Did Livingston dope ?

whiteboytrash said:

Do you think that the bloke in USPS Livingstong took doping to T-Mobile ? I think he was a drug mule.... dicuss ?

Livingston was in Dr. Ferrari's files. His hematocrit increase was tracked much like the riders on Gewiss. It seems pretty clear that he doped.

Bringing it to T-Mobile is something else. Evidence so far suggests that T-Mobile did not have an organized doping program. It was everyone for himself. That is probably why the performance of riders like Sevilla, Botero, and Julich went straight into the toilet when they joined the team.

A related question might be which teams have organized doping programs and which do not?

Bro Deal said:

Livingston was in Dr. Ferrari's files. His hematocrit increase was tracked much like the riders on Gewiss. It seems pretty clear that he doped.

Bringing it to T-Mobile is something else. Evidence so far suggests that T-Mobile did not have an organized doping program. It was everyone for himself. That is probably why the performance of riders like Sevilla, Botero, and Julich went straight into the toilet when they joined the team.

A related question might be which teams have organized doping programs and which do not?

Kelme, Festina and USPS/DC operated systematic doping.

Cofidis on the other hand appeared to have several subcontracting doping arrangements.

Jepp.. Livingston told Vaughters Ullrich never went above 42 hct (guess in the period of kevin's stay with the team), so that must have been a pretty poor dope program if there was one. Also FWIW, Livingston together with Hamilton and Dopestrong bought a rolex to dr evil after the 2000 tour was it?

– Cyclingvaughters : C’est là que j’ai réalisé que
Lance nous racontait vraiment des conneries quand il
disait que tout le mondefaisait comme nous…Croismoi,
aussi dingue que cela puisse paraître, Moreau
ne prenait rien, son hématocrite était à 39.
– FDREU : En 2000-2001 ?
– Cyclingvaughters : Oui… Alors, bien sûr, on
commence à réfléchir. Putain, Kevin (Livingston, qui
avait quitté l’US Postal fin 2000 pour aller chez Telekom)
m’a dit qu’après 2000 Ullrich ne courait jamais
au-dessus de 42 !
– FDREU : Après 1999, beaucoup de choses ont
changé. Pas Lance. J’imagine que c’est pour ça que
Kevin s’est tiré. Il en avait marre de tout ça.

Quoted post said:

I think he was a drug mule.... dicuss ?

You think everyone is 😄

Yes. he doped. Who didn't? Who doesn't? 🙁

whiteboytrash said:

Do you think that the bloke in USPS Livingstong took doping to T-Mobile ? I think he was a drug mule.... dicuss ?

His retirement was sort of strange. Out of the blue if I remember correctly. It seemed as though he had a few more years left in him. Sometimes I wonder if these guys don't wake up one day and ask themselves, "What the hell am I doing here."

Look at Landis. For all his moments of glory, he'll be remembered as the American winner who cheated at the Tour de France -- first case sanctioned by the UCI anyway.

I don't mean to hi-jack the thread here, but what the hell was he thinking? Hey, I was pulling for him and all that, but -- purely in retrospect -- his on ride on 17 was just too good to be true. With his hip replacement looming, I've got to wonder if he thought this (06) Tour might be his last and was motivated by that to dope his ass off. The way he was drinking on that stage reminded me of when my buddy Ron had to pass a [censored] test at his security-guard job.

As for Livingstone being a doper: well, of course. What were his connections w/Ferarri, Checcini, et., al?

Livingston is a strange one.... I think he wanted to get out of USPS because he got tired of been forced to dope but he still wanted to race.... he didn't leave to become a team leader he just wanted to get out of the drug circle.... problem he had when he went to T-Mobile Armstrong was so angry with him.... why ? Because he knew that Livingston would tell the others what went on there... Livingston raced clean for 2 years at T-Mobile and knew he couldn't survive without doping so he went home and was a happy man.... he has the key to what went on at USPS but Armstrong did build a bridge to him and offer him money and job back in the US.... he was bought off but if there is one guy who can tell us the truth its him.... but heck why would he want his [censored] sued off for telling the truth ?

RE: Landis its not just his ride on 17 its how sick he looked during the Dauphine... he was hanging onto the team car looking anemic... ten minutes down and barley able to ride his bike.... then all of sudden he can ride the [censored] off the peleton 3 weeks later... all by himself.. I'm convinced he took a transfusion the night before 17.... [censored] Voigt always said that riders take drugs for 2 different reasons... 1. is to fly and 2. to stop yourself from falling apart in stage race..... Landis needed not to fall apart and he did... drugs was his only way back and he knew what to take because he had been on them all year....

helmutRoole2 said:

His retirement was sort of strange. Out of the blue if I remember correctly. It seemed as though he had a few more years left in him. Sometimes I wonder if these guys don't wake up one day and ask themselves, "What the hell am I doing here."

Look at Landis. For all his moments of glory, he'll be remembered as the American winner who cheated at the Tour de France -- first case sanctioned by the UCI anyway.

