Did Matten do it with help?

Bestest Handsander said:

So, those who did see... did he use the motorcycles and cars?

Message-ID: <[email hidden]>

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Bestest Handsander said:

I read the news accounts of Ghent Wevelgem, but was unable to watch

it on

Quoted message said:

cycling.tv. So, those who did see... did he use the motorcycles and

cars?

Quoted message said:

If so, did it make a difference?

I think it's interesting that the race organizers can't admit he did

without

Quoted message said:

jeopardizing their place in the Pro Tour next year. What a

bureaucratic

Quoted message said:

mess.

They found another dodge:
From:
http://eurosport.com/home/pages/v4/l0/s18/e9385/sport_lng0_spo18_evt9385_sto705120.shtml

Flecha's team manager Giancarlo Ferretti angrily claimed Mattan only
won because he used the slipstream of two official race cars and
several motorbikes to catch Flecha.

He demanded that the judges give the win to Flecha but after
considering the case for 30 minutes they confirmed Mattan as the
winner.

"The result stands," chief race judge Roberto Ariznavaretta of Spain
said.

"We ordered the cars to get out of the way but if they don't listen us
what can we do? That's cycling."

I don't see any way you could say that Mattan did not take pace. There
is no way in hell he shouldn't have been penalized time for it. The
vehicles should never have been there in the first place, but it was
obvious that he purposely used them to advance his position maneuvering
to be able to take pace.
Bogus result IMO.
Bill C

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

<snip>

Did anyone else notice who was driving the Shimano, er, neutral support car?
And that little incident between Mattan and Mr De Baeremaecker earlier in
the race?

Jeff

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones wrote:
Did anyone else notice who was driving the Shimano, er, neutral

support car?

Quoted message said:

And that little incident between Mattan and Mr De Baeremaecker

earlier in

Quoted message said:

the race?

Alright boys - I know you always feel the need to quarterback this
stuff but this is racing. If you don't think Flecha would have done
the exact same thing you're fooling yourselves. We're on race motos
like a fiending crack-ho is on a chubb.

Plus, if we're going the conspiracy route why don't we find out the
name of the moto pilot that took out Klier?
-DA74

On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:54:44 +1000, "Jeff Jones" <jeff@cyclingnews-punt-com>

Quoted message said:

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

<snip>

Did anyone else notice who was driving the Shimano, er, neutral support car?
And that little incident between Mattan and Mr De Baeremaecker earlier in
the race?

Jeff

Missed it. Elaborate?

jj

"DA74" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Plus, if we're going the conspiracy route why don't we find out the
name of the moto pilot that took out Klier?

Maybe it was Boonen's dad or something.

I'm not actually proferring a conspiracy theory here. I just think it was
funny that Mr P de B was behind the wheel. It reminded me of that doco I saw
on him a couple of years ago, recommended by ED and BVH. Classic stuff,
about a guy who believes so much in his small kermis team full of dud riders
sponsored by a washing machine company. "If you just give us another 40
million francs, we can get the big riders and I guarantee you results."
<sponsor strangely not enthused by said proposition>.

Back to the point. I think Mattan won on his merits, Flecha also profited
from the motos, and G-W should not be penalised more than a token amount.
The motos were crazier in MSR anyway.

That's enough abbreviations for one night.

Jeff

DA74 said:

Quoted message said:

Jeff Jones wrote:
Did anyone else notice who was driving the Shimano, er, neutral

support car?

Quoted message said:

And that little incident between Mattan and Mr De Baeremaecker

earlier in

Quoted message said:

the race?

Alright boys - I know you always feel the need to quarterback this
stuff but this is racing. If you don't think Flecha would have done
the exact same thing you're fooling yourselves. We're on race motos
like a fiending crack-ho is on a chubb.

