Descending, Sherwin, Liggit, Motorcycles

Michael Press said:

Sherwin and Liggit said that an expert bicycle descender on an
Alpine pass can traverse the descent faster than a motorcycle, but
said absolutely nothing else. Is this so? Why is this so (if it
is)? The motorcycle can accelerate faster out of the turns. I have
seen photographs of motorcycles leaning from the vertical more
than 45 degrees. Puzzling. I think S&L are telling a story.

As was told to me...

do not ruin a good story with reality.

it might be true and it's a good story.

therefore... fact.

D

Quoted message said:

As was told to me...

do not ruin a good story with reality.

it might be true and it's a good story.

therefore... fact.

D

Because you can shift the center of gravity side-to-side much quicker on a
bicycle than a motorcycle, on very steep downhill serpentine grades with
braking only, this is probably true.

In article <[email hidden]>,

David Ferguson said:

Michael Press said:

Sherwin and Liggit said that an expert bicycle descender on an
Alpine pass can traverse the descent faster than a motorcycle, but
said absolutely nothing else. Is this so? Why is this so (if it
is)? The motorcycle can accelerate faster out of the turns. I have
seen photographs of motorcycles leaning from the vertical more
than 45 degrees. Puzzling. I think S&L are telling a story.

As was told to me...

do not ruin a good story with reality.

it might be true and it's a good story.

therefore... fact.

Thesis, antithesis...synthesis.

A fast motorcycle with an expert rider will definitely outrun a bicycle
down virtually any road, and I would go so far as to say for sure down
the roads we see on the Tour now. They can corner a little harder than
bicycles (big, grippy tires), and they have more power, so if nothing
else ripping between hairpins would secure the advantage easily.

That said, riding a motorcycle downhill fast is tricky, in the same way
that ascending fast is relatively easy. There's less margin for error,
for some gravity-assisted reasons (the braking zones are longer,
cornering gets trickier).

That said, the apt comparison is not Valentino Rossi on a GP1 bike
versus Paolo Savoldelli on a Trek, it's the motorcyclists Paul and Phil
were probably thinking of, to wit, the ones that follow the tour around.

Those motorcycles are generally touring or sport-touring models,
generally being ridden two-up, often with the passenger facing backwards
or otherwise occupied by tasks incompatible with holding on or weight
distribution considerations. They're being ridden by riders who, while
expert, are not likely to be world-class or going all-out. Under those
circumstances, a cyclist who is already very good and motivated to take
chances might out-descend a sensibly-ridden motorcycle. Actually, the
bicycle might even be able to brake better, given the substantial weight
difference between the two vehicles.

In short, it's probably fair to say that a cyclist skilled in descending
could give the Tour motorcycles a lot to think about.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sherwin and Liggit said that an expert bicycle descender on an
Alpine pass can traverse the descent faster than a motorcycle, but
said absolutely nothing else. Is this so? Why is this so (if it
is)? The motorcycle can accelerate faster out of the turns. I have
seen photographs of motorcycles leaning from the vertical more
than 45 degrees. Puzzling. I think S&L are telling a story.

--
Michael Press

I believe that they both get a little over excited at times.

I wonder what the highest figure that Paul has ever given for the maximum
speed that sprinters hit going for the line at the end of a flat stage.

I believe what he said was that the bicyclist were getting around the
corners faster than the motorcycles following the race. He did not
specifically say that the cyclists could get down the hill faster than them.
Obviously, they don't or we would not have any video of the decent.

Ken

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

David Ferguson said:

Michael Press said:

Sherwin and Liggit said that an expert bicycle descender on an
Alpine pass can traverse the descent faster than a motorcycle, but
said absolutely nothing else. Is this so? Why is this so (if it
is)? The motorcycle can accelerate faster out of the turns. I have
seen photographs of motorcycles leaning from the vertical more
than 45 degrees. Puzzling. I think S&L are telling a story.

As was told to me...

do not ruin a good story with reality.

it might be true and it's a good story.

therefore... fact.

Thesis, antithesis...synthesis.

A fast motorcycle with an expert rider will definitely outrun a bicycle
down virtually any road, and I would go so far as to say for sure down
the roads we see on the Tour now. They can corner a little harder than
bicycles (big, grippy tires), and they have more power, so if nothing
else ripping between hairpins would secure the advantage easily.

That said, riding a motorcycle downhill fast is tricky, in the same way
that ascending fast is relatively easy. There's less margin for error,
for some gravity-assisted reasons (the braking zones are longer,
cornering gets trickier).

That said, the apt comparison is not Valentino Rossi on a GP1 bike
versus Paolo Savoldelli on a Trek, it's the motorcyclists Paul and Phil
were probably thinking of, to wit, the ones that follow the tour around.

Those motorcycles are generally touring or sport-touring models,
generally being ridden two-up, often with the passenger facing backwards
or otherwise occupied by tasks incompatible with holding on or weight
distribution considerations. They're being ridden by riders who, while
expert, are not likely to be world-class or going all-out. Under those
circumstances, a cyclist who is already very good and motivated to take
chances might out-descend a sensibly-ridden motorcycle. Actually, the
bicycle might even be able to brake better, given the substantial weight
difference between the two vehicles.

In short, it's probably fair to say that a cyclist skilled in descending
could give the Tour motorcycles a lot to think about.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sherwin and Liggit said that an expert bicycle descender on an
Alpine pass can traverse the descent faster than a motorcycle, but
said absolutely nothing else. Is this so? Why is this so (if it
is)? The motorcycle can accelerate faster out of the turns. I have
seen photographs of motorcycles leaning from the vertical more
than 45 degrees. Puzzling. I think S&L are telling a story.