I don't mean to hi-jack the thread here, but what the hell was he thinking? Hey, I was pulling for him and all that, but -- purely in retrospect -- his on ride on 17 was just too good to be true. With his hip replacement looming, I've got to wonder if he thought this (06) Tour might be his last and was motivated by that to dope his ass off. The way he was drinking on that stage reminded me of when my buddy Ron had to pass a [censored] test at his security-guard job.

As for Livingstone being a doper: well, of course. What were his connections w/Ferarri, Checcini, et., al?

whiteboytrash said:

.... he was bought off but if there is one guy who can tell us the truth its him.... but heck why would he want his [censored] sued off for telling the truth ?

From what I have heard, Livingston in social situations will talk about what was going on at Postal, but he is not willing to go public with it. He is probably just like Vaughters, someone who initially fell for the same type of "we have to do it" speech that Armstrong gave at Motorola but eventually became disgusted with the doping.

Bro Deal said:

From what I have heard, Livingston in social situations will talk about what was going on at Postal, but he is not willing to go public with it. He is probably just like Vaughters, someone who initially fell for the same type of "we have to do it" speech that Armstrong gave at Motorola but eventually became disgusted with the doping.

Livingston left cycling after T-Mobile, a team that burned him out and Julich and a few others as well. Non Germans were treated as pack fodder. He left USPS when he saw the handwriting on the wall, Bruyneel was hiring Chechu and Heras and there would be no place on the TdF team for Kevin.

Livingston left T-Mobile, then retired, and in private does not speak poorly of USPS or El Jefe.

Au contraire, my son was at an elite junior cycling camp outside of AUSTIN in 2003 and Kevin had the kids rolling in the aisles with his imitation of Jan Ullrich, done as they watched videos of the 2001 TdF. Y'know the stage where Jan attacks on the Peyresourde then crashes down the other side.

Kevin sez Jan was all subtlety, kept glancing around, staring at Lance then whispered, then said, then screamed auf deutsche at the top of his lungs:
"Kevin! ATTACK!!!!!!"
even though Kevin was getting ready to along the side of the pack secretly on his own as he listened to the T-Mobile car director give orders.

I think Kevin's drop dead imitation of Jan sez it all, all talent and no brains.
And as for the 42, maybe just maybe in 2001, never again after of course, and I doubt seriously before 99.

[font=Verdana]Good story (even though it didn’t make sense) and another gratuitous attempt by yourself again to get a line in about how awesome your son is with cycling ! Do you think your son will dope like Lance and Livingston ? Besides the points below Lance trashed Livingston in the press for joining Telekom but once Livingston retired knowing that he could "tell all" he got a job for Kevin through Trek and enabled him to set up his consulting coaching services... do honestly think Kevin would tell the stories any other way ? When is still being paid by Lance ? Do you think Kevin should tell the young lads about the bags of blood, the needles and the constant use of drugs at USPS ? or would that just spoil the boys dreams... ? Yep thought so.... so lets just stick the stories how Lance choose the right disc wheel, reconned the circuit and Ullrich just ate and ate and ate... cos that’s why you boys pay for to hear the stories over and over again... you wouldn't want it any other way.... like seeing Jerry Bruckheimer produced movies.. you know what happens in the end by you still pay your lousy 8 bucks to see it.... do your son a favour a let him know the truth so he can make his own decisions.. be awful for him to grow up idolising the biggest drug user in the sport in the last 20 years....[/font]

bobke said:

Livingston left cycling after T-Mobile, a team that burned him out and Julich and a few others as well. Non Germans were treated as pack fodder. He left USPS when he saw the handwriting on the wall, Bruyneel was hiring Chechu and Heras and there would be no place on the TdF team for Kevin.

Livingston left T-Mobile, then retired, and in private does not speak poorly of USPS or El Jefe.

Au contraire, my son was at an elite junior cycling camp outside of AUSTIN in 2003 and Kevin had the kids rolling in the aisles with his imitation of Jan Ullrich, done as they watched videos of the 2001 TdF. Y'know the stage where Jan attacks on the Peyresourde then crashes down the other side.

Kevin sez Jan was all subtlety, kept glancing around, staring at Lance then whispered, then said, then screamed auf deutsche at the top of his lungs:
"Kevin! ATTACK!!!!!!"
even though Kevin was getting ready to along the side of the pack secretly on his own as he listened to the T-Mobile car director give orders.

I think Kevin's drop dead imitation of Jan sez it all, all talent and no brains.
And as for the 42, maybe just maybe in 2001, never again after of course, and I doubt seriously before 99.

bobke said:

Livingston left cycling after T-Mobile, a team that burned him out and Julich and a few others as well. Non Germans were treated as pack fodder. He left USPS when he saw the handwriting on the wall, Bruyneel was hiring Chechu and Heras and there would be no place on the TdF team for Kevin.

Livingston left T-Mobile, then retired, and in private does not speak poorly of USPS or El Jefe.