Plus, if we're going the conspiracy route why don't we find out the
name of the moto pilot that took out Klier?
-DA74

If I thought you were anything that resembled a real racer I'd let you
know that if I saw you do exactly what Mattan did I'd strongly
reccommend a time penalty to the Chief Ref.
You're right riders try [censored] like this, and riders get penalized,
that's racing. If you flat in the first 10 miles of a 100 mile RR and
catch a little help to get back to the pack before anybody starts
racing the official might, or might not see it, but at a finish there
is no way in hell the officials should've let this fly since it
directly impacted the podium order.
No conspiracy just a rider taking advantage, and breaking the rules,
of a situation that shouldn't have been allowed to happen. Once he knew
the vehicles were going to be there, he at least had to stay away from
the rear of the camera bike. There was room to go up the middle and not
appear to be taking pace. The camera bike was blatant.
Bill C

Bill C said:

DA74 said:

We're on race motos like a fiending
crack-ho is on a chubb.

If I thought you were anything that resembled
real racer I'd let you know that if I saw
you do exactly what Mattan did I'd strongly
reccommend a time penalty to the Chief Ref.

I guess you think I'm something that resembles a real racer because you
just let me know.

More germane to the subject at hand, it doesn't matter what you think
because I know you are a third rate moto pilot. I've seen you in
action. Your moto bogs down on every bump or climb, you're sketchy in
the turns and descents and you give [censored] time splits.

Quoted message said:

You're right riders try [censored] like this,
and riders get penalized, that's racing.

That's what I said. Thanks for agreeing with me again. Albeit
argumentatively. Maybe you're trying to impress Jeff so maybe he'll do
a fattie-moto-diary. But that would require you to fit on your moto.

In this case you'll need to stay away from this:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/cf73015c9035b65e

Here to help,
-DA74

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read the news accounts of Ghent Wevelgem, but was unable to watch it on
cycling.tv. So, those who did see... did he use the motorcycles and cars?
If so, did it make a difference?

Further to my other post, I just watched the complete final kilometre again,
and Mattan had wound up his sprint on the right hand side of the road well
before he got near the Zotte Polle's neutral car and the race director,
which had moved to the left. Mattan did veer to the left and try to use
them, but he was going much faster than the cars at that stage. Same with
the motos.

Again, I don't think it made a difference at all, and you see it all the
time in races here anyway - it's almost unavoidable if you want to get
decent photo/TV coverage. And if you penalised Mattan, then you'd have to
penalise Flecha.

Funny thing was Fassa Bortolo's press officer sent out a statement claiming
that Flecha had been robbed because of Mattan's move. I seem to remember
that same press officer doing the same thing last year at the journo world's
(which I hasten to add don't mean anything to more than the 72 people who
started). He'd attack, get in the slipstream of two motos; I'd counter, and
get no help ;-) It was hilarious and didn't bother me at all because he was
so much stronger in the sprint anyway. It made no difference to the outcome
of the race.

Jeff

Jeff Jones said:

Classic stuff, about a guy who believes so much in his small kermis team
full of dud riders sponsored by a washing machine company. "If you just
give us another 40 million francs, we can get the big riders and I guarantee
you results."

Talk about being taken to the cleaners.

Jeff Jones said:

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read the news accounts of Ghent Wevelgem, but was unable to watch

it on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cycling.tv. So, those who did see... did he use the motorcycles

and cars?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If so, did it make a difference?

Further to my other post, I just watched the complete final kilometre

again,

Quoted message said:

and Mattan had wound up his sprint on the right hand side of the road

well

Quoted message said:

before he got near the Zotte Polle's neutral car and the race

director,

Quoted message said:

which had moved to the left. Mattan did veer to the left and try to

use

Quoted message said:

them, but he was going much faster than the cars at that stage. Same

with

Quoted message said:

the motos.

That was my point. It shouldn't matter if they gain an actual benefit
from the cheating. He obviously intended to take every advantage, legal
or not he could get.

Quoted message said:

Again, I don't think it made a difference at all, and you see it all

the

Quoted message said:

time in races here anyway - it's almost unavoidable if you want to

get

Quoted message said:

decent photo/TV coverage. And if you penalised Mattan, then you'd

have to

Quoted message said:

penalise Flecha.

