Did I just enter a crit?

bikeguy said:

I thought it was a road race, but I seem to have entered into a crit. 10 laps of 3,5 km through a small city. I need some quick tips on taking corners in a pack (my first time doing a crit). My 1st objective is not to crash. My 2nd is to win it. Avg speed last year was 38 km/hr.

-Bikeguy

Crit laps by definition are shorter than 1 mile (typically .7). Your laps are over 2 miles. So your race would be called a "circuit race". Circuit races fall in between crits and road races, but generally are more like road races than crits.

Actually, the difference between a crit and a circuit race is huge. Your circuit race involves doing 40 turns (assuming a 4-corner course) in 20+ miles (which roughly translates into 1 turn every 90 seconds @ 20mph). In a 4-corner crit of 20+ miles you could be doing 114 turns (which roughly translates into 1 turn every 30 seconds @ 20 mph). In other words, you are doing 3x as many turns, with 1/3 the recovery time between each turn.

Crits highlight repeated accelerations coming out of corners, with little recovery time before the next acceleration.

Circuit races allow you much more recovery time, and place less emphasis on cornering skills.

You cannot learn to corner by reading tips on the internet.

Go out and ride in fast group rides.

Don't brake in the corners. Don't be behind someone else who does.

Search these boards for other race pointers. They are numerous.

Bob

Bobby Lex said:

Crit laps by definition are shorter than 1 mile (typically .7). Your laps are over 2 miles. So your race would be called a "circuit race". Circuit races fall in between crits and road races, but generally are more like road races than crits.

Actually, the difference between a crit and a circuit race is huge. Your circuit race involves doing 40 turns (assuming a 4-corner course) in 20+ miles (which roughly translates into 1 turn every 90 seconds @ 20mph). In a 4-corner crit of 20+ miles you could be doing 114 turns (which roughly translates into 1 turn every 30 seconds @ 20 mph). In other words, you are doing 3x as many turns, with 1/3 the recovery time between each turn.

Crits highlight repeated accelerations coming out of corners, with little recovery time before the next acceleration.

Circuit races allow you much more recovery time, and place less emphasis on cornering skills.

You cannot learn to corner by reading tips on the internet.

Go out and ride in fast group rides.

Don't brake in the corners. Don't be behind someone else who does.

Search these boards for other race pointers. They are numerous.

Bob

Thanks for the clarification. So it's a circuit race. My cornering skills are quite good, I ride with cars through downtown streets at over 40 kph quite often. I usually pull away around the corners. Is it better to be on the inside or outside in the pack through the turn? Outside is farther, but safer, I think.

-Bikeguy

bikeguy said:

Thanks for the clarification. So it's a circuit race. My cornering skills are quite good, I ride with cars through downtown streets at over 40 kph quite often. I usually pull away around the corners. Is it better to be on the inside or outside in the pack through the turn? Outside is farther, but safer, I think.

Taking an outside line sounds like the logical thing to do in a crit to avoid crashes, but corner crashes tend to slide out, taking out those on an outside line. For this reason, I think it's better to take an inside line. An important thing to do is to prevent someone from cutting you off coming out of the turn. You can do this by ensuring that you keep your shoulders ahead of the guy outside of you, which shouldn't be hard to do since you are tracking the shorter line. Also, watch how far back you get from the front. If somebody goes to the front and launches an attack, the group will gap somewhere and you'll have to go around a bunch of riders and then close the gap. If you stay up in the top 10 or so, this is much less likely to happen.

RapDaddyo said:

Taking an outside line sounds like the logical thing to do in a crit to avoid crashes, but corner crashes tend to slide out, taking out those on an outside line. For this reason, I think it's better to take an inside line. An important thing to do is to prevent someone from cutting you off coming out of the turn. You can do this by ensuring that you keep your shoulders ahead of the guy outside of you, which shouldn't be hard to do since you are tracking the shorter line. Also, watch how far back you get from the front. If somebody goes to the front and launches an attack, the group will gap somewhere and you'll have to go around a bunch of riders and then close the gap. If you stay up in the top 10 or so, this is much less likely to happen.

Thanks for the cornering advice Rapdaddyo, this is what I really don't have any experience (none, actually) with going through tight turns with a group of other cyclists who are very close by. I know I can TT the whole 35 k faster than what the average speed was last year, so I think I have good chances. Ride is on sunday and will be made more difficult by some rain in the forecast. I think there might even be a few sections of cobbles and a hill somewhere. I think I'll leave the Zipp 404 alone and run with my standard ambrosio wheels. If it comes to an uphill sprint at the end the race is mine for sure. I've done a few 5 km TTT type efforts with club members and we did a rotating 40 km TTT type effort in two columns with the right column accelerating to pass the left column to simulate attacks.. Our club has done really well this year, one of our guys won an elite road race with all the best riders present except professionals and a number of other riders have placed top five. I want to add to that.

