Denmead Hampshire - Traffic Calming Facilities

Mark said:

I'm canvassing for the views of cyclists that use the roads of Denmead, in
particular the traffic calming measures consisting of the pedestrian
refuges and the adjacent short cycle lanes.

For example; Do the lanes help or hinder? Are they wide or long enough? Do
you feel safer? Any other suggestions or improvements?

The width of the restriction is too small to allow any vehicle to try to
pass a cycle in there -- look at the nearside wheel track right down the
middle of the cycle lane. Therefore despite the apparent presence of a
cycle lane any sane cyclist should be riding right in the centre of the
restriction to make it clear that there is insufficient room to pass.

Because every 4-wheeled vehicle has no choice but to transgress the cycle
lane, the council is promoting the idea that it is permitted to drive in
them. I know this one's not mandatory, but the council should be
encouraging the observation of them, not the reverse.

Mike

Mike Causer said:

The width of the restriction is too small to allow any vehicle to try to
pass a cycle in there -- look at the nearside wheel track right down the
middle of the cycle lane. Therefore despite the apparent presence of a
cycle lane any sane cyclist should be riding right in the centre of the
restriction to make it clear that there is insufficient room to pass.

Because every 4-wheeled vehicle has no choice but to transgress the cycle
lane, the council is promoting the idea that it is permitted to drive in
them. I know this one's not mandatory, but the council should be
encouraging the observation of them, not the reverse.

I'm not sure I agree. The cycle lanes are a good width meaning that a
cyclist can be pretty close to the centre of the restriction whilst
still being within the lane - or at least far enough out to prevent
attempts at overtaking. It 'should' be clear to drivers encroaching on
the lane that cyclists have priority and have every right to use all of
it.

Pinch points around pedestrian refuges are always tricky but this looks
like a reasonable way of dealing with it. Of course, the proof of the
pudding.... I could change my mind.

MikeF

Mark said:

I'm canvassing for the views of cyclists that use the roads of Denmead,
in particular the traffic calming measures consisting of the pedestrian
refuges and the adjacent short cycle lanes.

That's absolutely bloody daft.

The presence of the lane markings at that point will encourage drivers
to assume there is enough space to have two lanes through the
restricted width, and make them more likely to try to overtake
cyclists alongside the bollards, rather than less.

It's good to see the cycle lanes are a decent width, but I don't think
they will do any good at all. Because they are so short, I reckon a
lot of drivers won't actually recognise them as cycle lanes.

Ideally, artificial road narrowings should not restrict the available
width of the carriageway to less than the space needed for a car to
safely overtake a cyclist. If it's felt that so much space will not
have the intended effect of slowing motorists down, put bollards
between the cycle lane and the main traffic lane - leaving cyclists
enough guaranteed room, and restricting the space available to other
traffic.

--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________

Not used these, but:
- as a cyclist the pinch point is too narrow, the cycle lanes are far
too short, and I'm not sure what the dashed line is meant to achieve
- as a driver, esp. one wanting to turn left, it looks like information
overload
Why not cover the whole surface in red paint and make it (for a good
distance either side of the junction) a 20mph zone? And isn't a pinch
point adjacent to a junction a bit daft anyway - how do you turn left
with an articulated HGV?

Stevie D said:

have the intended effect of slowing motorists down, put bollards
between the cycle lane and the main traffic lane - leaving cyclists
enough guaranteed room, and restricting the space available to other
traffic.

My local authority has done that, then put give-way lines across the
end of the cycle lane.

In normal use, they have no effect - the two traffic streams are
parallel and there's nothing to give way to. However, if anyone ever
gets hit in the vicinity, you can guarantee the weasel insurance gits
will get out of most (or any) payment on the grounds that the cyclist
didn't give way at the give way lines.

Personally, although the cycle bit is straight, direct, wide enough
etc. I don't use it, but leave the cycle lane to go through in the
main lane, returning to the cycle lane once through the pinch point.
However, I have no qualms about dominating the lane through the pinch.

It's symptomatic of the attitude in highways - even when there's
nothing to give way to, and no earthly reason for it, they seek to
obstruct, delay and endanger the cyclist.

regards, Ian MSith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

Mark said:

Hi,

I'm canvassing for the views of cyclists that use the roads of Denmead,
in particular the traffic calming measures consisting of the pedestrian
refuges and the adjacent short cycle lanes.