I didn't think that Flecha's use of the vehicles was anywhere near as
blatant, but that's the thing about rules, different officials, or even
groups of them will have different opinions on a situation. Since at
that point in the race it was really just those two going for the win,
and both used the vehicles, at least to some extent, they may very well
have decided that no penalty was better than penalizing both.

Quoted message said:

Funny thing was Fassa Bortolo's press officer sent out a statement

claiming

Quoted message said:

that Flecha had been robbed because of Mattan's move. I seem to

remember

Quoted message said:

that same press officer doing the same thing last year at the journo

world's

Quoted message said:

(which I hasten to add don't mean anything to more than the 72 people

who

Quoted message said:

started). He'd attack, get in the slipstream of two motos; I'd

counter, and

Quoted message said:

get no help ;-) It was hilarious and didn't bother me at all because

he was

Quoted message said:

so much stronger in the sprint anyway. It made no difference to the

outcome

Quoted message said:

of the race.

Jeff

You're realistic and have your racing in perspective. I'll guarantee
you that, especially given that tape, in one of our races here that
we'd be doing at least a half hour of being [censored] at by both the
winner and his people, and then probably the guys just behind them
after they were told, by other people who really didn't see it but told
their friends etc. about it, that the leaders took pace to extend
their lead. I have no trouble seeing the usual crowd surrounding the
officials [censored] up a storm because someone cheated them, by doing
exactly the same thing they did last week. This goes especially for
Masters who've been around enough to know what's going on and P/1/2
types.
It seems that it's only cheating, and worth [censored] about when it's
not you doing it. When it's someone else you [censored] up a storm.
I'm sure if DA had been in Flecha's place he would been making the
same complaints since it smacked him right in the wallet, and he'd be
here [censored] about the bad officiating.
Bill C

Bill C said:

Jeff Jones said:

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read the news accounts of Ghent Wevelgem, but was unable to

watch

Quoted message said:

it on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cycling.tv. So, those who did see... did he use the motorcycles

and cars?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If so, did it make a difference?

Further to my other post, I just watched the complete final

kilometre

Quoted message said:

again,

Quoted message said:

and Mattan had wound up his sprint on the right hand side of the

road

Quoted message said:

well

Quoted message said:

before he got near the Zotte Polle's neutral car and the race

director,

Quoted message said:

which had moved to the left. Mattan did veer to the left and try to

use

Quoted message said:

them, but he was going much faster than the cars at that stage.

Same

Quoted message said:

with

Quoted message said:

the motos.

That was my point. It shouldn't matter if they gain an actual

benefit

Quoted message said:

from the cheating. He obviously intended to take every advantage,

legal

Quoted message said:

or not he could get.

Quoted message said:

Again, I don't think it made a difference at all, and you see it

all

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

time in races here anyway - it's almost unavoidable if you want to

get

Quoted message said:

decent photo/TV coverage. And if you penalised Mattan, then you'd

have to

Quoted message said:

penalise Flecha.

I didn't think that Flecha's use of the vehicles was anywhere near

as

Quoted message said:

blatant, but that's the thing about rules, different officials, or

even

Quoted message said:

groups of them will have different opinions on a situation. Since at
that point in the race it was really just those two going for the

win,

Quoted message said:

and both used the vehicles, at least to some extent, they may very

well

Quoted message said:

have decided that no penalty was better than penalizing both.

Quoted message said:

Funny thing was Fassa Bortolo's press officer sent out a statement

claiming

Quoted message said:

that Flecha had been robbed because of Mattan's move. I seem to

remember

Quoted message said:

that same press officer doing the same thing last year at the

journo

Quoted message said:

world's

Quoted message said:

(which I hasten to add don't mean anything to more than the 72

people

Quoted message said:

who

Quoted message said:

started). He'd attack, get in the slipstream of two motos; I'd

counter, and

Quoted message said:

get no help ;-) It was hilarious and didn't bother me at all

because

Quoted message said:

he was

Quoted message said:

so much stronger in the sprint anyway. It made no difference to the

outcome

Quoted message said:

of the race.

