Diabetic Control without meds, your thoughts.

"rainbow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Possibly, LOL!, we've been over this before ? I know not
everyone can do it, medically. But what if it would be
possible to really control yourself thru diet and
exercise. I mean. really commit ... whole heartedly. Never
look back and just go for it.

<snip>

This isn't necessarily doable. Don't forget that diabetes is
a progressive disease. I've been off meds, on meds, off
meds, on meds, on more meds, and now on more meds and
probably soon to be on more meds still, even though I'm
eating less carbs. Weight loss doesn't necessarily mean
better control. And I'm finding now that some forms of
exercise are raising my BG instead of lowering it. Seems
like just when I think I have something figured out, I get
thrown for another loop. I have committed myself to diet and
exercise for the rest of my life. And yet for me it isn't
enough. No shame in meds if you need them.

--
Type 2 users.bestweb.net~jboveOpen ↗

A lot depends on the individual. My grandfather committed to
the exercise (he loved swimming and tennis) and diet
changes. However, he'd just gotten the avoid sweets lectures
and didn't know how to judge the grain and fruit serving
size. He also tested only once a day at most. So he still
needed meds. He ended up having bypass surgery and then a
stroke. Even at that point none of the professionals talked
to him about testing more frequently (I did but he only did
that when I visited).

His brother didn't exercise and refused to alter his eating
habits. Uncle Abe needs meds and he's seriously ill but he's
still hanging
in. (Grandpa passed away in 1998 and he was the
younger sibling.)

Which is the better choice? I think my grandfather set the
better example even if his life was shorter - by the quality
of life for a longer period.

Cindy Wells (who is trying the exercise and diet routine
with the hopes of staving off needing meds for 20 extra
years - but I was always too skinny by the charts.)

rainbow said:

Possibly, LOL!, we've been over this before ? I know not
everyone can do it, medically. But what if it would be
possible to really control yourself thru diet and
exercise. I mean. really commit ... whole heartedly. Never
look back and just go for it. Lose the necessary weight,
no matter how difficult.

I was diagnosed in 1989 at 262 pounds. I was on meds for
approximately 9 months. During that time I reduced my wieght
to 182 poinds and took up training to run in 5 and 10K runs
which I did for about 10 years. I maintained BG levels at
fasting at around 100, post meals under 150. Several years
ago I became less active and found that I had to return to
meds and a stricter diet to control my BGs.

BJ

Rainbow...

The problem is not everyone can control without meds.

This is a progressive disease. Some people's bodies have
progressed such that no matter how much they diet... no
matter how much they exercise... no matter how much they
commit, their bodies cannot provide what they need to
maintain glucose control.

Some go on insulin. Some use oral meds.

The premise that we could all do it if we only tried hard
enough puts a lot of guilt and shame on those that cannot.

And for those that do use oral meds that "might" be able to
go without? For many, the extra help that oral meds provide
means that they can live a life of health their own way.

No med works without a food/exercise plan to aid it. For
some it's a matter of balancing the three that gives them
the quality of life they desire.

Everyone needs to find that balance for themselves. If
you've chosen a no med approach and it works. Then that's
great! I'm glad you found your path.

The only thing that matters is that we all find a plan that
ends with glucose control. How each of us gets there is
immaterial. All roads lead to Rome.

Jennifer

rainbow said:

