Differences in numbers from Garmin to WKO



So today I did another ride after doing the firmware update and zeroing the auto pause. This was a much shorter ride with only one quick stop at a traffic light but the differences between WKO and Garmin were minimal.
In retrospect, I wish I had only made one change at a time but it's done now. Unfortunately, I didn't get the 50 watt increase in power either /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif.
Thanks for the input guys!
 
Originally Posted by maxroadrash .

So today I did another ride after doing the firmware update and zeroing the auto pause. This was a much shorter ride with only one quick stop at a traffic light but the differences between WKO and Garmin were minimal.
In retrospect, I wish I had only made one change at a time but it's done now. Unfortunately, I didn't get the 50 watt increase in power either /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif.
Thanks for the input guys!
Click to expand...
Sounds like the previous firmware was not calculating NP correctly.
what version were you running?
 
Originally Posted by Alex Simmons .


Sounds like the previous firmware was not calculating NP correctly.
what version were you running?
Click to expand...
I'm actually not sure. I bought the unit last year about this time and I don't remember ever doing update. Seems strange that I wouldn't have noticed the problem till now though. This weekend I'll have some time and I'm going to go back and have a look at old files to see if that tells me anything. I should note also that while all the other numbers are virtually the same on today's ride, there is still a difference in the IF with the Garmin reporting .801 and WKO at .786. Not enough to bother me but I don't really understand why there should be ANY difference.
 
Originally Posted by maxroadrash .


I'm actually not sure. I bought the unit last year about this time and I don't remember ever doing update. Seems strange that I wouldn't have noticed the problem till now though. This weekend I'll have some time and I'm going to go back and have a look at old files to see if that tells me anything. I should note also that while all the other numbers are virtually the same on today's ride, there is still a difference in the IF with the Garmin reporting .801 and WKO at .786. Not enough to bother me but I don't really understand why there should be ANY difference.
Click to expand...
At least you are getting closer.

Both my 500 and 800 are just about on the money on the head unit compared either WKO and/or Garmin Connect. Even though I have been using these units for a number of years I always stumble around when getting a replacement unit to get all the settings correct. One of these days I am going to post on my blog the settings and display preferences for the 500 and 800. I've been through most of the firmware updates with no problems or major inconsistencies (or that I noticed). I have waited on the latest firmware update for my 800 until I see that other users are content that there are no issues. My Edge 500 is using firmware 3.0.0.0. If you use Garmin Connect it will record which firmware is used as a historical record in the bottom left corner of the ride upload.

I've seen a lot of online debates for the Edge unit settings. I'm no expert on the subject, but I set mine up as shown below and also try to follow the same practices during pre-ride setup and during the ride. Perhaps the worst thing that I do is let the unit calculate my wheel/tire size rather than do a roll out and manually add in the size.

Zero Avg - On
Data Recording - Every Second
Auto Pause - Off
Start Notice - warning Repeat at 1 minute intervals (nothing to do with inconsistency of the unit, but it sucks to go about 10 miles and realize the unit is not recording. I have also stopped turning off the timer at rest points on training rides and let the unit continue to run rather than lose out on recording data.)
FTP level ranges set up per WKO ranges
______________________

I use either a Powertap wheel on a road bike or a Quarq on a TT bike. The Quarq is a bit more sensitive to temperature change.

I Let the bike/PM sit in outside temperature while I get prepared for the ride if the bike was hauled inside the car.
Zero the unit (Calibrate)
On a training ride I manually zero the unit again after about 10 miles or when I come to an intersection in a warm up and will do it again at my turn point.

At home I compare my uploads to WKO and Garmin Connect and see if they are the same.

About 2 times a year I do weighted test on the PM's. I need to check my PT wheel again because it seems to be a bit odd the past couple of weeks after a number of training rides in rain.
 
Originally Posted by Alex Simmons .

Does changing the NZAP on/off setting for the Garmin display affect its calculation of NP?
Click to expand...
I would like to know that as well and every time there is a firmware update I am one of those trying to figure out if I need to adjust settings on the HU. I have to lean on guys like yourself that know more (a lot more) about training with a power meter and guys like DC Rainmaker that know the electronic/programming aspect in relation to functionality to training with power.

I am a bit different from the OP that I am little less concerned about what I see on the HU real time for NP than what is uploaded after the ride or training. So far I have had good experience with leaving zero averaging on through each of the firmware updates as it appears real time on the Edge at the end of a ride compared to WKO post ride upload.

I do like having those metrics on the HU and have used the real time TSS to guide my IF for my long Saturday rides so as not to go over a certain TSS. This has helped me in terms of training more consistently. If I get close to the 300 TSS mark for a Saturday long ride I usually cannot hit my goals the following day or the day after. Before the metrics were available real time I would just guess based on perception with keeping an eye on AP and staying below 75% FTP for a 5 hour ride. I still do that, but it is nice to flip the screen over now and then and take a peek at the TSS. I have also used in when invited to a group ride that turns out to be a hammerfest and when I see TSS rising too quickly I will drop off the back and do my own pace. Again in order not to mess up my following training day(s). On short intervals or rides I don't pay attention to TSS and will look at AP/NP during the intervals since there is typically no problem recovering day to day with a TSS of 100+/-.