Jeff

You're realistic and have your racing in perspective. I'll guarantee
you that, especially given that tape, in one of our races here that
we'd be doing at least a half hour of being [censored] at by both the
winner and his people, and then probably the guys just behind them
after they were told, by other people who really didn't see it but

told

Quoted message said:

their friends etc. about it, that the leaders took pace to extend
their lead. I have no trouble seeing the usual crowd surrounding the
officials [censored] up a storm because someone cheated them, by doing
exactly the same thing they did last week. This goes especially for
Masters who've been around enough to know what's going on and P/1/2
types.
It seems that it's only cheating, and worth [censored] about when it's
not you doing it. When it's someone else you [censored] up a storm.
I'm sure if DA had been in Flecha's place he would been making the
same complaints since it smacked him right in the wallet, and he'd be
here [censored] about the bad officiating.
Bill C

"at least a half hour of being [censored] at by both the
winner and his people"
Should have been the guy in second and his bunch. The real fun
would've started if the winner had been penalized and relegated to
second.
Sorry
Bill C

Bill C said:

The real fun would've started if the winner had been penalized
and relegated to second.

Fassa Bortolo may have filed a protest, but everyone knew it wasn't
going to be honoured. Not sure if the protest was against Mattan, or the
car drivers/motards. Against Mattan would be moronic; to quote a certain
newsgroup guru: that's racing.

--
Firefox Web Browser - Rediscover the web - http://getffox.com/
Thunderbird E-mail and Newsgroups - http://gettbird.com/

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

Jeff Jones said:

"Bestest Handsander" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I read the news accounts of Ghent Wevelgem, but was unable to

watch

Quoted message said:

it on

Quoted message said:

> cycling.tv. So, those who did see... did he use the motorcycles

and cars?

Quoted message said:

> If so, did it make a difference?

Further to my other post, I just watched the complete final

kilometre

Quoted message said:

again,

Quoted message said:

and Mattan had wound up his sprint on the right hand side of the

road

Quoted message said:

well

Quoted message said:

before he got near the Zotte Polle's neutral car and the race

director,

Quoted message said:

which had moved to the left. Mattan did veer to the left and try to

use

Quoted message said:

them, but he was going much faster than the cars at that stage.

Same

Quoted message said:

with

Quoted message said:

the motos.

That was my point. It shouldn't matter if they gain an actual

benefit

Quoted message said:

from the cheating. He obviously intended to take every advantage,

legal

Quoted message said:

or not he could get.

Quoted message said:

Again, I don't think it made a difference at all, and you see it

all

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

time in races here anyway - it's almost unavoidable if you want to

get

Quoted message said:

decent photo/TV coverage. And if you penalised Mattan, then you'd

have to

Quoted message said:

penalise Flecha.

I didn't think that Flecha's use of the vehicles was anywhere near

as

Quoted message said:

blatant, but that's the thing about rules, different officials, or

even

Quoted message said:

groups of them will have different opinions on a situation. Since at
that point in the race it was really just those two going for the

win,

Quoted message said:

and both used the vehicles, at least to some extent, they may very

well

Quoted message said:

have decided that no penalty was better than penalizing both.

Quoted message said:

Funny thing was Fassa Bortolo's press officer sent out a statement

claiming

Quoted message said:

that Flecha had been robbed because of Mattan's move. I seem to

remember

Quoted message said:

that same press officer doing the same thing last year at the

journo

Quoted message said:

world's

Quoted message said:

(which I hasten to add don't mean anything to more than the 72

people

Quoted message said:

who

Quoted message said:

started). He'd attack, get in the slipstream of two motos; I'd

counter, and

Quoted message said:

get no help ;-) It was hilarious and didn't bother me at all

because

Quoted message said:

he was

Quoted message said:

so much stronger in the sprint anyway. It made no difference to the

outcome

Quoted message said:

of the race.