Possibly, LOL!, we've been over this before ? I know not
everyone can do it, medically. But what if it would be
possible to really control yourself thru diet and
exercise. I mean. really commit ... whole heartedly. Never
look back and just go for it. Lose the necessary weight,
no matter how difficult. Get off all drugs and live free.
My question is really this, emotionally, which is worse,
all the trouble with meds and docs and stuff that goes
wrong. All the money. Those of you that need insulin would
not be able to do this, but what about those that can. The
emotional stress of having to do a lifestyle change, and
do some tings I might not like as far as that goes, was
VERY DEEP. More than I thought I could ever handle. I have
spent time in Hell because of it, worried, stressed, and
annoyed because I could not do whatever pleased me because
of the disease. If I wanted to live free of drugs, I knew
I would have to do it. just do it, and not look back.
There are o manyissues here. Too many. But I am thinking
it's not worth all I have been thru with all the docs I've
had. All the awfull stuff that's happened. All that money,
ill spent. Would I have been better served, if I had just
taken are of my diet, lost all that weight and done m
exercise program ? Life wasn't perfect, but I was a happy
girl, I could DO this. I could handle the managment of
this disease. Truly, I am asking that if you would make a
choice, would it be to do this outside of the docs office,
if you could, My sister thinks that some people just need
the attention people get for having diabetes. Both she and
I are weight losers, and controlled by exercise and diet.
We know so many people on eds and insulin, going thru
money like they are bleeding and having so much trouble
with docs, and medical side effects. Do people just need
this ? Is it really too hard for most of us to stay on a
diet, do what we know is the right thing ? I have an
identical twin sister who got herself thin and under
control, so I kind of knew I could, as well. Both of us
went cold trukey. As hard as it was, all the emotional
things we went thru, were really extreme. VERY bad. But
when you consider what I have been thru with all the bad
docs and unclear reasons why I was asked to put so many
chemicals in my body, and have proceedures and tests that
might not have been necessary and the way it has ruined
our finances, and if you want to reach really far out, the
insurance community / industry and all the medical bills
that sit unpaid, and gotten upset at docs that wouldn't
listen, isn't the choice clear ? I suppose there are those
of you that will say "what if" .. what if I had
undiagnosed ??? well. It looks like I have an undiagnosed
problem anyway, that got missed ... 6 one way / half a
dozen the other, eh ? Aside from something like a sinus
infection, or pneumonia, we've decided that self care is a
greater thing. We've decided that being really in tune
with our diet and doing what we can to help ourselves is
the best course. It's actually less stressful to us,
knowing we don't have to deal with all these hidden
adgendas docs have. I wish all of us could be able to live
well thru better lifestyles, but I know some of you can't.
I know there are medical conditions out there, that need
care. If it is necessary than there is othing you can do.
I hope there's someone lurking out there that needs a push
in the right direction. Someone who isn;t doing right that
needs to, and asking all these questions makes them
"behave". I would never ever want anyone to go thru what I
have. To be honest, I think i would not have had so many
problems, if I had just done what I knew to be right, with
diet and exercise and NEVER did anything else. DO some of
you just take it for granted that you need to be on meds
and just do it because this is what you have been told ? I
am wondering what percentage of you won't commit to a diet
and exercise program and just take the drugs. I also
wonder how many of you started on drugs, lost weight and
got off drugs, eventually and had sucess. I know I am
asking a lot of questions. Don't I always ? LOL! Would you
rather emotionall committ to lifestyle changes or would
you just rather not. Which do you think is harder. Which
do you think serves you the best. Rainbow

Anything that will get your bg to the goal you want is OK.
If exercise and weight loss gets you to a "normal" range of
blood sugars, then great.

But if you relax the standards of what you're trying to
achieve - i.e. put up with higher than normal bgs - solely
to stay off medication, then I think you're doing yourself a
disservice.

Jon

Rainbow, all I know is my own experences. I fought verty
hard to stay off meds for years. I went on insulin whwn my
weight reached 140 lbs. Started at 180 lbs. I had went to
high protein using mostly soy protein in the final stages. I
finally wenr on insulin but control was very poor. I was
seeing blood sugars of 500 to 700 and at one time the H1ac
was near the top of the scale. I was not receiving much help
from the docs. A lot of the "It is your fault game."

I had to work during the whole period and it was not easy.

Then the world fell in with gross complications.

I did not find my real problem until I came to MHD. Lots of
very good people there in that time frame, Charly is still
around. Nico also. From what i learned and the testing
progeram I set uo I was able to stablilize my status.

What a person needs to do is a variable the medical
profession needs to address. It is not done in a three
minute session.