I know we each have a different approach and goals, but I do like it that these extended metrics have been added.

If you or anyone else has thoughts on the Edge settings or best practices when using these metrics I would like to read that discussion. I have a lot to learn.
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .



I am a bit different from the OP that I am little less concerned about what I see on the HU real time for NP than what is uploaded after the ride or training. So far I have had good experience with leaving zero averaging on through each of the firmware updates as it appears real time on the Edge at the end of a ride compared to WKO post ride upload.



If you or anyone else has thoughts on the Edge settings or best practices when using these metrics I would like to read that discussion. I have a lot to learn.
Click to expand...
Actually, I'm more interested in I.F. readings off the HU while I'm riding. I figure it's a good stick to beat myself with. The rest of it can wait till I get home and d/l the data. I can read that stuff better when I don't have lactic dripping out of my ears. Getting back and seeing the I.F. being really lower than what I thought I was doing out on the road p*isses me off.
 
Originally Posted by maxroadrash .

Actually, I'm more interested in I.F. readings off the HU while I'm riding. I figure it's a good stick to beat myself with. The rest of it can wait till I get home and d/l the data. I can read that stuff better when I don't have lactic dripping out of my ears. Getting back and seeing the I.F. being really lower than what I thought I was doing out on the road p*isses me off.
Click to expand...
Since IF is simply NP expressed relative to FTP, then if NP is incorrectly calculated/displayed, so to presumably will be IF.
 
Originally Posted by Alex Simmons .

Does changing the NZAP on/off setting for the Garmin display affect its calculation of NP?
Click to expand...
At my local wednesday night TT this week there were a number of data dropouts during the race. When I was done the Garmin reported my power as 264 watts (non-zero averaging turned on). When uploaded to WKO my AP was reported as 258, NP as 260. By exporting the data to excel I confirmed that the difference in AP was due to the inclusion of zeros in the average, i.e. the Garmin did not include them and WKO did.

I don't know how to get historical NP from the Garmin 500 after a workout is done but NP cannot be less than AP so NP computed from the data without zeros would have to be >= 264, so at least 4 watts more than reported by WKO and probably more like 6 or 7.

I think turnarounds should be included in the average but not dropouts. Though turnarounds are probably neutral with respect to AP since lower-than-average power going into the turn is approximately offset by higher-than-average power coming out of it. Not the case with data dropouts.

...and maybe I need new batteries in my PT.
 
Originally Posted by BrianMacDonald .


I don't know how to get historical NP from the Garmin 500 after a workout is done but NP cannot be less than AP so NP computed from the data without zeros would have to be >= 264,
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. NP>=AP, but:
i. that assumes the NP on the Garmin display is correctly calculated
ii. AP is not "non-zero AP", so all you can say is that the NP should be >= 258W

It's the displayed NP I am seeking to validate, not the calculation of NP in software after download.

Data drops are problematic, as is the filling in of data where it shouldn't be (e.g. when you stop pedalling, does the power trace drop instantly, or is it falsely extended by a couple of seconds?) or the interpolation of data when the actual data is unknown.
 
I don't know if any of the following will add to the discussion. I can only add from my perspective based on what I see on the Garmin real time and what is uploaded later.
Here is what I see on two of this morning's ride (both at a recreational level and type of rides - one solo and then I joined in with a group)

Powertap SL+ hub and Garmin 800

I felt like they match up pretty good both for real time and the later upload to WKO+ and Garmin Connect. The links below have the Garmin data linked.

The first solo warm up lap http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2013/06/w2-bbc-12-solo.html




[SIZE= 12px]Entire workout (128 watts):[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Duration: 43:25[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Work: 333 kJ[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]TSS: 38.1 (intensity factor 0.729)[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Norm Power: 160[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]VI: 1.25[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Pw:HR: n/a[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Pa:HR: n/a[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Distance: 12.243 mi[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Elevation Gain: 257 ft[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Elevation Loss: 268 ft[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Grade: -0.0 % (-7 ft)[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Min Max Avg[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Power: 0 385 128 watts[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Cadence: 9 196 83 rpm[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Speed: 0 35.4 16.9 mph[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Pace 1:42 0:00 3:33 min/mi[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Altitude: 783 936 840 ft[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Crank Torque: 0 984 138 lb-in[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Temperature: 64.4 68 65.1 Fahrenheit[/SIZE]

The second was a group ride with varied pace, store stop and other group ride type of shenanigans. http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2013/06/w2-bbc60-group.html