Jeff

You're realistic and have your racing in perspective. I'll guarantee
you that, especially given that tape, in one of our races here that
we'd be doing at least a half hour of being [censored] at by both the
winner and his people, and then probably the guys just behind them
after they were told, by other people who really didn't see it but

told

Quoted message said:

their friends etc. about it, that the leaders took pace to extend
their lead. I have no trouble seeing the usual crowd surrounding the
officials [censored] up a storm because someone cheated them, by doing
exactly the same thing they did last week. This goes especially for
Masters who've been around enough to know what's going on and P/1/2
types.
It seems that it's only cheating, and worth [censored] about when it's
not you doing it. When it's someone else you [censored] up a storm.
I'm sure if DA had been in Flecha's place he would been making the
same complaints since it smacked him right in the wallet, and he'd be
here [censored] about the bad officiating.
Bill C

"at least a half hour of being [censored] at by both the
winner and his people"
Should have been the guy in second and his bunch. The real fun
would've started if the winner had been penalized and relegated to
second.
Sorry
Bill C

\

What about the guy in 23rd place who feels he should be moved up to 22nd?

Bill C schreef:

Quoted message said:

That was my point. It shouldn't matter if they gain an actual benefit
from the cheating. He obviously intended to take every advantage, legal
or not he could get.

After a mechanic riders come back to the peloton hopping car to car. Once
in that line, they can take it easy, and draft a few seconds here or there.
Nobody minds.
But before that, there's often deliberate drafting by the team car. Almost
never, or even never, is that sanctioned.

Very often it happens a rider attacks a group and 'surprises' the flock of
motors before. Sometimes the motors will block the way through, but on wide
roads you will ALWAYS see the rider swerve maximally towards them. I have
never met anyone in Europe who'd call that "cheating".
These motors are there, and if interfering, they are by no means the
rider's responsability.
If the situation has any influence, it can be considered like a referee
deviating the ball in soccer IMO.
(I admit the role of De Baerdemaeker makes this G-W a border case. But
then he or those who let him in that car should be sanctioned.)

And there might well be juries who would have relegated Mattan here . It
would even be less moronic than the Tour jury that relegated 2 men touching
shoulders in a 2 men non-sprinters' sprint, or than some jury decisions in
cross in recent years.

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Bill C schreef:

Quoted message said:

That was my point. It shouldn't matter if they gain an actual

benefit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

from the cheating. He obviously intended to take every advantage,

legal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or not he could get.

After a mechanic riders come back to the peloton hopping car to car.

Once

Quoted message said:

in that line, they can take it easy, and draft a few seconds here or

there.

Quoted message said:

Nobody minds.
But before that, there's often deliberate drafting by the team car.

Almost

Quoted message said:

never, or even never, is that sanctioned.

Very often it happens a rider attacks a group and 'surprises' the

flock of

Quoted message said:

motors before. Sometimes the motors will block the way through, but

on wide

Quoted message said:

roads you will ALWAYS see the rider swerve maximally towards them. I

have

Quoted message said:

never met anyone in Europe who'd call that "cheating".

On the subject of the vehicles the rulebook is VERY clear for conduct
within 500 meters of the fininsh.
Read sections 2.2.054 thru 2.2.077 from the UCI rulebook.
Here's a link to it:http://www.uci.ch/english/about/rules.htm
This stuff is on page 11 of the road races section of the pdf.

Quoted message said:

These motors are there, and if interfering, they are by no means the
rider's responsability.
If the situation has any influence, it can be considered like a

referee

Quoted message said:

deviating the ball in soccer IMO.
(I admit the role of De Baerdemaeker makes this G-W a border case.

But

Quoted message said:

then he or those who let him in that car should be sanctioned.)

And there might well be juries who would have relegated Mattan here .

It

Quoted message said:

would even be less moronic than the Tour jury that relegated 2 men

touching

Quoted message said:

shoulders in a 2 men non-sprinters' sprint, or than some jury

decisions in

Quoted message said:

cross in recent years.

For the drafting: Section 19 of the discipline and procedures section
lays out the penalties for this. It's page 14 of that pdf section.
From rereading the rules it's pretty clear to me that both of the
riders should've received a warning and sanctions taken against the
vehicles which seems to be what happened.
Bill C
Thanks for making me go reread the UCI rules since I don't use them,
but the USCF rulebook is slowly getting a lot closer to them.

