Descent Knee pain

A couple of walking poles reduces presure on the legs. Some walkers
use anti-shock ones, but I have one of each and note no difference.
(Only reason for this is one broke and the non anti shock pole was
cheaper).

You need to ajust the poles to the correct height on ascent and on
descent.

Lindsay
www.caledoniahilltreks.com

John said:

Well, first inroads into walking today....was not expecting the pain
in both knees that I experienced during descent.
How do I deal with this and what is the prevention.
Help Appreciated.
John.

keep going. the more you do it the easier it gets. your knees are not used
to the abrasion and pressure associated with walking further than the
probable car-shop-work-car routine. the more you walk in the hills / in
general the quicker your body will adapt. I've recently started hill walking
after a very prolonged absence and my knees were screaming a couple
of days afterwards. it's called DOMS: delayed muscle soreness but that
also, bradly, can be applied to joints and bones.

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:04:46 GMT, "John" <[email protected]>

Quoted message said:

Well, first inroads into walking today....was not expecting the pain in both
knees that I experienced during descent.
How do I deal with this and what is the prevention.

Walk more. I'd say if you can strengthen your muscles to the point where
you can walk and descend unaided with minimal discomfort, then that would
ultimately be preferable to using poles. If you find your knees always give
problems or you occasionally undertake a particularly strenuous walk, then
poles will reduce the strain.

My knees used to hurt when I took up hill-walking again, some 7 or 8 years
ago. They're now much stronger and hardly give me any problems. That's in
the face of general body decline...

--
All right, I'll have the dead unjugged rabbit fish.

John said:

Well, first inroads into walking today....was not expecting the pain in both
knees that I experienced during descent.
How do I deal with this and what is the prevention.

John,

Unless you have known knee or joint problems, I'd imagine the pain
comes from the repeated impact of landing your full weight on your
heels through straight legs, and there's basically no shock absorbency
in a straight leg so the impact hits your knees first.

So, suggestions:

If you are a vigorous descender then maybe slowing down somewhat will
help, since a lighter step down should reduce the impact by making the
weight transfer from back to front leg smoother.

Also, you can try to turn slightly sideways and introduce a slight bend
in the knee on steep sections of the descent, so that the muscles
around the knees will then take the impact instead of the knee joints.

If possible (usually on a substantial step down where the knee is
necessarily straight) try to land on your toes and ball of the foot
first, so that the ankle muscles provide shock absorbency.

Finally, many people swear by walking poles, since, when used properly
(and this is not a throwaway clause), they can tranfer a substantial
amount of the impact to your arms, and thus help your knees. I'd
suggest, though, that you give your muscles a chance to do the job
first before going down the pole route.

Oh, and I am not a doctor. :-)

Colin

"Colin MacDonald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Unless you have known knee or joint problems, I'd imagine the pain
comes from the repeated impact of landing your full weight on your
heels through straight legs, and there's basically no shock
absorbency
in a straight leg so the impact hits your knees first.

So, suggestions:

If you are a vigorous descender then maybe slowing down somewhat
will
help, since a lighter step down should reduce the impact by making
the
weight transfer from back to front leg smoother.

Also, you can try to turn slightly sideways and introduce a slight
bend
in the knee on steep sections of the descent, so that the muscles
around the knees will then take the impact instead of the knee
joints.

If possible (usually on a substantial step down where the knee is
necessarily straight) try to land on your toes and ball of the foot
first, so that the ankle muscles provide shock absorbency.

I'd suggest, though, that you give your muscles a chance >to do the
job first before going down the pole route.

Oh, and I am not a doctor. :-)

Agreed.
I've also noticed that a lot of folks who get this problem tend to
land with rigid legs rather than using the thigh muscles as shock
absorbers. I'd suggest you work on strengthening those muscles by
doing frequent shorter and less stenuous walks, and increase the
duration and difficulty as your strength improves - and do it before
you knacker your knee joints.
--
Rod

My real address is rodtheweedygardeneratmyweedyisp
Just remove the weedy bits
and transplant the appropriate symbol at.

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:04:46 GMT, "John"

[email protected] said:

Well, first inroads into walking today....was not expecting the pain in both
knees that I experienced during descent.
How do I deal with this and what is the prevention.
Help Appreciated.

