Cycling Training · Public discussion

Did my first official USCF 40K-TT. :)

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Cycling Training
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15 August 2005
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17 August 2005
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stormer94
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  1. Short story:
    As a new guy, I entered the mens category 5 class. Somewhere along the line, I thought a 40k is 24 miles, WRONG, it's 24.8miles. That's a big difference when you had thought it was 24, and did all your caclulations with the other numbers... "I'm going the right speeds, I'm where I should be, why am I three minutes down on time??? Any way, long story short. This old dude (me) on a first try knocked out a 1:05:58 time, averaged 22.55mph and a 2:39 pace. Most happy with the result. There is heart rate, pacing and MPH information on the image at the bottom, including a course profile.


    Rest of the story:

    What a fiasco of a weekend. Did about $5500 damage to my Yukon (hit a deer) on the way down. Got to Bozeman and some crazy concert was going on and no hotel rooms for 250 miles. Even the hotel people said they hadn't seen anything like it in a while... swell... We nearly had to sleep in the Yukon. 2 hours of phone calls later, we found a hotel that had a room (2 guys on cell phones simultaneously demon-dialing all the numbers in the phone book until we got a hit.) Can't wait to get my roaming bill. We killed 2 hours I had hoped to be sleeping by calling just about 70 hotels.

    I get up tired, disgusted (wrecked my car), and head to the race. I had left one detail on the bike until we got there, busy work, to give me something to do. I had "assumed" the reason my cateye double wireless computer had died, was that the batterys were dead... NOPE, turns out, it's just DEAD... Found that out 45 minutes before I start... So now I only have my polar HRM. The onboard bike computer that I was going to use for cadence, Speed, distance and splits was not going to happen. Mind you, all my riding and pacing on the bike were done with both computers... Last minute I decide to run just my polar in speed, HR, and cadence. No mileage, no split times, no idea where I was on the course (well, so to speak, it was marked every 10K, and last k). That makes it a lot tougher for somebody as anal as me to keep track of what the heck I'm doing. Just then, I realize we left my MAIN gear bag in the hotel. Has my water bottles in it, Warm weather gear, shoe covers, HRM STRAP!!! D'OH!!! I send my son back to the hotel, it's like 12 miles away in traffic. MERCIFULLY, he gets back with 10 minutes to spare.

    So, I'm frazzled, My car is wrecked, it's cold out 59 degrees, I have no timing, mileage or pacing equipment on the bike. I get to the start line and pull in just as they launch the guy in front of me... NOW THAT is cutting it close. I've got a million things running through my mind, none of them having to do with racing and concentrating. I get up and get ready to go... I "toughen up" and let 'er rip. Whithin about a minute, I actually started to feel better and start to concentrate. Before it was over I managed to pass 4 dudes, and got passed by 3 faster dudes. At the 40 minute mark, my gut was starting to ache, pretty hard. Like harder than I've ever had a gut ache. Right side right below the rib cage. Actually almost hurt to take a deep breath. That subsided a bit, and or I worked through it or ignored it or something.

    I was never so happy in my life as when I started to recognize scenery similar to the finish line... HR was 89% of max for the first half of the race, 90.3% of maxx on the way back. I kicked it hard for the last 2 miles. Last mile averaged 92.9% of MHR. Result: 1:05:58 time, averaged 22.55mph and a 2:39 pace.

    The good news is that I had estimated pretty close. Here is what I wrote in another post a week ago:

    Quoted post said:

    I'd like to come in under 66 minutes (2:45 pace, or 21.81mph), and the closer to 63 (2:37 pace, or 22.92mph), the happier I will be about it. I'm confident I could do the 2:37 pace at 2100 feet. I'm more concerned about what will happen to my pace and HR at 4400 feet.

    What's neat about that, is I did all that original estimating of a 40k at 24 miles not 24.8 miles (duh). So I actually I would have run a 63:49 if it were 24 miles. So I hit my estimates, almost EXACTLY on the mark, and without times to look at on the course. I had no idea what my time was until I saw it on the sheet in the timers area.

    Here's what's funny. Huge turnout THIS year. Last year, mens 4/5 had a grand total of 3 riders between the classes. I think this year cat 5 had 13, of which I finished 8th. Cat 4 had 4-5 riders and I would have placed 3rd in cat 4. Some sandbagging goin' on... 😄 The cat 4 guys can't keep up... lol...

    I finished about 11 minutes behind the overall fastest rider for the event, and I'm pretty happy with that! 🙂

    I was looking at some pictures, My position doesn't look fast. I'll see if I can get a picture.