[SIZE= 12px]Entire workout (111 watts):[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Duration: 3:46:46[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Work: 1470 kJ[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]TSS: 174.8 (intensity factor 0.69)[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Norm Power: 152[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]VI: 1.37[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Pw:HR: n/a[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Pa:HR: n/a[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Distance: 59.98 mi[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Elevation Gain: 1669 ft[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Elevation Loss: 1681 ft[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Grade: -0.0 % (-5 ft)[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Min Max Avg[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Power: 0 642 111 watts[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Cadence: 8 246 84 rpm[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Speed: 0 34.9 15.9 mph[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Pace 1:43 0:00 3:47 min/mi[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Altitude: 671 940 792 ft[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Crank Torque: 0 1637 118 lb-in[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 12px]Temperature: 68 93.2 77.0 Fahrenheit[/SIZE]
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

I don't know if any of the following will add to the discussion. I can only add from my perspective based on what I see on the Garmin real time and what is uploaded later.
Here is what I see on two of this morning's ride (both at a recreational level and type of rides - one solo and then I joined in with a group)

Powertap SL+ hub and Garmin 800

I felt like they match up pretty good both for real time and the later upload to WKO+ and Garmin Connect. The links below have the Garmin data linked.
Click to expand...
I guess the question is what are your Garmin settings -- recording frequency, include or exclude zeros in power, etc.?
 
My settings
Garmin 800 (firmware 2.40.0.0)


Recording Interval: 1 sec
Data Averaging: Power: Include Zeros
Auto Pause: Off
FTP and Levels setup just like what I have in WKO
On the Powertap: Auto Zero: On

Tomorrow I plan to use my TT bike that has a Quarq Cinqo. All the settings are the same as above except it does not Auto Zero. The Quarq to me seems even more stable than the Powertap hub that I have.

Nothing to do with power, but I added a Bontrager ANT+ Speed Sensor this afternoon to the TT bike and want to try it out under the heavy tree canopy rather than relying on GPS speed.
 
To the OP I hope you got the settings worked out and your real time displayed IF and NP are looking more correct.

My last bit that I wanted to get corrected was not crucial to training. I wanted to refine the displayed speed since the GPS signal is weaker in one of the places that I train. I put the Bontrager ANT+ speed sensor on the TT bike. I kind of waited until the last second to mount the sensor so I was out of time to do an official roll out wheel measurement, but noticed that a number was already in the unit. (2092 for Michelin Pro 4) So I must had done one previously rather than use the auto wheel calculation option.

It sure was nice to have the correct speed during the ride while going under areas of heavy tree canopy and some overpass tunnels. The roll out input was dead on the money. The MUP that I was using has mile markers and the unit was hitting each perfectly as I passed by them. Kind of a low watt ride, but nice to get out and test things.

Sunday equipment used: Felt B10, Quarq Cinqo S975, Garmin 800, Bontrager ANT+ Speed Sensor

[SIZE= 12px]Entire workout (142 watts):
Duration: 2:14:32 (2:18:59)
Work: 1139 kJ
TSS: 106.8 (intensity factor 0.696)
Norm Power: 153
VI: 1.07
Pw:HR: n/a
Pa:HR: n/a
Distance: 40.545 mi
Elevation Gain: 608 ft
Elevation Loss: 566 ft
Grade: 0.0 % (49 ft)
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 451 142 watts
Cadence: 5 103 74 rpm
Speed: 0 25.2 18.2 mph
Pace 2:23 0:00 3:18 min/mi
Altitude: 920 1119 1028 ft
Crank Torque: 0 1708 168 lb-in
Temperature: 77 96.8 80.6 Fahrenheit[/SIZE]






[SIZE= 12px][/SIZE]
 
Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

To the OP I hope you got the settings worked out and your real time displayed IF and NP are looking more correct.
Click to expand...
Felt-
Yes, thanks for asking. I think I've got it all sorted now. A bit crunched for time at the moment but I hope to post it all with the color glossy photos and data tomorrow.
Best,
Max
 
OK lets see if I can finally get this posted. The first ride is from 7/2 and here are 2 shots of the Garmin HU:




WKO said this:
Avg. Watts=126
NP=149
TSS=103.9
IF.799
To my way of thinking that's not too bad.
So here's a ride from 7/4:





You can see the only change I've made is to non-zero avg.
Here's what WKO said:
Avg. Watts=143
NP=160
TSS=135.4
IF=.859

Seems like the IF is a lot closer and that's the only real difference.
As I said before, unfortunately, I upgraded the firmware on the HU after I noticed the original problem. I wish, for comparison's sake I hadn't but it's a done deal.
This new firmware is version 3.20.0.0 I found the old one and I was running 3.0.0.0 (Alex I think you asked that).
I'm gonna take a WAG and say that the new firmware addressed the problem.
 
I don't understand why people feel the need to set a speed for the autopause. I have mine set at "when stopped" and with a wheel magnet installed, it never pauses unless I am stopped. I regularly climb a 16% average hill (up to 22%, takes me 26min) and all I can hear are the garmins around me pausing and starting again. Mine never does unless blow me down, I am actually stopped.
 
max, it looks like you are getting closer and at least close enough for real time display - IMO.

Curious as to why you excluded zeros on the latest settings? Not a biggie, but I wanted to see if you read something recently that I may have missed. Was it due to the latest firmware?

For now I am going to continue to include zeros since my real time displays hits very close with my uploads.
 
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