I suspect there is no one answer. I come here every day
for years and learn smething almost every day. As other
have posted we have to educate ourselves and do most of
the work ourselves. Unfortunately some do not realize this
or don;t care.

In the end you will answer most of your questions yourself.
Wedo our selves a favor when we respect the value of MHD abd
ASD. The politics and the Ism's will be lost when you suffer
enough. Hang in there and stick with us. I often think of
you. Where is she now. Guy..

So here's a little follow-up, I think I said not everyone is
caable of staying off meds. Wih all the problems they cause,
it would be my last resort after the faith healer did't
work. I tik people don;t have faith in their ablity to
really control themselves and they opt ou for wha the
doctors offer. Maybe it's too quick a fix. Maybe they do it,
'cause that's what docs do, prescribe meds. My question
really is, would you rather beat this without the mesf if
you could. Quality of life for me, has been much better off
than on the drugs. I had been dx'd for about 2 years when I
suddenly had to change docs. The new doc refused all my old
paperwork, nd looked suspiciously at my hardwon weight loss,
tellng me it was no possile todo without drugs or starving
or bulimia. She tried to put me on insulin because all
diabetics need it according to her and she had not trust in
me to keep myself in control. She suggested an antidpressant
amoung other things, that did not make sense. This after 2
years with an endo that cheered me on during the mammoth
weight loss and knew I was not just being good on the day I
saw him to have a bg of 70. He took me off meds because they
were not needed, in his opinion, I hit a bump and got
fatiqued, was gaining weight, and having other problems.
It's apparent now that, I was somewhat misdiagnosed ...
which I knew then, but didn't know what it was. I went off
all meds by myself and have found my greatest success and my
greatest happiness and control really lie in the struggle to
diet and exercise. My quality of life is much better. I know
everyoneca medically do it, but I know there are people out
there that would take an easier road. I would think that our
bodies would be better off not using meds, but only as a
last resort. It's just so much better for me. Rainbow

Some of you know I am going blind. Some of you don't, but
you do now. Looking at this screen can be daunting. I type
the way I type because I cannot see well. You no like, you
no read. It is dificult to do it any other way. Both
Pricilla and Dave are rude. That's a fact as sure as
anything. Both of you seem to have nothing else to do except
yell at me and count my mistakes. I am glad you have a
higher education and intelligence than I do, I am o glad you
can criticize (spelling?) what am saying, like I am the town
idiot. Both of have just auditioned for the part of the back
end of a donkey, in a play called "Who's The Jackass". This
group is the only one who ever yells at me. I have a couple
of yahoo groups and mentor people in my profession, who
value my input and don't care what I type like, talk like,
or any other language rules. If it is difficult to read,
they are not rude ... I take pride in my online mentoring,
because I know I am making a difference. I know my little
speeches are meaningful to people, they keep paying for it.
It's a good thing my keyboard batteries died, because what
didn't get thru was a childish name calling speil (spelling
?). But it went something like this ... so is your 1st name
BAY, 2nd name Area, last name Dave ? Geez, I am glad my mama
didn't ame me after the Bay of <male
chauvinist> Pigs .... Oh. terribly sorry, you live in Sf,
chauvinist> r-i-g-h-t !
Rainbow

rainbow said:

Would you rather emotionally committ to lifestyle changes
or would you just rather not. Which do you think is
harder. Which do you think serves you the best. Rainbow

Different strokes for different folks. Are you under
the impression that everyone here is taking
medication? If you are, that's incorrect. There are
lots of us on diet and exercise.

Besides what's wrong with taking drugs? Are
pharmaceuticals satanic in nature or something? Do
you think it's safe to take supplements because
they're natural? Or do you recommend we stop taking
vitamins too?