Excellent. And excellent work on your part to get HCC to experiment
(they are notoriously risk averse when it comes to road schemes).

To my mind, this attempts to make it clear that drivers should expect
cyclists in the middle of the lane here - and encourages less
experienced cyclists to take the correct position.

If I can be bothered, I'll try and get up there and ride the course.

PS. Note the reflective "keep left" bollard. The internally illuminated
ones are being phased out in Hampshire to reduce electricity
comsumption and therefore C02 and cost.

Not Responding said:

Excellent. And excellent work on your part to get HCC to experiment
(they are notoriously risk averse when it comes to road schemes).

To my mind, this attempts to make it clear that drivers should expect
cyclists in the middle of the lane here - and encourages less
experienced cyclists to take the correct position.

And you're a councillor? That scares me.

The lanes look like a recipe for increased motorist/cyclist conflict to
me. I certainly wouldn't ride in them, but then they're to the left of
the position that I would usually take through such a pinch point anyway.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Following on from Mark's message. . .

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I'm canvassing for the views of cyclists that use the roads of Denmead,
in particular the traffic calming measures consisting of the pedestrian
refuges and the adjacent short cycle lanes.

Firstly a technical point : The red will soon be oily brown and not half
as outstanding as it looks at the moment.

I ask myself "Does it make it easier for people to do the right thing?"
Since the 'wrong thing' is a squeeze by an overtaking vehicle, how does
it make that more difficult? I don't think it does.

Does it encourage cyclists to move out to the centre of the lane (the
right thing) - No. But it might give them confidence that a car behind
will be a bit more patient.

But hold on! A cyclist might say to themselves "Aha a bit of road
specially for me - hooray - the cars have to leave me alone" - Except
that it's clear that cars ARE EXPECTED TO VIOLATE this 'sanctuary'. So
the whole thing is a rather naughty fraud.

The 'race to overtake before the pinch' is now brought back a few yards.
For assertives like me that's not a problem but it means I have to be
OUTSIDE THE LANE before the actual pinch to stop a swerver-overtaker
trying to nip in just in front of me (they can use part of the opposing
lane.) For the less well trained they suddenly find a swerver in front
of them IN THEIR LANE.

The county council thinking is, I suppose, that the dotted edge of the
cycle lane is a 'give way'(to cyclists). But give way markings _go
across_ a road not along, so I don't think this will work very well.

Question to ask County Council: If they expect the lane to be violated
anyway then why not make it full width (nothing's lost) and then the
'Give way dashed lines' on the start of the cycle lane will be more
meaningful. If they say "Oh we could never do /that/ then you say "tell
me again then what's the difference between that and your current
experiment".

PS I hate lanes anyway, but if you're going to install them then setting
them up to be intentionally violated is the height of irresponsibility.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the e-commerce business came to a .
[email hidden]
www.eminent.demon.co.uk - Lots for cyclists

On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:12:56 +0100,

Mark said:

Hi,

I'm canvassing for the views of cyclists that use the roads of Denmead,
in particular the traffic calming measures consisting of the pedestrian
refuges and the adjacent short cycle lanes.

For example; Do the lanes help or hinder? Are they wide or long enough?
Do you feel safer? Any other suggestions or improvements?

Feedback will be used by the CTC in their consultation with Hampshire
County Council.

You can download a photograph (until 4 Aug 06) if this helps:

http://www.tradebit.com/get/819458

It's just wide enough that a cyclist can prevent motorists overtaking in
the pinch point (which I assume is the intent).

However, it's not long enough. Cyclists need to take up the correct
position before the cycle lane starts.

Better, IMO, would have been to put the cycle lane down the middle of
the car lane to make it absolutely obvious to everybody that the cyclist
should be in the middle here. A wide cycle lane could have been used at
the start of this that then funnelled cyclists away from the kerb as
they approached the pinch point. (It should not funnel them back as it
will then (inevitably) leave them cycling too close to the kerb.)

As it stands I suspect it's a recipe for disaster though. Cyclists who
would otherwise take the middle of the lane may now stay just inside the
cycle lane. And motorists will be oblivious to the fact that they need
to slow down for the cyclist - after all, there's a separate car and
cycle lane and who ever has heard of a lane that you can't actually
drive in.