Commiserations. I had dreadful knee pain descending with any weight
for years, but it finally went away (touch wood) when I took up
running. Presumably the running must have strengthened my knees.

Do be careful with it: I pressed on with very bad knee pain the first
time I (tried) to do the Coast to Coast, and had to drop out half way
through and consult an orthpaedic surgeon. I think he said the problem
was chondromalacia patella, and I think that's fairly common.

If you do a lot of walking then it may be worth going to see a physio
and asking for some exercises to strengthen the muscles round your
knees. As others have said, poles can help a lot too, as long as you
use them properly.

Best of luck!

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

"Is our children learning?"
g.w.AT [guessthisbit].com

Rod Craddock said:

"Colin MacDonald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Unless you have known knee or joint problems, I'd imagine the pain
comes from the repeated impact of landing your full weight on your
heels through straight legs, and there's basically no shock
absorbency
in a straight leg so the impact hits your knees first.

So, suggestions:

If you are a vigorous descender then maybe slowing down somewhat
will
help, since a lighter step down should reduce the impact by making
the
weight transfer from back to front leg smoother.

Also, you can try to turn slightly sideways and introduce a slight
bend
in the knee on steep sections of the descent, so that the muscles
around the knees will then take the impact instead of the knee
joints.

If possible (usually on a substantial step down where the knee is
necessarily straight) try to land on your toes and ball of the foot
first, so that the ankle muscles provide shock absorbency.

I'd suggest, though, that you give your muscles a chance >to do the
job first before going down the pole route.

Oh, and I am not a doctor. :-)

Agreed.
I've also noticed that a lot of folks who get this problem tend to
land with rigid legs rather than using the thigh muscles as shock
absorbers. I'd suggest you work on strengthening those muscles by
doing frequent shorter and less stenuous walks

I'd have to agree, to a point.

after a youth full of outdoor pursuits, a prolonged period of post youth apathy,
pubs, driving cars & riding motorcycles I took up MTB cycling and semi intense
weight training but it didn't prepare me for my return to hill / fell / dale walking as
my joints had conditioned themselves to low impact activities whereas hill or fell
walking is definately high impact on the old knee joints. and the old ankles, too.
and the hips ! but my heels & feet were actually the most painfull.

to the OP, stick with it. it's both rewarding and good for you, however much it seems
to hurt initially, you will adapt. I am not a real doctor, btw !

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:04:46 GMT, "John"

[email protected] said:

Well, first inroads into walking today....was not expecting the pain in
both
knees that I experienced during descent.
How do I de

<<<snip ....>>>>

or you could be having my experience...

(Briefly) - got keen on walking (Wales mostly to start with... ) but always
had knee pain, especially descending: Ho hummm, grin 'n bear it.. Kept
going - got to have done most of Welsh 2000s & some of Lakes... .. pain
persisted then used to take pain killers BEFORE going out on't hill ...

After a few years when it got seriously bad (well, I'm a man, we can't take
pain, right ??) went to quack thinking 'twas time for operation...
Happened he was smart. He said, well, we'll X-ray them but try this leg
exercise. (*** see below).

X-rays came back showing worn joints and thinner than usual cartilidg-y bit
between bones (probably because of weight, 17 stone, and much exercise over
the years).. BUT the Leg exercise tightened up MY ligaments (might not work
4 U ) and with 1 week I found I could run (!!!) 4 the 1st time in 10 years.
(Yup, everything else hurt but the knees were OK!!!)

I also discovered "Superfeet" (but get them fitted properly - and beware
severe "acclimatisation" problems maybe over a month... ).

Since then notwithstanding the usual abuse of the old body I've clocked up
some more hills (e.g. 150+ Munros...). Hurts again more 'n more (57yrs old
now..) but much less than in the past.

** Exercise that worked for me may not for U. If problem persists see a
GOOD doctor (Yes, I know, but then the issue of how to find a good doctor
has challenged many more illustrious than me for years....)

Oh, OK. Exercise: Stand upright: Lean bum on firm surface (eg kitchen work
surface). Hold 1 leg slightly in front of vertical (say 20 degrees),
straight, foot @ 90 deg. Gently raise & lower leg a bit 10 times (say 9
inches: ), whilst holdog leg muscles tight.. Then do same 'tother leg.
Repeat later in 't day. Worked 4 me!!!