E

In article <[email hidden]>,

(rainbow) said:

So here's a little follow-up, I think I said not everyone
is caable of staying off meds. Wih all the problems they
cause, it would be my last resort after the faith healer
did't work. I tik people don;t have faith in their ablity
to really control themselves and they opt ou for wha the
doctors offer. Maybe it's too quick a fix. Maybe they do
it, 'cause that's what docs do, prescribe meds. My
question really is, would you rather beat this without
the mesf if you could. Quality of life for me, has been
much better off than on the drugs. I had been dx'd for
about 2 years when I suddenly had to change docs. The new
doc refused all my old paperwork, nd looked suspiciously
at my hardwon weight loss, tellng me it was no possile
todo without drugs or starving or bulimia. She tried to
put me on insulin because all diabetics need it according
to her and she had not trust in me to keep myself in
control. She suggested an antidpressant amoung other
things, that did not make sense. This after 2 years with
an endo that cheered me on during the mammoth weight loss
and knew I was not just being good on the day I saw him
to have a bg of 70. He took me off meds because they were
not needed, in his opinion, I hit a bump and got
fatiqued, was gaining weight, and having other problems.
It's apparent now that, I was somewhat misdiagnosed ...
which I knew then, but didn't know what it was. I went
off all meds by myself and have found my greatest success
and my greatest happiness and control really lie in the
struggle to diet and exercise. My quality of life is much
better. I know everyoneca medically do it, but I know
there are people out there that would take an easier
road. I would think that our bodies would be better off
not using meds, but only as a last resort. It's just so
much better for me. Rainbow

I stopped reading after the first few lines. You need to
attend to you keying and reacquaint yourself with the
concept of paragraphs.

Priscilla

Without meds, my quality of life is terrible. With meds I
have excellent control and am able to eat a very nicely
balanced diet.

A lot of here start to resent it when people infer that
those who use meds are somehow lesser than those who don't.
I follow all the diabetic rules but without meds, my
control becomes very difficult. The stress becomes worse
for me than the meds.

c

"rainbow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5357-40B7A6C5-114@storefull-
3114.bay.webtv.net...

Quoted message said:

So here's a little follow-up, I think I said not everyone
is caable of staying off meds. Wih all the problems they
cause, it would be my last resort after the faith healer
did't work. I tik people don;t have faith in their ablity
to really control themselves and they opt ou for wha the
doctors offer. Maybe it's too quick a fix. Maybe they do
it, 'cause that's what docs do, prescribe meds. My
question really is, would you rather beat this without
the mesf if you could. Quality of life for me, has been
much better off than on the drugs. I had been dx'd for
about 2 years when I suddenly had to change docs. The new
doc refused all my old paperwork, nd looked suspiciously
at my hardwon weight loss, tellng me it was no possile
todo without drugs or starving or bulimia. She tried to
put me on insulin because all diabetics need it according
to her and she had not trust in me to keep myself in
control. She suggested an antidpressant amoung other
things, that did not make sense. This after 2 years with
an endo that cheered me on during the mammoth weight loss
and knew I was not just being good on the day I saw him
to have a bg of 70. He took me off meds because they were
not needed, in his opinion, I hit a bump and got
fatiqued, was gaining weight, and having other problems.
It's apparent now that, I was somewhat misdiagnosed ...
which I knew then, but didn't know what it was. I went
off all meds by myself and have found my greatest success
and my greatest happiness and control really lie in the
struggle to diet and exercise. My quality of life is much
better. I know everyoneca medically do it, but I know
there are people out there that would take an easier
road. I would think that our bodies would be better off
not using meds, but only as a last resort. It's just so
much better for me. Rainbow

Rainbow, I have watched you a long time. This is not the
place to worry about education. One of my mentors had a
fifth grade formal education. I consulted him many times
when he was alive. The advice was very good, with both feet
on the ground. He was worth a few million and a leader in
his community. Every person has their place here. I do like
your view on meds. It is a personal choice. I had some
unfortunate experiences with some of common diabetic drugs.
We reach the situation where certain drugs are necessary. I
look hard before I use them.