There's a road near here when you are travelling from Hatch End into
Pinner which I had the misfortune to cycle along once a few years ago.
They've painted very thin cycle lanes through the pinch points they've
constructed and I was forced off the road by cars deliberately driving
at me though the pinch points because I'd taken the middle of the main
lane. (and I was travelling at 20mph+ in a 30mph limit). Needless to
say, I've never been back there.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

Mark said:

I'm canvassing for the views of cyclists that use the roads of Denmead,
in particular the traffic calming measures consisting of the pedestrian
refuges and the adjacent short cycle lanes.

Not ridden through these but I have used those at Colden Common.

My view is it would be better to highlight the whole pinch point in
coloured tarmac and leave the cyclist to determine the best line
through. The purpose of cycle lanes is to segregate and that is not
possible here.

Cycle lane colouring should not start at the kerb but at least
300-400mm off the road edge as no cyclist can be expected to use this
space.

I guess I would roll though on the outside of the 'N' & 'D', on the
inside edge of the tyre marks.

Why does the road edge line stop half way through?

rgds,

Ian

Danny Colyer wrote on 29/07/2006 10:08 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Not Responding said:

Excellent. And excellent work on your part to get HCC to experiment
(they are notoriously risk averse when it comes to road schemes).

To my mind, this attempts to make it clear that drivers should expect
cyclists in the middle of the lane here - and encourages less
experienced cyclists to take the correct position.

And you're a councillor? That scares me.

The lanes look like a recipe for increased motorist/cyclist conflict to
me. I certainly wouldn't ride in them, but then they're to the left of
the position that I would usually take through such a pinch point anyway.

I agree. HCC have a fetish for using cyclists to calm traffic with
pinch points and fail to understand the issue when it is explained to
them. When I contacted them about another such farcility I was told
"The traffic advisory leaflet TAL 01/97 to which you refer identifies
the perception that cyclists can be concerned about pinch points
however it is clear that this is a perceived danger rather than actual."
while totally ignoring that the perceived danger is felt by the
cyclists and leads to a significant reduction in cycling (as explained
in another TAL)

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Tim Woodall wrote on 29/07/2006 11:48 +0100:

Quoted message said:

There's a road near here when you are travelling from Hatch End into
Pinner which I had the misfortune to cycle along once a few years ago.
They've painted very thin cycle lanes through the pinch points they've
constructed and I was forced off the road by cars deliberately driving
at me though the pinch points because I'd taken the middle of the main
lane. (and I was travelling at 20mph+ in a 30mph limit). Needless to
say, I've never been back there.

Better than one (now removed) in Royston, Herts where the narrow cycle
lanes stopped at each pinch point because the road was too narrow!

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Tim Woodall suggested:

Quoted message said:

Better, IMO, would have been to put the cycle lane down the middle of
the car lane to make it absolutely obvious to everybody that the cyclist
should be in the middle here. A wide cycle lane could have been used at
the start of this that then funnelled cyclists away from the kerb as
they approached the pinch point.

At first, I thought that was a great idea. Having slept on it, though,
I can see it causing untrained cyclists to move to the right (just
because they're following the lane) without performing a lifesaver.

I don't have a better suggestion, except perhaps to avoid the use of
cycle lanes altogether. I'm reluctant to suggest avoiding the use of
pinch points, because as a ped there are times when I find pedestrian
refuges very useful.

--
Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

Quoted message said:

Mark said:

I'm canvassing for the views of cyclists that use the roads of Denmead,
in particular the traffic calming measures consisting of the pedestrian
refuges and the adjacent short cycle lanes.

Not ridden through these but I have used those at Colden Common.

My view is it would be better to highlight the whole pinch point in
coloured tarmac and leave the cyclist to determine the best line
through. The purpose of cycle lanes is to segregate and that is not
possible here.

Cycle lane colouring should not start at the kerb but at least
300-400mm off the road edge as no cyclist can be expected to use this
space.

I guess I would roll though on the outside of the 'N' & 'D', on the
inside edge of the tyre marks.

Why does the road edge line stop half way through?

I believe this is a yellow parking restriction line. I will confirm and
let you if not.

Your, and everyone responses so far have been constructive and well
received.

Thanks for your time.

Quoted message said:

rgds,

Ian

Not Responding said:

Mark said:

Hi,

I'm canvassing for the views of cyclists that use the roads of Denmead,
in particular the traffic calming measures consisting of the pedestrian
refuges and the adjacent short cycle lanes.

Excellent. And excellent work on your part to get HCC to experiment
(they are notoriously risk averse when it comes to road schemes).