Au contraire, my son was at an elite junior cycling camp outside of AUSTIN in 2003 and Kevin had the kids rolling in the aisles with his imitation of Jan Ullrich, done as they watched videos of the 2001 TdF. Y'know the stage where Jan attacks on the Peyresourde then crashes down the other side.

Kevin sez Jan was all subtlety, kept glancing around, staring at Lance then whispered, then said, then screamed auf deutsche at the top of his lungs:
"Kevin! ATTACK!!!!!!"
even though Kevin was getting ready to along the side of the pack secretly on his own as he listened to the T-Mobile car director give orders.

I think Kevin's drop dead imitation of Jan sez it all, all talent and no brains.
And as for the 42, maybe just maybe in 2001, never again after of course, and I doubt seriously before 99.

Nice story, but it's hard to understand what you're saying with Lance's [censored] in your mouth. Honestly, and this coming from a big Lance fan, you need to take it out while you're talking, otherwise you just sound like some babbling fool.

Martin Jackson said:

Nice story, but it's hard to understand what you're saying with Lance's [censored] in your mouth. Honestly, and this coming from a big Lance fan, you need to take it out while you're talking, otherwise you just sound like some babbling fool.

That's not nice Martin. You're being bad again.

helmutRoole2 said:

That's not nice Martin. You're being bad again.

I'm the exclusive Lance fluffer. This bobke character is trying to move in on my territory. Someone needs to tell him to back off. I don't mind a [censored] monger, but Lance is my boy.

Martin Jackson said:

Nice story, but it's hard to understand what you're saying with Lance's [censored] in your mouth. Honestly, and this coming from a big Lance fan, you need to take it out while you're talking, otherwise you just sound like some babbling fool.

Keepin' it real,son...
😄 😄 😄

whiteboytrash said:

[font=Verdana]Good story (even though it didn’t make sense) and another gratuitous attempt by yourself again to get a line in about how awesome your son is with cycling ! Do you think your son will dope like Lance and Livingston ? Besides the points below Lance trashed Livingston in the press for joining Telekom but once Livingston retired knowing that he could "tell all" he got a job for Kevin through Trek and enabled him to set up his consulting coaching services... do honestly think Kevin would tell the stories any other way ? When is still being paid by Lance ? Do you think Kevin should tell the young lads about the bags of blood, the needles and the constant use of drugs at USPS ? or would that just spoil the boys dreams... ? Yep thought so.... so lets just stick the stories how Lance choose the right disc wheel, reconned the circuit and Ullrich just ate and ate and ate... cos that’s why you boys pay for to hear the stories over and over again... you wouldn't want it any other way.... like seeing Jerry Bruckheimer produced movies.. you know what happens in the end by you still pay your lousy 8 bucks to see it.... do your son a favour a let him know the truth so he can make his own decisions.. be awful for him to grow up idolising the biggest drug user in the sport in the last 20 years....[/font]

I think the fact that it was junior riders and the year 2003 certainly made it prudent for Kevin to "not go there" re Lance and USPS. If you recall, the does he or doesnt he was not so much on the radar screen in 2003.

The boys said Kevin was very understated and not forthcoming about Lance and USPS other than the typical stuff. I mean these are kids who obviously are the up and coming and knew every detail of Livingston and Lance's career. They were as interested in asking Kevin how he felt the day he finished top six in a mountain stage in the Vuelta with Jan and the crew.

As to whether Kevin played with the hot sauce, why dont we all just leace it alone already and enjoy the sport.

But as to how the next generation will deal with the doping question, my son's coach is absolutely hard core anti-doping, but interestingly was involved in the 84 US Olympics and also tool both Greg and Lance to junior worlds, and no its not Carmichael. The recent reports from junior track worlds was that it was clear who was on the hot stuff and who wasnt. Like the top ten in the pursuit were ETs etc etc and the kids my son knew who went were pretty discouraged.

stevebaby said:

Keepin' it real,son...
😄 😄 😄

Indeed, Martin J - he speaketh the truth!

bobke said:

... my son's coach is absolutely hard core anti-doping, but interestingly was involved in the 84 US Olympics and also tool both Greg and Lance to junior worlds, and no its not Carmichael.

I hope you're not talking Wenzel?

Martin Jackson said:

Nice story, but it's hard to understand what you're saying with Lance's [censored] in your mouth. Honestly, and this coming from a big Lance fan, you need to take it out while you're talking, otherwise you just sound like some babbling fool.

If you are the official fluffer, you are in serious competition with Matt McCaonnaughey, who is the official BFF with Lance, after Lance dumped Hincapie and Kevin, who was the original BFF.

http://us.video.aol.com/video.full.adp?mode=0&pmmsid=1687980&restartUrl=http%3a%2f%2fus%2evideo%2eaol%2ecom%2fvideo%2eindex%2eadp%3fmode%3d1%26pmmsid%3d1687980&mode=1

bobke said:

The recent reports from junior track worlds was that it was clear who was on the hot stuff and who wasnt. Like the top ten in the pursuit were ETs etc etc and the kids my son knew who went were pretty discouraged.

....so what hope is there if the juniors are on the gear ? The next 10 years will be the same as the last....