    Thanks for all the help (cycling forums community), especially Rappdaddyo for making the course profile and offering ideas and help.

    -B

  2. bike position picks:

    Smashed Yukon, happened on the way down... 🙁

    Serious Dinner at Johnny Carino's, a sweet Italian place. (as a coldhearted bastage, I included pictures of my HUGE lasagna, pasta, alfredo plate, and my Cannoli's) we ate after the race. Had to be over 4000 calories. I'm still sick... 😄

  3. images part 2:

  4. Congrats on the result. Sorry to hear about the deer and the motel problems, but, really, it only adds to the drama of the event!

    Now you have a solid time to best next year. Best of luck.

  5. Stormer94;

    Your bike position looks very good. I did a 40 k 3 weeks ago in 1:06, but
    I must say I'm jealous of what you rode; appears to be an aero frame trek, integrated aerobar headset, and deep rim front wheel and disc zipp rear + your aero helmet.

    Here's a picture of me during my 40 k TT at this link:

    http://www.millriver.fi/download/ccpicaro/images/DSC_3979.jpg

  6. for these 40k time trials, what is the terrain like? are you guys mostly rolling along on flat ground for 25 miles, or are there rolling hills or are there a few actual climbs? just trying to get an idea of the layout of these types of races....thanks

  7. bikeguy said:

    Stormer94;

    Your bike position looks very good. I did a 40 k 3 weeks ago in 1:06, but
    I must say I'm jealous of what you rode; appears to be an aero frame trek, integrated aerobar headset, and deep rim front wheel and disc zipp rear + your aero helmet.

    Here's a picture of me during my 40 k TT at this link:

    http://www.millriver.fi/download/ccpicaro/images/DSC_3979.jpg

    My wife got me that bike for me for Christmas 😄 then I put the zipp 909 wheel set on it. I took the stickers off the front wheel, They weighed 12 grams! A suprising amount if you figure they have to be rotated up to speed at the outer edge of the wheel.

    See, you are one of those cheating young guys that gets by on talent and youth and superior athletetism. Us old dudes suffer by being old, but we seem to make it up by getting trick gadgetry like Batman. 😄

    Seriously though, a set of clip on aero bars would knock some serious time off your 40k. Plus, they look cool on the bike. 🙂 I bet you'd save 2-3 minutes. That's a great picture, those are important to have. Scenary looks beautiful.

  8. wnowak06 said:

    for these 40k time trials, what is the terrain like? are you guys mostly rolling along on flat ground for 25 miles, or are there rolling hills or are there a few actual climbs? just trying to get an idea of the layout of these types of races....thanks

    Although the course topography looks kind of menacing, I'd say this was about as flat as it gets around here. nothing that would require getting out of the saddle or losing more than a few mph. For us, and knowing where we live, they did a pretty good job finding this road. Little to much automobile traffic for my taste, but that's a different story.

  9. stormer94 said:

    bike position picks:

    Smashed Yukon, happened on the way down... 🙁

    Serious Dinner at Johnny Carino's, a sweet Italian place. (as a coldhearted bastage, I included pictures of my HUGE lasagna, pasta, alfredo plate, and my Cannoli's) we ate after the race. Had to be over 4000 calories. I'm still sick... 😄


    pretty tricked-out bike setup for your 1st 40k. I'm jealous ...
    Do you have a power estimate for the hour (and a bit) effort?

    rmur

  10. Stormer94, yeah you old guys have the green to afford that equipment, nobody in the time trial I rode had as sweet a setup as that machine you have there.

    The course I rode started up going uphill and continued uphill to the midpoint with the steeper hills at the midpoint. I'd say looking at the course profile that there was about 140 metres (460 ft) of climbing altogether with the finish line about 9 metres higher than the start. I saw and felt the hills up but I never felt the hill down so I must say I'm perplexed by the profile I saw, that or I killed myself going up the hills. I hit 58 km/hr going down a short steep hill at the start but never went over 46 km/hr during the rest of the downhill. My low speed was about 26 km/hr up the 3rd hill in a row in the middle.
    I came up like a rocket at the end after the final turn before the finish line and hit 47 km/hr so I definitely had something left at the end. The top time was about 54:20, set by a rider in our club. The wind was pretty much calm but a bit cool for me at 18 degrees C.

