General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Definitions - not necessarily apt such

Started by Peter F. · · Last activity · 7 posts · 600 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
11 February 2004
Last activity
17 February 2004
Original author
Peter F.
Posts
7
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
600
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–7 of 7
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. If you thought evolution was hard to define try "complexity"!

    I sometimes hear (or see) certain people voicing the mantra: "Evolution is not directional".

    Depending on one's attitude and approach to defining Evolution, it is (or isn't).

    Even if one think of evolution as "the filling of configuration spaces for mutable self-replicable
    things limited 'only' by other already filled forms of self-replicability and by astronomical and
    geophysical factors", there is still a dimension to evolution that goes in the direction of
    increasingly complex self-replicable mutable patterns.

    Here is a recipe for an open (-minded and open to be improved upon) synthesis that I don't feel
    uncomfortable loosely wrapping my mind around:

    Take the bloated (but rather irreproachable given that appropriate meanings are ascribed to the
    words: population, heritable, and generations) approximate definition:

    "Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many
    generations."

    Weed-out some surperfluous words and add one generalizing plural form, and boil it down to read:

    Evolution is heritable changes in populations over generations.

    Put it into a complementary frame partly made of "the filling of configuration spaces for mutable
    self-replicable things, limited by already filled forms of self-replicability and by astronomical
    and geophysical factors" which in turn partly contains a directional dimension, and call the entire
    frame the Evolutionary Pressure Totality.

    We then end up with a definition that looks something like:

    "Evolution à la EPT is heritable changes in populations over generations in context of that our
    Universe's on the whole increasing entropy is defied by increasingly less widespread instances of
    increasing complexity of emerging patterns."
    -------

    That was the easy part!

    Here is an attempt to sort out some subsumed definitions.

    Any "pattern" (whether observed or philosophically implied) is a perceivable (or conceivable)
    regularity of some dialectic interactivity.

    Dialectics refers to the recognition of Nature's polarities or opposites, and that, between these,
    different 'regularities (or cycles) of change are being naturally maintained - not the least as far
    as evolutionary developments, and evolved patterns, are concerned.

    Of course, changes can be both constructive and destructive, but as far as my EPT definition of
    Evolution is concerned they are constructive.

    The Yin and Yang symbol can be seen to represent the observation of "dialectical interactions"
    in Nature.
    -----

    How I am trying to deconfuse myself about the difference in meaning between "order <=> chaos" and
    "complexity <=> simplicity":

    A pattern and/or process can be most chaotic (consist of most irregular or unpredictable
    interactions) or be most ordered (consist of most regular interactions).

    Another measure of "a pattern/process" is its complexity.

    However, it is difficult for me to be visually and conceptually clear about what I vaguely feel is
    the difference in meaning between complexity<=>simplicity and order<=>chaos.

    A most chaotic pattern has the least possible complexity. But a most ordered pattern (a most regular
    interactivity) can be more or less complex.

    In respect of a recognizable biological process (pattern), its "degree of complexity" can be thought
    of as the *intricasy* of the ordered interactivity within it. In that definition-preparing sense,
    complexity (intricasy) can be seen increase in proportion to the number of interactions and
    interacting elements required to carry out a biologic function; And, the choice of defining function
    can be both as simple and as summarizing as all that an individual does, with some regularity within
    its life-time, to sustain itself - *whether or not* it thereby also eventually reproduces.

    Perhaps in a flat or open universe the difference in meaning between between simplicity?complexity
    and order?chaos can be likened to a pair of rail-road tracks; closely parallel and connected with
    sleepers but never meeting; And, from where the tracks begun being built, the degree of order?chaos
    (represented by one of the tracks) is at its maximum (min entropy), whereas the
    "simplicity?complexity track" was at a minimum degree of complexity.

    In a closed universe I can only come up with a diagram where the two tracks curve around back to the
    line of origin of this doubtful dichotomy; the simplicity?complexity track being either maximized to
    close towards the bitter end or long since utterly simplified, and the order?chaos track having more
    crudely transitted from maximum overall order, through maximum overall entropy, and back again to
    maximum order.
    %-?

    Entropy increase = diminishing quantity of energy in forms useful for Evolution (à la EPT).

    Life or "living entities" = anything from "energy moderating/metabolizing macro-molecules" capable
    of a self-replication that results in replicas with some heritable structural and functional
    (functural) variation.

    Populations = from one to any number of living entities (usually

    existing in some biospherical locality

    Ecological Population Totality = living entities of different species and

    indirectly interdependent life-styles.