To my mind, this attempts to make it clear that drivers should expect
cyclists in the middle of the lane here - and encourages less
experienced cyclists to take the correct position.

If I can be bothered, I'll try and get up there and ride the course.

PS. Note the reflective "keep left" bollard. The internally illuminated
ones are being phased out in Hampshire to reduce electricity
comsumption and therefore C02 and cost.

Thanks for your comments.

If you do manage to get to Denmead, I'd be interested to read your views.

Mark said:

Hi,

I'm canvassing for the views of cyclists that use the roads of Denmead,
in particular the traffic calming measures consisting of the pedestrian
refuges and the adjacent short cycle lanes.

For example; Do the lanes help or hinder? Are they wide or long enough?
Do you feel safer? Any other suggestions or improvements?

Feedback will be used by the CTC in their consultation with Hampshire
County Council.

You can download a photograph (until 4 Aug 06) if this helps:

http://www.tradebit.com/get/819458

Many Thanks,

Mark.

It been refreshing to post a question and get thoughtful and considerate
replies. (It's not something you see on some other groups.)

Thanks to all that have posted so far.

Tony Raven said:

Danny Colyer wrote on 29/07/2006 10:08 +0100:

Quoted message said:

The lanes look like a recipe for increased motorist/cyclist conflict
to me. I certainly wouldn't ride in them, but then they're to the
left of the position that I would usually take through such a pinch
point anyway.

I agree. HCC have a fetish for using cyclists to calm traffic with
pinch points and fail to understand the issue when it is explained to
them. When I contacted them about another such farcility I was told
"The traffic advisory leaflet TAL 01/97 to which you refer identifies
the perception that cyclists can be concerned about pinch points
however it is clear that this is a perceived danger rather than actual."
while totally ignoring that the perceived danger is felt by the
cyclists and leads to a significant reduction in cycling (as explained
in another TAL)

To me, this is the heart of the 'cycling is dangerous' argument.
People try cycling, get frightened, conclude that it really is too
dangerous, and give up.

All road users feel threatened by what's happening behind them.
Probably it's inbuilt instinct from ancestors stalked by tigers. It
affects drivers too, who seem to have far more travel moving out into
a lane going the same way than one the other way.

IMO, the things that make cycling frightening are places where drivers
have no space to overtake cyclists safely. Whether the result is
intimidation or unsafe overtaking, it's not pleasant.

Yet road engineers could solve this by following a few very simple
rules in their designs, e.g.

- roads with near continuous traffic, speed limit 30 or more, must
have enough width for cyclists to be overtaken both ways at once

- roads with no overtaking opportunities for long distances must have
enforced speed limits of 30 or less

etc.

For me, wide single carriageway roads with little or no parking give
good journey times and a pleasant ride because I do not have to worry
about controlling overtaking. On back street routes, apart from the
extra junctions, you can expect some problems with drivers who can't pass.

Colin McKenzie

--
On average in Britain, you're more likely to get a head injury walking
a mile than cycling it.
So why aren't we all exhorted to wear walking helmets?

Tony Raven said:

Tim Woodall wrote on 29/07/2006 11:48 +0100:

Quoted message said:

There's a road near here when you are travelling from Hatch End into
Pinner which I had the misfortune to cycle along once a few years ago.
They've painted very thin cycle lanes through the pinch points they've
constructed and I was forced off the road by cars deliberately driving
at me though the pinch points because I'd taken the middle of the main
lane. (and I was travelling at 20mph+ in a 30mph limit). Needless to
say, I've never been back there.

Better than one (now removed) in Royston, Herts where the narrow cycle
lanes stopped at each pinch point because the road was too narrow!

Plenty of them left elsewhere, sadly. I've been trying to get funding
to remove a particularly bad one for years now. Most cyclists just
carry on in a straight line - onto the narrow pavement.

Colin McKenzie

--
On average in Britain, you're more likely to get a head injury walking
a mile than cycling it.
So why aren't we all exhorted to wear walking helmets?

Danny Colyer said the following on 29/07/2006 10:08:

Quoted message said:

And you're a councillor? That scares me.

I assumed "Not Responding" was writing tongue in cheek. I sincerely
hope so, anyway.

If nothing else, that "facility" is just a waste of council tax payer's
money. Some motorists complain that cyclists get all these facilities
for free, where they have to pay road tax, but what benefit is there
here for cyclists?

Can you imagine doing that by every traffic island?

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/