PS (West Highland joke) What is at the end of Mallaig???

......

.....

.....

Ma foot....

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:04:46 GMT, "John"

[email protected] said:

Well, first inroads into walking today....was not expecting the pain in both
knees that I experienced during descent.
How do I deal with this and what is the prevention.
Help Appreciated.
John.

I may as well add my twopence 'alfpenny worth (which is similar to
what several people have already said).

I used to get terrible knee pain going downhill. Mainly the right
knee, IIRC. I can remember crying with pain coming down the concrete
path from the two aerials on the hill near the Ponderosa cafe N of
Llangollen.

Eventually I went to my GP who referred me to a (NHS) physiotherapist.
I went along for my appointment and she spent quite a long time
bending my legs and feet various ways and getting me to walk, bend,
stretch etc. I can remember her spending ages bending and pressing on
my left knee. After a few minutes I said "Erm, it's the other leg
that's got the problem, actually". "That's what YOU think!", she
said, "THIS is your week knee. You're probably getting pain in the
other leg because of all the over-compensating you do."

She gave me some strengthening and balancing exercises to do. This
was the first time I realised that I fall over if I stand on one leg
and close my eyes! I did the exercises three times a day for a while
and did start to feel some improvement in the strength of my legs. I
should still do them every day but, well, you know how it is.

I now take much shorter steps when I walk downhill, or on rough
ground, and I don't put my weight down on my foot until I'm sure I
have a solid platform. I also try to zig-zag down (and up) hills
rather than rushing at the steepest bit.

It must've been 10 years since I saw the Physio and I now only get
knee pain if I really have worn myself out. For example, coming down
the Llanberis Path hurt (but I had just done Ben Nevis and Scafell
Pike). Usually my knees are pain free but they do get a bit "twitchy"
when tired.

Oh, one more thing - Superfeet! I /think/ they work for me.

Judith

Judith said:

This was the first time I realised that I fall over if I stand on one leg
and close my eyes!

Do you fall backwards standing on two legs with your eyes closed?
Serious question by the way.

Angus.

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:41:48 +0100, Angus <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This was the first time I realised that I fall over if I stand on one leg
and close my eyes!

Do you fall backwards standing on two legs with your eyes closed?
Serious question by the way.

The things I do for medical research......

<stands up and closes eyes>

With my arms at my side (but with shoulders forward if you see what I
mean) I can balance perfectly well with my eyes shut.

With my arms folded, and my eyes shut, I could feel my knees locking
and unlocking as they stopped me leaning forwards and backwards. I
didn't actually "fall" as I can tell once I'm approaching the point of
no return!

By the way, I'm half way down a bottle of Ruddles County, so these
results may be void.

Judith

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:41:48 +0100, Angus <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Judith said:

This was the first time I realised that I fall over if I stand on one leg
and close my eyes!

Do you fall backwards standing on two legs with your eyes closed?
Serious question by the way.

<fx: CRUNCH>

<fx: muffled snivelling>

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

"Is our children learning?"
g.w.AT [guessthisbit].com

Many thanks for your replies.
I must say I am very impressed with the help and support that you guys have
provided....

So the answer is leg strengthening and conditioning exercises....after some
trolling the web it would seems that this is quite common, would you agree
that, with no evidence to point to a joint/ligament problem (medical
condition) that the pain could be tolerated until the muscles are strong
enough to correctly support the knee assembly.

The initial use of poles sounds a very good idea, along with landing soft
knee'd, ensuring alignment of the knee/feet and generally distributing the
shock/load better.

My first walk was the Wrekin, a leisurely 40mins ascent 35mins
descent....nice walk....the pain began within 10mins of starting descent.

A quick Google on Superfeet come back with Blue & Green capsule....If I can
sort these knees out the I will be purchasing boots...do the Superfeet
inserts require shoes to be a larger size, remove one pair of socks etc....

John.

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:41:48 +0100, Angus <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Judith said:

This was the first time I realised that I fall over if I stand on one leg
and close my eyes!

Do you fall backwards standing on two legs with your eyes closed?
Serious question by the way.

<fx: CRUNCH>

<fx: muffled snivelling>

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

"Is our children learning?"
g.w.AT [guessthisbit].com

Angus said:

Do you fall backwards standing on two legs with your eyes closed?
Serious question by the way.