Since a number of other riders from our team will be riding with me, we will try to move as a group I suppose.

-Bikeguy

bikeguy said:

Since a number of other riders from our team will be riding with me, we will try to move as a group I suppose.

If you have a few other equally matched teammates, you might want to try to control the race from the front. If you throw down enough 1-2 minute attacks, you will deplete the AWC of much of the field. Then, if you launch an attack 3-5 mins from the finish you should end up with only a few up front with you for the sprint. If you allow the race to proceed at a steady pace, their AWC won't be depleted.

bikeguy said:

Since a number of other riders from our team will be riding with me, we will try to move as a group I suppose.

One more thing you can take advantage of when you're riding with some teammates. The accelerations out of the corners are typically hard and, because there are so many of them, they can add up and deplete your AWC. Working with your teammates, you may be able to smooth out these accelerations a bit, saving some of your AWC for the more important attacks and the sprint finish. If you don't have teammates, you don' t have much choice but to go hard and stay in the draft.

RapDaddyo said:

One more thing you can take advantage of when you're riding with some teammates. The accelerations out of the corners are typically hard and, because there are so many of them, they can add up and deplete your AWC. Working with your teammates, you may be able to smooth out these accelerations a bit, saving some of your AWC for the more important attacks and the sprint finish. If you don't have teammates, you don' t have much choice but to go hard and stay in the draft.

You seem to know something about these races. Apparently we'll have traffic in the form of buses (yeah, those long blocks of plastic and metal) on the course on one side of the road and road construction during the race, so it's going to be interesting. No support vehicles are allowed on the course (fines issued). During the warmup there's also a 50 euro fine for passing the finish line for some reason. The start list was just posted, 47 riders in our group total. 3 riders from our team total.

-Bikeguy

bikeguy said:

You seem to know something about these races. Apparently we'll have traffic in the form of buses (yeah, those long blocks of plastic and metal) on the course on one side of the road and road construction during the race, so it's going to be interesting. No support vehicles are allowed on the course (fines issued). During the warmup there's also a 50 euro fine for passing the finish line for some reason. The start list was just posted, 47 riders in our group total. 3 riders from our team total.

Oh, there are guys on this forum who have ridden hundreds of crits. I ride only a few per year and never seek them out. I don't like them much because they don't play to my strengths, I am just a student of training and racing with power and exploiting one's power profile to his advantage in a race. I think it's very unlikely that the race will push you close to your FT limit, but it's very likely that your AWC will be challenged by the constant accelerations out of the corners and the constant attacks. I think AWC is the binding constraint in crits (and many RRs) and not FT. I agree with your first priority (don't crash) and your greatest threat is those who are nervous that they don't have enough power so they will do almost anything to stay in contact and in a good drafting position. There may be a handful of others who view crits as a contact sport, but hopefully you can spot these jerks early and stay clear of them. If you have more power than most of the field (as you seem to), you don't need to panic about being left out in the wind from time to time or a small gap opening up. So, you can take the safer line, especially if you have a few teammates. I'm sure you'll do well.

RapDaddyo said:

Oh, there are guys on this forum who have ridden hundreds of crits. I ride only a few per year and never seek them out. I don't like them much because they don't play to my strengths, I am just a student of training and racing with power and exploiting one's power profile to his advantage in a race. I think it's very unlikely that the race will push you close to your FT limit, but it's very likely that your AWC will be challenged by the constant accelerations out of the corners and the constant attacks. I think AWC is the binding constraint in crits (and many RRs) and not FT. I agree with your first priority (don't crash) and your greatest threat is those who are nervous that they don't have enough power so they will do almost anything to stay in contact and in a good drafting position. There may be a handful of others who view crits as a contact sport, but hopefully you can spot these jerks early and stay clear of them. If you have more power than most of the field (as you seem to), you don't need to panic about being left out in the wind from time to time or a small gap opening up. So, you can take the safer line, especially if you have a few teammates. I'm sure you'll do well.

I just found a map of the area, it's not at all like I thought:
http://kansalaisen.karttapaikka.fi/kartanhaku/osoitehaku.html?scale=40000&tool=suurenna&lang=FI&cy=6820916&cx=2485738&osoite=&kunta=&map.x=192&map.y=202

It's actually in a park, mostly on a bike path, with a small section where the buses are (street). There's a steep 40-50 meter rise every lap, with 10 laps so 400-500 m total climbing in 35 km. I definitely would be pretty slow solo with that much climbing, but looks like I will be able to try at the uphill sprint at the end. We could be doing 80+ downhill. There are nice rounded curves, maybe one sharp corner, but a steep hill up and a dive down. It's going to be brutal. The course looks designed for V02 max intervals. Nobody better walk their poodle across the bike path when we go down that hill!