Bill C said:

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Bill C schreef:

Quoted message said:

That was my point. It shouldn't matter if they gain an actual

benefit

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

from the cheating. He obviously intended to take every advantage,

legal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or not he could get.

After a mechanic riders come back to the peloton hopping car to car.

Once

Quoted message said:

in that line, they can take it easy, and draft a few seconds here or

there.

Quoted message said:

Nobody minds.
But before that, there's often deliberate drafting by the team car.

Almost

Quoted message said:

never, or even never, is that sanctioned.

Very often it happens a rider attacks a group and 'surprises' the

flock of

Quoted message said:

motors before. Sometimes the motors will block the way through, but

on wide

Quoted message said:

roads you will ALWAYS see the rider swerve maximally towards them. I

have

Quoted message said:

never met anyone in Europe who'd call that "cheating".

On the subject of the vehicles the rulebook is VERY clear for conduct
within 500 meters of the fininsh.
Read sections 2.2.054 thru 2.2.077 from the UCI rulebook.
Here's a link to it:http://www.uci.ch/english/about/rules.htm
This stuff is on page 11 of the road races section of the pdf.

Quoted message said:

These motors are there, and if interfering, they are by no means the
rider's responsability.
If the situation has any influence, it can be considered like a

referee

Quoted message said:

deviating the ball in soccer IMO.
(I admit the role of De Baerdemaeker makes this G-W a border case.

But

Quoted message said:

then he or those who let him in that car should be sanctioned.)

And there might well be juries who would have relegated Mattan here .

It

Quoted message said:

would even be less moronic than the Tour jury that relegated 2 men

touching

Quoted message said:

shoulders in a 2 men non-sprinters' sprint, or than some jury

decisions in

Quoted message said:

cross in recent years.

For the drafting: Section 19 of the discipline and procedures section
lays out the penalties for this. It's page 14 of that pdf section.
From rereading the rules it's pretty clear to me that both of the
riders should've received a warning and sanctions taken against the
vehicles which seems to be what happened.
Bill C
Thanks for making me go reread the UCI rules since I don't use them,
but the USCF rulebook is slowly getting a lot closer to them.

Wrong. The riders were not given a warning. When Hincapie was DQ'ed from
Philly for candyass drafting to get back into the winning move, that was
justified.

In case you don't know it, a "warning" for drafting isn't something that
an official gives to a rider after the race. It's something an official
does when he sees it during the race. And if the rider keeps doing it,
then he faces a DQ (if it's a female rider, she faces a spanking).

Where in the last k was Mattan or Arrowhead given a warning by a zebra?

Don't you know how to apply the drafting rules?

Take care,

Magilla

MagillaGorilla said:

Bill C said:

Van Hoorebeeck Bart said:

Bill C schreef:

>
>
> That was my point. It shouldn't matter if they gain an actual

benefit

Quoted message said:

> from the cheating. He obviously intended to take every

advantage,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

legal

Quoted message said:

> or not he could get.
>

After a mechanic riders come back to the peloton hopping car to

car.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Once

Quoted message said:

in that line, they can take it easy, and draft a few seconds here

or

Quoted message said:

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there.

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Nobody minds.
But before that, there's often deliberate drafting by the team

car.

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Almost

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never, or even never, is that sanctioned.

Very often it happens a rider attacks a group and 'surprises' the

flock of

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motors before. Sometimes the motors will block the way through,

but

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on wide

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roads you will ALWAYS see the rider swerve maximally towards

them. I

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have

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never met anyone in Europe who'd call that "cheating".

On the subject of the vehicles the rulebook is VERY clear for

conduct

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within 500 meters of the fininsh.
Read sections 2.2.054 thru 2.2.077 from the UCI rulebook.
Here's a link to it:http://www.uci.ch/english/about/rules.htm
This stuff is on page 11 of the road races section of the pdf.