--
Michael Press

An observant sort might have noted that immediately after they offered that
slice of wisdom, the camera bike, which had somehow been managing to stay
with the rider whose Amazing Descent they were hyping, passed said rider and
pulled away. Complete with video camera toting passenger onboard.

For any of you F1 fans out there, Phil and Paul give Murray Walker a real
run for his money... ;-)

Michael Press said:

Sherwin and Liggit said that an expert bicycle descender on an
Alpine pass can traverse the descent faster than a motorcycle, but
said absolutely nothing else. Is this so? Why is this so (if it
is)? The motorcycle can accelerate faster out of the turns. I have
seen photographs of motorcycles leaning from the vertical more
than 45 degrees. Puzzling. I think S&L are telling a story.

--
Michael Press

They are referring to the big heavy two person camera bikes, not any
motorcycle...

Steve Blankenship said:

For any of you F1 fans out there, Phil and Paul give Murray Walker a real
run for his money... ;-)

Yes, they mention LANCE'S name as many times per minute as what Murray
Walker used to mention Damon Hill's.

Michael Press said:

Sherwin and Liggit said that an expert bicycle descender on an
Alpine pass can traverse the descent faster than a motorcycle, but
said absolutely nothing else. Is this so? Why is this so (if it
is)? The motorcycle can accelerate faster out of the turns. I have
seen photographs of motorcycles leaning from the vertical more
than 45 degrees. Puzzling. I think S&L are telling a story.

Put Valentino Rossi on a motorbike and even the top descenders like
Savoldelli will be left behind.

Put a cameraman on the back of Rossi's bike waving himself about and the
story will be different; and although the motorbike riders covering the TdF
are good they are not nearly as good as Rossi.

Peter

"Peter Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Put Valentino Rossi on a motorbike and even the top descenders like
Savoldelli will be left behind.

Put a cameraman on the back of Rossi's bike waving himself about and the
story will be different

That's why they'd put'em behind Mamola.

Peter Allen a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Put a cameraman on the back of Rossi's bike waving himself about and the
story will be different; and although the motorbike riders covering the TdF
are good they are not nearly as good as Rossi.

When I went to watch the Criterium International last year, a bunch
of them were staying at the hotel and we got to hear their
conversation.
Basically, they had spent all night at the local discotheque trying
to get some and one of them actually managed it. This guy had a couple
of hours sleep before the day's stage, actually less since it
was also the day the clocks are set ahead to daylight time.
I'm not sure Valentino
Rossi ever raced under those difficult conditions.

Quoted message said:

From what I picked up from the TV coverage, at least one of the

motorbike
drivers was a former Paris/Dakar racer.

-ilan

Quoted message said:

When I went to watch the Criterium International last year, a bunch
of them were staying at the hotel and we got to hear their
conversation.
Basically, they had spent all night at the local discotheque trying
to get some and one of them actually managed it. This guy had a couple
of hours sleep before the day's stage, actually less since it
was also the day the clocks are set ahead to daylight time.
I'm not sure Valentino
Rossi ever raced under those difficult conditions.

I'll bet a Barry Sheene autograph that he has. You must be the guy that
goes home from a party at 11:00 pm. It's pretty common knowledge that
you're not really hurting the day after a long night. It's two days
after that's the killer.

Carl Sundquist said:

It's pretty common knowledge that
you're not really hurting the day after a long night. It's two days
after that's the killer.

That common knowledge evidently escaped the notice of my body. Never
heard that "two days after" thing except for pain from car accidents
and such.

R

Carl Sundquist a écrit :

Quoted message said:

I'll bet a Barry Sheene autograph that he has. You must be the guy that
goes home from a party at 11:00 pm.

Actually, I did pretty much the same thing.

It's pretty common knowledge that

Quoted message said:

you're not really hurting the day after a long night. It's two days
after that's the killer.

That's why you only do it on the last night before the last stage.

-ilan

Quoted message said:

It's pretty common knowledge that

Quoted message said:

you're not really hurting the day after a long night. It's two days
after that's the killer.

That's why you only do it on the last night before the last stage.

There are stages in motorcycle GP racing?

Carl Sundquist a écrit :

Quoted message said:

There are stages in motorcycle GP racing?

How would you do the podium ceremony without 'em?

-ilan

<[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Carl Sundquist a écrit :

Quoted message said:

There are stages in motorcycle GP racing?

How would you do the podium ceremony without 'em?

Put the tallest guy in the middle.

Peter Allen said:

Put Valentino Rossi on a motorbike and even the top descenders like
Savoldelli will be left behind.

But isn't he one of the guys who sayd the Isle of Man is too dangerous
to race on? And the TT courses there are much kinedr than your average
TdF mountain stage.
I don't think he would risk the Alps & Pyrenees. Even Jalabert prefers
to sit at the finish, as the on bike commentaries terrified him.
All the best
Dan Gregory

Dan Gregory said:

Peter Allen said:

Put Valentino Rossi on a motorbike and even the top descenders like
Savoldelli will be left behind.

But isn't he one of the guys who sayd the Isle of Man is too dangerous
to race on? And the TT courses there are much kinedr than your average
TdF mountain stage.
I don't think he would risk the Alps & Pyrenees. Even Jalabert prefers
to sit at the finish, as the on bike commentaries terrified him.
All the best
Dan Gregory

Hey Dan
Isle of Man is the last survivor. I'd love to see Brno come back, but
it's not going to happen. Today's equipment and circuits are really
about the bike, not rider skill and daring. It's bad for TV if you kill
you're cash cows. I agree that that bicycle racers take much bigger
risks today than Moto GP types.
Mike The Bike was better than Lance will ever be!
Bill C