    Heres the course profile, you'll need a powerpoint viewer to see it:

    http://batman.jypoly.fi/~tuito/picaro/file/korkeuskayra.ppt

    I entered into my first RR last week and got dropped after 7 km, I made a mistake of solo accelerating and passing a big part of the bunch, then got dropped when they accelerated as a group. I also accelerated into a head wind of about 20-30 km/hr, stupid huh? I was feeling perky, and then was feeling tired although I also was slow to react to the group passing from behind. I rode on for 28 km (a little workout) and passed 4 other guys who got dropped. Then I turned back for the dressing room.

    Will do one more TT and RR before the season ends this year.

    -Bikeguy

  11. bikeguy said:

    Stormer94, yeah you old guys have the green to afford that equipment, nobody in the time trial I rode had as sweet a setup as that machine you have there.

    The course I rode started up going uphill and continued uphill to the midpoint with the steeper hills at the midpoint. I'd say looking at the course profile that there was about 140 metres (460 ft) of climbing altogether with the finish line about 9 metres higher than the start. I saw and felt the hills up but I never felt the hill down so I must say I'm perplexed by the profile I saw, that or I killed myself going up the hills. I hit 58 km/hr going down a short steep hill at the start but never went over 46 km/hr during the rest of the downhill. My low speed was about 26 km/hr up the 3rd hill in a row in the middle.
    I came up like a rocket at the end after the final turn before the finish line and hit 47 km/hr so I definitely had something left at the end. The top time was about 54:20, set by a rider in our club. The wind was pretty much calm but a bit cool for me at 18 degrees C.

    Heres the course profile, you'll need a powerpoint viewer to see it:

    http://batman.jypoly.fi/~tuito/picaro/file/korkeuskayra.ppt

    I entered into my first RR last week and got dropped after 7 km, I made a mistake of solo accelerating and passing a big part of the bunch, then got dropped when they accelerated as a group. I also accelerated into a head wind of about 20-30 km/hr, stupid huh? I was feeling perky, and then was feeling tired although I also was slow to react to the group passing from behind. I rode on for 28 km (a little workout) and passed 4 other guys who got dropped. Then I turned back for the dressing room.

    Will do one more TT and RR before the season ends this year.

    -Bikeguy

    I think being perplexed is part of the game. Once you are comfortable it's probably a lot easier to be fast. I'll bet you learned a lot in that race. 🙂

  12. bikeguy said:

    Stormer94;

    Your bike position looks very good. I did a 40 k 3 weeks ago in 1:06, but
    I must say I'm jealous of what you rode; appears to be an aero frame trek, integrated aerobar headset, and deep rim front wheel and disc zipp rear + your aero helmet.

    Here's a picture of me during my 40 k TT at this link:

    http://www.millriver.fi/download/ccpicaro/images/DSC_3979.jpg

    Ya, nice bike!

    Stormer, I am actually a little concerned about your position looking at the photos. Possibly someone more expert could chime in (Ric, Andy, Michael? We love you guys...), but I am worried about a few things. If the person who did the setup can provide a reasoned argument for why he set you up that way, I wouldn't worry too much. So take these suggestions as seriously as you want to, and please don't construe them as intentionally critical in any way other than constructive.

    1. Looking side-on, you appear too stretched out. The advice I have seen is that your upper arm and lower arm should meet at approximately right angles at the elbow joint, the upper arm should be approximately parallel with the vertical, and elbow pads should support the arm only fractionally below the elbow. This might be hard to achieve with the top tube length you have. Might be possible to improve with a shorter stem.

    2. You possibly could have a slighlty flatter back, if you can be comfortable in that position. Should be easy to bring your aero bars slightly down relative to the pursuit bar by removing a spacer or two.

    3. Your arms come in and meet rather than remaining parallel with each other. This varies with the individual, but in the absence of conflicting wind tunnel data it is my understanding that the arms should, when looked at straight on, basically line up with the legs and remain parallel rather than coming in to meet each other.

    4. It could just be me, but it seems to me your arms tilt down slightly when viewed side on. Again this is individual, but prevailing wisdom is that in the absence of wind tunnel data to the contrary, arms should be parallel with the horizontal.

    5. I don't want to say it since the bike is such a large investment, but I think the top tube length on that bike might be slightly too long for you, period, causing a number of these difficulties.

    I would basically run the shortest stem possible on that bike to bring your arms back in, and if you can achieve a good arm position, think about dropping the time trial bar slightly by removing some spacers and getting it lower relative to the pursuit bar. Also, if you bring your arms back to parallel with horizontal your elbow pads may move slightly further back, and could perhaps support your weight a little more effectively.

    The amount of spacers between TT bar and pursuit bar seems odd to me. Raising the pursuit bar on the headset and killing some of those spacers might help too.