Just tried it... I don't fall over, but I do notice a /lot/ more
compensation going on in my ankles, with side-to-side being the obvious
problem. I'm better on my right leg than my left.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

John said:

A quick Google on Superfeet come back with Blue & Green capsule....If I can
sort these knees out the I will be purchasing boots...do the Superfeet
inserts require shoes to be a larger size, remove one pair of socks etc....

Same size, take out the existing footbeds (most walking and running
footwear has removable footbeds) and direct replacement. Blue for
running shoes, green otherwise is the usual setup.

Don't rush to get boots until you're sure you need them. I much prefer
walking in shoes and sandals these days, having spent years in boots
because I assumed you needed boots... Boots will do just about
everything so are a fair default choice, but if you're /not/ doing just
about everything they're heavier (and accordingly less comfortable and
more tiring over a day) and often more expensive.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

John said:

A quick Google on Superfeet come back with Blue & Green capsule....If I can
sort these knees out the I will be purchasing boots...do the Superfeet
inserts require shoes to be a larger size, remove one pair of socks etc....

Same size, take out the existing footbeds (most walking and running
footwear has removable footbeds) and direct replacement. Blue for
running shoes, green otherwise is the usual setup.

If you're sure you're buying boots too, John, it would be best to get
both the boots and the Superfeets at the same time so that you have
the best chance of getting something that fits properly and is
comfortable. There's a network of retailers qualified to fit them. I
don't have the link here, but will try to remember to post it when I
get home unless someone else does in the meantime.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

John, I agree, this is a fine group of people, filled with experience
and even wisdom!
I did not know about superfeet. I like that. a lot.
I used to have descent knee pain. Started on a too rapid descent of
Kaibab trail in Grand Canyon, trying to keep pace with a faster and
more experienced group of hikers. Not knowing it, I tore up ligaments
or stretched them out and the pain only got worse when I was hiking out
of the canyon the next day through hard packed snow. Too young and
invincible and GREEN to know better, I just soaked up and put some ice
on both knees for a while and ignored them and Hiking for a while.
When I wised up and went to a DR. I was too naive and did not have
the sense to go to a SPORTS trained physician. It took a long time to
work out ways to strengthen those muscles. At that time I was walking
up and down hills on a morning and afternoon commute to the train that
took me to work.

That is already too much about my tale of woe. I commend you for
finding this abundant source of advice here.

you wrote:
The initial use of poles sounds a very good idea, along with landing
soft
knee'd, ensuring alignment of the knee/feet and generally distributing
the
shock/load better.

I agree. Strengthen, shift weight, (dont close your eyes and fall over
🙂 ) and I too recommend using poles to shift weight and balance.

Happy healing and Happy hiking. Now the only time my knees give me
trouble if if I go too fast or twist while boulder hopping.

www.mytrekkingpoles.com might be able to help too

"John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, first inroads into walking today....was not expecting the pain in
both knees that I experienced during descent.
How do I deal with this and what is the prevention.
Help Appreciated.
John.

Had this problem a lot when I started walking. My cure was to wear
elasticated knee support bandages [as found in all good chemist shops] when
I knew the terrain was going to involve a lot of [steepish] ascents &
descents.

At other times I didn't use them and, as other posters have said, my knees
eventually became stronger and now I have no bandages and no pain.

Stick with it

Roger C

Well I walked twice during the week. The 2nd time, at least I knew what the
pain was...as a result is was easily to control (still took longer to get
down).
By being conscious of my footing, placement, knee joint impact and gate (and
500mg of a NSAID) I managed it.
Will try again next week and see how it goes.
My goal is to be competent and fit enough to walk Bennevis July next year
(aint going to happen unless I can overcome the knee issues).
Thanks for your support guys, much needed.
John.

"Roger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, first inroads into walking today....was not expecting the pain in
both knees that I experienced during descent.
How do I deal with this and what is the prevention.
Help Appreciated.
John.

Had this problem a lot when I started walking. My cure was to wear
elasticated knee support bandages [as found in all good chemist shops]
when I knew the terrain was going to involve a lot of [steepish] ascents &
descents.

At other times I didn't use them and, as other posters have said, my knees
eventually became stronger and now I have no bandages and no pain.

Stick with it

Roger C