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These motors are there, and if interfering, they are by no means

the

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rider's responsability.
If the situation has any influence, it can be considered like a

referee

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deviating the ball in soccer IMO.
(I admit the role of De Baerdemaeker makes this G-W a border

case.

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But

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then he or those who let him in that car should be sanctioned.)

And there might well be juries who would have relegated Mattan

here .

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It

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would even be less moronic than the Tour jury that relegated 2

men

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touching

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shoulders in a 2 men non-sprinters' sprint, or than some jury

decisions in

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cross in recent years.

For the drafting: Section 19 of the discipline and procedures

section

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lays out the penalties for this. It's page 14 of that pdf section.
From rereading the rules it's pretty clear to me that both of the
riders should've received a warning and sanctions taken against the
vehicles which seems to be what happened.
Bill C
Thanks for making me go reread the UCI rules since I don't use

them,

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but the USCF rulebook is slowly getting a lot closer to them.

Wrong. The riders were not given a warning. When Hincapie was DQ'ed

from

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Philly for candyass drafting to get back into the winning move, that

was

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justified.

In case you don't know it, a "warning" for drafting isn't something

that

Quoted message said:

an official gives to a rider after the race. It's something an

official

Quoted message said:

does when he sees it during the race. And if the rider keeps doing

it,

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then he faces a DQ (if it's a female rider, she faces a spanking).

Where in the last k was Mattan or Arrowhead given a warning by a

zebra?

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Don't you know how to apply the drafting rules?

Take care,

Magilla

There was no way to give a warning where the offense occurred. My
assumption is that both riders were given a warning for GP after the
race finished and the vehicles were being penalised. You were there to
know what the officials had to say? Yes, especially being a motor I
know exactly how to apply the rule, unfortunately this was a complete
FUBAR situation at the finish with no good way to handle it. This is
one of the big reasons that USAC has really hammered handling caravans
in it's new training for motors. That's a huge chunk of the new
program, just because it can be a really complicated headache to deal
with.
Let's take a quick run through the USCF 2005 rules on this.

Sigle day race 3B5 - Taking Pace or assistance from any outside means
is forbidden, including holding on to a motor vehicle or taking pace
from riders in different race that is concurrently on the same course.
[relegation or DQ]

Stage races 4H12 Towing and drafting
(c) brief drafting off of a vehicle - Warning If I can't give it at
the time it happens I make it a point to catch the rider after the
finsh, or the next day's start and pass along a friendly reminder about
this.

(d) Prolonged drafting off of a vehicle
Rider- $35 fine and 20 second penalty. DQ in extreme cases.
Pretty simple really.

You want to make sure that the fact that there was a problem, and that
a warning was given get's into the race report, even if it does happen
right after the finish just to CYA in case of a formal protest, or
recurring violations that lead to a DQ and that will lead to a formal
protest. If it's not officially documented and signed it didn't happen
and you know that. I'd have thought with all the [censored] you've been
involved in running that CYA at all times would be a habit by now.
Bill C

Bill C said:

MagillaGorilla said:

Bill C said:

Van Hoorebeeck Bart wrote:
> Bill C schreef:
>
> >
> >
> > That was my point. It shouldn't matter if they gain an

actual

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benefit
> > from the cheating. He obviously intended to take every

advantage,

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legal
> > or not he could get.
> >
>
> After a mechanic riders come back to the peloton hopping car to

car.

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Once
> in that line, they can take it easy, and draft a few seconds

here

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or

Quoted message said:

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there.
> Nobody minds.
> But before that, there's often deliberate drafting by the team

car.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Almost
> never, or even never, is that sanctioned.
>
> Very often it happens a rider attacks a group and 'surprises'

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

flock of
> motors before. Sometimes the motors will block the way through,

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

on wide
> roads you will ALWAYS see the rider swerve maximally towards

them. I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have
> never met anyone in Europe who'd call that "cheating".

On the subject of the vehicles the rulebook is VERY clear for

conduct

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

within 500 meters of the fininsh.
Read sections 2.2.054 thru 2.2.077 from the UCI rulebook.
Here's a link to it:http://www.uci.ch/english/about/rules.htm
This stuff is on page 11 of the road races section of the pdf.