-Bikeguy

bikeguy said:

I just found a map of the area, it's not at all like I thought:
kansalaisen.karttapaikka.fiosoitehaku.htmlOpen ↗

It's actually in a park, mostly on a bike path, with a small section where the buses are (street). There's a steep 40-50 meter rise every lap, with 10 laps so 400-500 m total climbing in 35 km. I definitely would be pretty slow solo with that much climbing, but looks like I will be able to try at the uphill sprint at the end. We could be doing 80+ downhill. There are nice rounded curves, maybe one sharp corner, but a steep hill up and a dive down. It's going to be brutal. The course looks designed for V02 max intervals. Nobody better walk their poodle across the bike path when we go down that hill!

That type of course probably works to your advantage. You can attack on the climbs and sit in on the downhills. You definitely don't want to go to the front on the downhill because it takes an astronomical amount of watts to cause the field to even have to turn their pedals over. I've been working with a group on a TTT format and it takes an unbelievable amount of power on front to get the guys on back up to 200W and it's almost impossible to force them over 200W. We did a practice ride last Sunday and everybody just bashed his brains out on front in a 7.5 mile downhill segment and my AP was only 213W (and that was with 400-500W pulls every time I was on front).

RapDaddyo said:

That type of course probably works to your advantage. You can attack on the climbs and sit in on the downhills. You definitely don't want to go to the front on the downhill because it takes an astronomical amount of watts to cause the field to even have to turn their pedals over. I've been working with a group on a TTT format and it takes an unbelievable amount of power on front to get the guys on back up to 200W and it's almost impossible to force them over 200W. We did a practice ride last Sunday and everybody just bashed his brains out on front in a 7.5 mile downhill segment and my AP was only 213W (and that was with 400-500W pulls every time I was on front).

What I hate is that being in the back down a hill I tend to run up the tail of the riders in front of me. With the steep hill down I don't think anybody will pedal too hard after suffering on the way up particularly after we've gone through several circuits. I intend to just sit in and feel and look at how the other riders are riding for the first 5 laps, particularly at how fast they go up the hill. I'll use the first 5 to get familiar with the course. If I feel energetic, I'm going to charge the hill on the last round, get a gap and try and hold til the finish. The other members on my team have mentioned that I climb well so I think this race does play to my strengths.

Thanks again for the advice Rapdaddyo.

-bikeguy

bikeguy said:

If I feel energetic, I'm going to charge the hill on the last round, get a gap and try and hold til the finish. The other members on my team have mentioned that I climb well so I think this race does play to my strengths.

If you're going to attempt this tactic, it would really help to get to the top of the climb with one or two of your teammates. A team can go fast downhill, but it takes a lot of practice to do it right. It's virtually a continuous rotation of the lead, with each team member taking very short pulls (e.g., max of 10 seconds) at ~150-200%FT. It takes lots and lots of practice to do this well, it's very fast and furious. The key to it is when to begin accelerating to catch on the back of the team. It's all about timing. By keeping the pulls <15s, you avoid the full physiological response, so you can use AP rather than NP calculation. Fortunately, you have time to work on this if you choose to.

RapDaddyo said:

If you're going to attempt this tactic, it would really help to get to the top of the climb with one or two of your teammates. A team can go fast downhill, but it takes a lot of practice to do it right. It's virtually a continuous rotation of the lead, with each team member taking very short pulls (e.g., max of 10 seconds) at ~150-200%FT. It takes lots and lots of practice to do this well, it's very fast and furious. The key to it is when to begin accelerating to catch on the back of the team. It's all about timing. By keeping the pulls <15s, you avoid the full physiological response, so you can use AP rather than NP calculation. Fortunately, you have time to work on this if you choose to.

I'll be sure to discuss it with the other team members. I'll have to remember to run a low gear before attacking, as I seem to be using too high a gear (hard to accelerate in a high gear, particularly up a hill) in general. No more time to practice though, the race is this sunday.

-bikeguy

bikeguy said:

I'll be sure to discuss it with the other team members. I'll have to remember to run a low gear before attacking, as I seem to be using too high a gear (hard to accelerate in a high gear, particularly up a hill) in general. No more time to practice though, the race is this sunday.

Good luck and have a good race. BTW, I like your first objective.

Race report.

Well I finished the 35 km race and didn't crash. I came in 21st of 41 riders and my time was 56.49. The hill was about 80 meters per lap for 800 meters total climbing. Basically, the bunch would go fast up the hills and then pretty relaxed down the hills (except for one) I clocked myself at 68 kph down one hill. I was pretty much last for the first few laps just watching how the other riders rode - I got gapped twice after the sharp right turn - I didn't go fast enough through the sharp right (110 degree turn) but had enough power to catch back up no problem. I never really rode off the front -mostly at the back but I frequently had a gap of several meters to the rider in front. I did pass the group once when they slowed up and I came flying around them (68 kph). They were just soft pedaling for a bit there and caught up to me later.

