forks are rusted solid), though a better solution
would be plan A which is to turn my sit up and beg into a hub geared
city bike and get a real playbike.. I now have almost all the parts- I
just need a source of 273mm spokes) I'd ensure they have lockout and
possibly consider a suspension seatpost but that is less important.

...d