  13. Slightly off topic...

    What Polar HRM did you use to get that graph data?

  14. Roadie_scum said:

    please don't construe them as intentionally critical in any way other than constructive.

    Roadie, I more or less asked for it, and I'm pretty sure it's off, and welcome and appreciate any thoughts (can't hurt my feelings by trying to help make me faster...).

    That said, I set the bike up... :eek: I just kept moving things around and trying to get low, narrow and comfortable. Where it's at now is trial and error and by driving by store windows and looking at my reflection. I'm actually not slouched in those photos. I think my upper body is more settled about 1/2" at the shoulders when I'm riding, and my head is lower. I can feel the difference between what I call slouching my shoulders and upper body. When I settle in, I can feel the wind on the top of the middle of my back, and the jersey flapping a bit.

    It's a medium frame, I'm 5'10", and really, it's what I should be on, compared to large or small. I feel okay on it. (I went from a 58cm road bike to a 56, and feel it was a good change, I feel better on the 56). It's possible the stretched out part could be to long a stem, or seat to far back. The aero bars are about 1" back from when I got the bike, and the stem is almost an inch down. The elbows are in about 1/2" per side from when I got it. The pictures are THEE most current shots, from this weekend, I haven't changed anything since the pictures.

    My personal thoughts on the position.
    I feel my elbows could be lower, and I'd like to maybe pull the areo bars in about another inch, so I won't be as stretched out (make more of a 90degree angle out of the forearm and upper arm). I know if I ride with my arms about 2-3" further back, it seems to open up my chest more. My knees seem to have adequate clearance and aren't beating me in the chest. I'd like to try and bring the elbows in more, but I think I'm out of adjustment. thinking of taking the seat to about 2.5 degrees of angle down at the front. Maybe by pulling my arms in, I can lower the bars and still have good leg clearance. Not sure, it's kind of a guessing game, since I don't have a wind tunnel. I think you are right on the money though.

    I know when I had a coach setup my road bike with clip-ons, that thing was fast. Took about an hour and a half of fooling around, but my upper body was low, I was confortable, my entire back looked flat. I tried to take some of those measurements over to this bike. I don't think I got it right. There is a lot of room to improve, I think.

  15. kjbetz said:

    Slightly off topic...

    What Polar HRM did you use to get that graph data?

    Polar 720i. I can't imagine using anything else, I've had 2 other models, all Polar though, but gave those away when I got the hang of the 720i. I've been thinking of just getting one as a spare, that's how much I like it... 🙂

  16. [quote="stormer94"]
    bike position pics:


    Attached Thumbnails[img]cyclingforums.comattachment.php[/img] [img]cyclingforums.comattachment.php[/img] [img]cyclingforums.comattachment.php[/img]

    If you're interested, one pretty standard method of checking your position relative to others is your saddle to elbow-pad drop. The first, 2nd and 3rd thing to worry about is getting the torso sorted out .. the rest is less important.

    What's your drop? If you don't mind the inquiry?

    rmur

  17. Wow! Great job for your first TT.

    The non-cycling specific (aviators?) sunglasses are nice touch BTW. 🙂

  18. Nice job indeed!!

  19. Look here for a lot of tech articles on setting up a TT bike:

    slowtwitch.comtechctr.html

    You look like you need a steeper seat angle (which will enable a flatter torso). If you do this (by moving the seat forward) it's possible that you won't be so reached out either, moving your upper arm to torso angle closer to 90 degrees. This might also need to be paired with a lowering of your arm rests.

  20. Congrats on a good ride.

    You have a swell bike.
    Certainly position is very important in a long TT.
    Lots of interesting comments from other posters.

    But the only way to KNOW besides visualization is 1. to do a good bike fit with someone and then go ride and train and see how it feels, how your heart rate and speed do on a known course etc or better a Power Tap or SRM.

    2. do a dynamic bike fit indoors with a pro and see how your pedalling and power vary with adjustments during the bike fit. Can be done with a Computrainer for example. If you have a bike that good it is worth the time and money.

    Examples--getting more aero is great, but certain people it restricts ventilation from the lungs and they have to get more upright (look at Basso), or blood flow through the iliac arteries decreases due to narrowing the angle between thigh and pelvis, or due to vertebral issues position cannot be maintained over 30 minutes (why Lance trashed the brand new one of a kind ITT prototype bike made as a one of for him by the F-1 Project at Trek. So lots of important issues in terms of fit.

    Fit has to be dynamic!

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