> These motors are there, and if interfering, they are by no

means

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> rider's responsability.
> If the situation has any influence, it can be considered like a
referee
> deviating the ball in soccer IMO.
> (I admit the role of De Baerdemaeker makes this G-W a border

case.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But
> then he or those who let him in that car should be sanctioned.)
>
> And there might well be juries who would have relegated Mattan

here .

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It
> would even be less moronic than the Tour jury that relegated 2

men

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

touching
> shoulders in a 2 men non-sprinters' sprint, or than some jury
decisions in
> cross in recent years.

For the drafting: Section 19 of the discipline and procedures

section

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lays out the penalties for this. It's page 14 of that pdf

section.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From rereading the rules it's pretty clear to me that both of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

riders should've received a warning and sanctions taken against

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

vehicles which seems to be what happened.
Bill C
Thanks for making me go reread the UCI rules since I don't use

them,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but the USCF rulebook is slowly getting a lot closer to them.

Wrong. The riders were not given a warning. When Hincapie was

DQ'ed

Quoted message said:

from

Quoted message said:

Philly for candyass drafting to get back into the winning move,

that

Quoted message said:

was

Quoted message said:

justified.

In case you don't know it, a "warning" for drafting isn't something

that

Quoted message said:

an official gives to a rider after the race. It's something an

official

Quoted message said:

does when he sees it during the race. And if the rider keeps doing

it,

Quoted message said:

then he faces a DQ (if it's a female rider, she faces a spanking).

Where in the last k was Mattan or Arrowhead given a warning by a

zebra?

Quoted message said:

Don't you know how to apply the drafting rules?

Take care,

Magilla

There was no way to give a warning where the offense occurred. My
assumption is that both riders were given a warning for GP after the
race finished and the vehicles were being penalised. You were there

to

Quoted message said:

know what the officials had to say? Yes, especially being a motor I
know exactly how to apply the rule, unfortunately this was a complete
FUBAR situation at the finish with no good way to handle it. This is
one of the big reasons that USAC has really hammered handling

caravans

Quoted message said:

in it's new training for motors. That's a huge chunk of the new
program, just because it can be a really complicated headache to deal
with.
Let's take a quick run through the USCF 2005 rules on this.

Sigle day race 3B5 - Taking Pace or assistance from any outside means
is forbidden, including holding on to a motor vehicle or taking pace
from riders in different race that is concurrently on the same

course.

Quoted message said:

[relegation or DQ]

Stage races 4H12 Towing and drafting
(c) brief drafting off of a vehicle - Warning If I can't give it at
the time it happens I make it a point to catch the rider after the
finsh, or the next day's start and pass along a friendly reminder

about

Quoted message said:

this.

(d) Prolonged drafting off of a vehicle
Rider- $35 fine and 20 second penalty. DQ in extreme cases.
Pretty simple really.

You want to make sure that the fact that there was a problem, and

that

Quoted message said:

a warning was given get's into the race report, even if it does

happen

Quoted message said:

right after the finish just to CYA in case of a formal protest, or
recurring violations that lead to a DQ and that will lead to a formal
protest. If it's not officially documented and signed it didn't

happen

Quoted message said:

and you know that. I'd have thought with all the [censored] you've been
involved in running that CYA at all times would be a habit by now.
Bill C

Just needed to add that
RULE #1 is never ever leave your chief ref hanging in the wind. Make
sure you let them know everything before they might need it. Make sure
they know exactly what went on, and make sure you can be found if
someone does raise a protest. Since they are in charge, period, they
make all the final decisions and you're not doing your job unless you
find out how they want a situation handled and do what they say. I've
never had any problem working with any of our chief refs, and there
were some interesting moments last year, especially at GMBC.
I'm not arrogant enough to think I know all the answers. I have no
problem with learning new things every day, and considering the quality
of senior officials I get to work with I learn a lot at just about
every race.
Bill C