This is the internet and we have to expect to be insulted.
It goes with the territory. Who cares. Tomorrow is another
day. Relax and contribute. A number of us have problems
that interfere with computer use. Very big monitors help.
We share here. Let each person have their say. Above all
----RELAX. Several of us have the prospect of going blind
or for that matter death. I will use my time in a positive
manner as well as I can. As usual I do fail. I am sure you
will try. Guy

On Fri, 28 May 2004 19:07:22 -0700, [email hidden]

(rainbow) said:

Some of you know I am going blind. Some of you don't, but
you do now. Looking at this screen can be daunting. I type
the way I type because I cannot see well. You no like, you
no read. It is dificult to do it any other way. Both
Pricilla and Dave are rude. That's a fact as sure as
anything. Both of you seem to have nothing else to do
except yell at me and count my mistakes. I am glad you
have a higher education and intelligence than I do, I am o
glad you can criticize (spelling?) what am saying, like I
am the town idiot. Both of have just auditioned for the
part of the back end of a donkey, in a play called "Who's
The Jackass". This group is the only one who ever yells at
me. I have a couple of yahoo groups and mentor people in
my profession, who value my input and don't care what I
type like, talk like, or any other language rules. If it
is difficult to read, they are not rude ... I take pride
in my online mentoring, because I know I am making a
difference. I know my little speeches are meaningful to
people, they keep paying for it. It's a good thing my
keyboard batteries died, because what didn't get thru was
a childish name calling speil (spelling ?). But it went
something like this ... so is your 1st name BAY, 2nd name
Area, last name Dave ? Geez, I am glad my mama didn't ame
me after the Bay of <male
chauvinist> Pigs .... Oh. terribly sorry, you live in Sf,
chauvinist> r-i-g-h-t !
Rainbow

(rainbow) said:

Some of you know I am going blind. Some of you don't, but
you do now. Looking at this screen can be daunting. I type
the way I type because I cannot see well. You no like, you
no read. It is dificult to do it any other way. Both
Pricilla and Dave are rude.

Priscilla criticised your formatting. That's not rude. Your
formatting is terrible.

I have a friend whose vision is nearly gone. He's registered
blind and walks with a white stick. He still writes email,
etc., and recently finished a book ghost writing contract.
He can only read what he types by using a special computer
program for the nearly blind which allows him to use the
screen like a giant magnifying glass.

Nevertheless his spelling and formatting is exemplary. That
is why he was employed as a ghost writer. But his vision is
now so poor he has decided not to do any more contract work.
It hasn't affected his writing skills, it simply makes it
more difficult and tedious to read and write.

I conclude that poor spelling and formatting are not
necessarily connected with poor vision. In fact as someone
whose job sometimes involves teaching people writing skills
I know that the most important thing is simply whether or
not you care.

Quoted message said:

Both of you seem to have nothing else to do except yell at
me and count my mistakes.

You really must learn not to take criticism of opinions and
writing style as personal. It's impossible to learn anything
if you take criticism personally.

Quoted message said:

I am glad you have a higher education and intelligence than
I do, I am o glad you can criticize (spelling?) what am
saying, like I am the town idiot.

If they thought you were too stupid to learn from your
mistakes they wouldn't bother criticising you. Nobody
bothers trying to teach the town idiot anything.

Quoted message said:

It's a good thing my keyboard batteries died, because what
didn't get thru was a childish name calling speil
(spelling ?).

On most computer systems it takes less time to get the spell
checker to heck and correct a word than it does to type
"(spelling?)".

If it was a good thing your keyboard batteries died when you
were too angry to post anything sensible, how about
pretending your keyboard batteries have died when you get
too angry?
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Priscilla Ballou said:

In article <5357-40B7A6C5-114@storefull-
3114.bay.webtv.net>, [email hidden]

(rainbow) said:

So here's a little follow-up, I think I said not
everyone is caable of staying off meds. Wih all the
problems they cause, it would be my last resort after
the faith healer did't work. I tik people don;t have
faith in their ablity to really control themselves and
they opt ou for wha the doctors offer. Maybe it's too
quick a fix. Maybe they do it, 'cause that's what docs
do, prescribe meds. My question really is, would you
rather beat this without the mesf if you could. Quality
of life for me, has been much better off than on the
drugs. I had been dx'd for about 2 years when I suddenly
had to change docs. The new doc refused all my old
paperwork, nd looked suspiciously at my hardwon weight
loss, tellng me it was no possile todo without drugs or
starving or bulimia. She tried to put me on insulin
because all diabetics need it according to her and she
had not trust in me to keep myself in control. She
suggested an antidpressant amoung other things, that did
not make sense. This after 2 years with an endo that
cheered me on during the mammoth weight loss and knew I
was not just being good on the day I saw him to have a
bg of 70. He took me off meds because they were not
needed, in his opinion, I hit a bump and got fatiqued,
was gaining weight, and having other problems. It's
apparent now that, I was somewhat misdiagnosed ... which
I knew then, but didn't know what it was. I went off all
meds by myself and have found my greatest success and my
greatest happiness and control really lie in the
struggle to diet and exercise. My quality of life is
much better. I know everyoneca medically do it, but I
know there are people out there that would take an
easier road. I would think that our bodies would be
better off not using meds, but only as a last resort.
It's just so much better for me. Rainbow

I stopped reading after the first few lines. You need to
attend to you keying

As do I. "your keying"

Quoted message said:

and reacquaint yourself with the concept of paragraphs.

Priscilla

On Fri, 28 May 2004 16:58:28 -0500, "Colleen" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Without meds, my quality of life is terrible. With meds I
have excellent control and am able to eat a very nicely
balanced diet.

A lot of here start to resent it when people infer that
those who use meds are somehow lesser than those who don't.
I follow all the diabetic rules but without meds, my
control becomes very difficult. The stress becomes worse
for me than the meds.

c

The thing we have to keep in mind with T2 is that it is
progressive. I am one of those fighting it without meds -
for the moment. And I'll continue to try hard to do so. But
I accept that the day may come when it's time to move to the
next stage.

I must admit I've not noticed the inference you mention; my
encouragement to try to do it without meds is never meant to
imply any criticism of those who need them, as I may
someday. But if it is possible to minimise meds then I will
certainly support that goal in myself and others.

My criticism is of unnecessary meds - such as those required
to counter the ADA high starch recommendations. JMO.

Cheers Alan, T2, Australia. Remove weight and carbs to
email.
--
dx May 2002 , A1C 8.2=>5.9, wt 117kg=>92kg, No diabetes
meds. Diet and not enough exercise. I have no medical
qualifications beyond my own experience. Choose your
advisers carefully, because experience can be an
expensive teacher.

Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

I am a sloppy poster. I do many things that convey more
information in a casual manner. But I think I do convey
support and information.

Invoking the special academic goals is not what we need
here. We need diabetic experiences that will help other
people. "Talking" over their head has no place here. It
seems to intended to invoke a "superior" prerogative. It
really is very juvenile. I saw the essence of it in high
school sophomores. Diabetic need help and support. This not
a academic chat group. ] What the hell does anyone not give
a little slack to other sick people. It because that is all
they have is a few negative comments. Many people come here
from all groups. Many are under great stress and the last
thing they need is criticism

I have had the training and know the rules. But this is not
to show off, but to get to as many people as possible.
Diabetes can be a horrible disease, which has been
demonstrated to me first hand. Loss of vision and hand
sensitivity are burdens common in diabetics.

Those that do not like this should not read my posts. It is
that simple. Other sensitive people do not need a word
lashing. Technically incorrect or clinically incorrect
should be challenged with real data that point out the
errors. Spammers should be shown no respect which they
demand very often. . I am tired of the dog fights here Guy.