I held well through the first 9 laps through all the hills, often passing the last third of the riders and moving into the middle. The last lap came and the lead riders pulled away from me - I had nothing left and was breathing very heavily after being passed by three riders 200 meters before the finish - I then repassed two of them sprinting for the finish line. My legs never felt heavy - just breathing very hard and got a splitting headache just after finishing and had to sit down for 10 minutes. I noticed several other riders breathing very heavily at many points during the race.

Our team leader called this course the most hilly and technically challenging race in the calendar in all of Finland so I'm happy with my placing. It was my 2nd road race ever.

-Bikeguy

bikeguy said:

Race report.

Well I finished the 35 km race and didn't crash. I came in 21st of 41 riders and my time was 56.49. The hill was about 80 meters per lap for 800 meters total climbing. Basically, the bunch would go fast up the hills and then pretty relaxed down the hills (except for one) I clocked myself at 68 kph down one hill. I was pretty much last for the first few laps just watching how the other riders rode - I got gapped twice after the sharp right turn - I didn't go fast enough through the sharp right (110 degree turn) but had enough power to catch back up no problem. I never really rode off the front -mostly at the back but I frequently had a gap of several meters to the rider in front. I did pass the group once when they slowed up and I came flying around them (68 kph). They were just soft pedaling for a bit there and caught up to me later.

I held well through the first 9 laps through all the hills, often passing the last third of the riders and moving into the middle. The last lap came and the lead riders pulled away from me - I had nothing left and was breathing very heavily after being passed by three riders 200 meters before the finish - I then repassed two of them sprinting for the finish line. My legs never felt heavy - just breathing very hard and got a splitting headache just after finishing and had to sit down for 10 minutes. I noticed several other riders breathing very heavily at many points during the race.

Our team leader called this course the most hilly and technically challenging race in the calendar in all of Finland so I'm happy with my placing. It was my 2nd road race ever.

-Bikeguy

Good report and good result. You achieved your first objective, so everything else was a bonus. Did you ride with a power meter?

RapDaddyo said:

Good report and good result. You achieved your first objective, so everything else was a bonus. Did you ride with a power meter?

No PM, and won't be one either for quite a while. Thanks for the support RDO.

-Bikeguy

Hey RDO,

I've done some calculations by hand, and based on the hill length (and height difference per lap 80 meters) and gradient (pretty much 7%) and remembering looking at my speedo, my speed was never below 23 km/hr up the hills and more like 28-30 kph, I figure about (and generally more on the high side) 410-520 watts going up the hills (in 3 sections, it wasn't one big rise). The climbing time roughly 179 seconds total, but faster on the last lap and slower when the leaders decided to take a break. The most tiring part was the finish lunge and accelerating after the sharp right turn, everybody hammered after that and power was definitely highest here, probably like 600-650 w. I remember that I decided to pedal after the 1st three laps during the turn even though I was leaned right over, that's what stopped the large gap forming that I had the first two laps. Damn close to pedal contact with the ground. I did take the outside.

The race was almost exactly like doing VO2 max intervals, everybody was huffing at the end of the hills and then recovering on the way down. The flat was taken at a good speed.

-bikeguy

bikeguy said:

Hey RDO,

I've done some calculations by hand, and based on the hill length (and height difference per lap 80 meters) and gradient (pretty much 7%) and remembering looking at my speedo, my speed was never below 23 km/hr up the hills and more like 28-30 kph, I figure about (and generally more on the high side) 410-520 watts going up the hills (in 3 sections, it wasn't one big rise). The climbing time roughly 179 seconds total, but faster on the last lap and slower when the leaders decided to take a break. The most tiring part was the finish lunge and accelerating after the sharp right turn, everybody hammered after that and power was definitely highest here, probably like 600-650 w. I remember that I decided to pedal after the 1st three laps during the turn even though I was leaned right over, that's what stopped the large gap forming that I had the first two laps. Damn close to pedal contact with the ground. I did take the outside.

The race was almost exactly like doing VO2 max intervals, everybody was huffing at the end of the hills and then recovering on the way down. The flat was taken at a good speed.

That's why I was interested in your ride file if you had ridden with a PM. I'm thinking that the deciding factor in this race (as it is in many RRs and crits IMO) was anaerobic work capacity. Each time up the hill you burned matches and only part of AWC is recoverable. So, your total AWC was diminished each lap. The short accelerations coming out of the corners probably didn't dent your AWC because they're too short to start the engine (<15secs). In all likelihood, your NP never exceeded your FT, but that's irrelevant when it comes time to draw on your AWC. When the tank's dry, the tank's dry. I am interested in tracking this resource real-time, independent of aerobic capacity.