Whoa baby ! When did I say anything about it being wrong to
take drugs ??? Or about natural things being better, or
Satan ??? Whoa, put on the brakes !!! Natural things are
mostly bunk, in my opinion. I don't believe in Satanism and
what the hell has that go to do with this !!! This was about
caring for yourself enough to go the distance off drugs if
possible for as long as possible. Side effects being what
they are, etc. My feeling is that the body really knows the
difference between being chemically managed and being fed
and exercised well. It seems to me, there might be a rebound
effect, or something from starting to take the drugs before
you have really given a lifestyle change the best shot you
can. Emotionally, I think you can be better prepared to move
forward through this knowing you gave it a shot. I did and I
know others who have. The people I know who haven't are not
doing as well as we. Both of them opted for an easier route.
It is a very positive and powerful feeling to be able to
control this thing and know that I am chemical free for as
long as i can be. The endo who dx'd me was of this opinion
also. He took me off everything. He also said that I was
unusual , in that only 5 people out of 100 would actually be
interested in a better lifestyle, as apposed to a quicker
fix. I never said drugs were wrong... In fact, I said I knew
there were people who needed them. Some of my doctors were
absolutely adamant that I would not be able to succeed in a
lifestyle change, and put me on every kind of dug. i made
the jump to a lifestyle change and they took me off the
drugs. At irst thy had been unwilling to even let me try. I
am of the opinion that we should take as few drugs, even OTC
stuff as we can get away with. I do have other issues, but
they do not relate to this question. And don't throw that
Satan thing at me, it's very offensive, as is the assumption
that I support "natural things". I've been all thruthat mess
and maze of nuts and berries and it never did a single thing
for me. Rainbow

(rainbow) said:

I type everything I do on web tv and someone kndly re-
formats it and checks it out.

Except for posting to this newsgroup.

Quoted message said:

They arenot rude ...

Because they have agreed to do this work for you.

Quoted message said:

Now, as to the so called natural products. That was a
supposition on your part. I do not believe in those
substances, at all. And I do not believe them to be better
than drugs.

Good.

Quoted message said:

We all know that the consumption of all chemicals has
it's dowfall.

Who's this "we"? Not me, and certainly not all of the
readers on this newsgroup, nor all of those authors who
write books about diabetes.

Quoted message said:

What my "problem" is here is not because i am one of those
"nature freaks". I am not.

But you think that "We all know that the consumption of all
chemicals has it's dowfall." I don't know what you mean by
"chemical". I guess you mean something made artificially in
a laboratory, something "unnatural". But then you have
already said that I was wrong in supposing you thought that
natural products were good and chemicals bad. So I'm
confused, and can't understand your position. I don't even
know what you mean by "chemical", and I'm pretty sure that
even if you posted twenty pages explaining what you meant
and I could be bothered to struggle through them I still
wouldn't be much clearer.

Quoted message said:

So look at you, Chris .... you made assumptions that you
thought were correct and you were wrong.

And look at you, Rainbow. You've posted a whole page in
support of your claim that I was wrong, and yet you seem at
the same time to be saying again all those kinds of things
you claim I was wrong in thinking you believed.

You'll need to do a lot better than that to convince me I
was wrong.

But why should you bother? I'm a pedantic old academic
with a lifetime's training in clear expression and
argument, and you are are posting through the keyhole of a
web TV interface and get someone else to tidy up your
writings so other folk can make sense of them -- except
what you post here.

The simple point that several folk have been trying to make
to you is that it is sufficiently much extra work to try to
make sense of what you write here that some people (many
people?) simply don't bother. You say that you are a writer
whose writings elsewhere are valued. But according to you
your writings elsewhere are edited before publication by
someone else.

I wish I could recall the name of that US general who said
something along the lines of "You can tell how much
importance someone attaches to what they have to say by the
amount of care they take in expressing it clearly."

Clearly I'm not going to persuade you of anything, and
clearly there is no point in trying to have a discussion
with someone who doesn't care how confusing and difficult
their careless writings are to understand.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 08:40:32 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris

Malcolm) said:

I'm a pedantic old academic

Hullo Chris.

I agree.

Possibly you could use that statement to clarify for readers
the difference between agreeing and being agreeable.

Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia. Remove weight and
carbs to email.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.