    "Struggle for suvival" = the by natural selection encouraged propensity of living entities to in
    various ways strive to obtain (including, to within and between populations compete for) limited
    resources required for their relatively persistent existence ultimately (but not only) through their
    replication or reproduction.

    Natural Selection (NatSel) = The fact that the different ongoing interactivities between living
    entities and/or other aspects of their environment results in differently realized or fulfilled (or
    in many cases simply not realized) "configuration-space potentials".

    "Configuration space potentials" is here meant in a completely generalized sense: Known *and
    unknown* mathematical probabilities for any pattern - e.g. mental (or psychophysical) to fundamental
    matter (fundamental particles) or biophysiological states (e.g. a beating heart) - to exist.

    (The probability of a beating heart existing is 1 %->; but we can't be as sure about such existences
    in the future %-\.)

    [A broad analogy: Consider particle accelerators and their bubble-chamber attachments. 1. Not even
    one particle of a kind hypothetically predicted to regularly result after a certain collisions
    within a certain energy range arises! IOW the theory that predicted this non-event is therefore
    wrong - there is no such particle available *even* in configuration space. In accordance with
    theory, more or less short lived particles result after their 'parental' (accelerated pre-smash)
    particles (matter-particles) have actually been accelarated and smashed together. (Virtual particles
    can be realted to the notion that biological configuration space contains many genotypes that never
    will get born because they are that far from being viable.)]

    Here is one perhaps important-to-recognize result of that *certain* categorizable selection
    pressures have tended to pressure in parallel in phylogeny (or if not throughout phylogeny so at
    least in the multi-cellular, and nervous system proliferating, era of the phylogeny of fauna):-

    AEVASIVE neurological, psychological and behavioral characteristics of animals! AEVASIVE
    characteristics is a feature of fauna in general. However, it is by far most strongly manifest in
    the wide and elaborate range of AEVASIVE aspects/characteristics of the human genophenotype.
    =========

    Darwinian evolution (by heretable variation and natural selection) defined with quotations (enclosed
    by double quation-marks) from Darwin himself:

    The trait-building (genophenotyping) outcome of the probability that "in the great and complex
    battle of life" [during the long and often 'richly parallel' existence of numerous successive
    generations of concurrently living individuals ('parallel' was especially but not only meant in a
    sense relevant to

    including heritable variation of internal functions) are in some way more useful to the reproductive
    success of individual carriers of such variations, than are other heritable variations concurrently
    carried by other, closely similar and likewise as if survival-seeking and hence often rivaling,
    individuals.
    ----------------

    The concEPTualized philosophical facets of what naturally selects:

    Evolutionary pressures (EP) selects. And EP is suitably sectioned (septalized) into Opportunity type
    EP (OTEP) and Adversity type EP (ATEP).

    OTEP = The once mere potential emergence of self-replicating living entities; ecological or
    sociaoeconomical niche-spaces not yet exploited
    (e.g. near at hand by not yet realized survival and reproduction promoting co-operative interactions
    between individuals); potential steps or pathways, in (e.g. biochemical) configuration space,
    toward new means to the ultimate effect of increasing

    The path of patterning towards the OTEP facet of the ambi-advantageously adaptive phylogenetic
    pressures and steps of functional biochemical patterning that preceded the emergence of Music, being
    one small example.

    The other EPTly recognized facet of the phylogeny of Music - Music as an example of an "ambi-
    advantageously evolved" AEVASIVE capability - is ATEP of "[censored] type".

    Apropos "[censored]": Specified more or less complex examples of situations within (by) which some
    genophenotypes would have tended to be naturally selected for (ahead of, or at the expense or active
    exclusion of, others) in the process of evolution (in phylogeny) can be generalized and covered by
    types or suitably named categories for such naturally selective situation.

    [[censored] (short for "selectiveHibernation imploring type situations"😉 is one such category.]

    At least it can to the limited extent that _I_ have been (and is) interested in constructing such
    categories. ;-)

    P

  2. Peter F. said:

    If you thought evolution was hard to define try "complexity"!

    I sometimes hear (or see) certain people voicing the mantra: "Evolution is not directional".

    Depending on one's attitude and approach to defining Evolution, it is (or isn't).

    If you put an ice cube on a smooth surface at the base of a wall, as it melts the water will run in
    every available direction equally. That's not really directional in any meaningful sense.

    Complexity doesn't necessarily give an evolutionary advantage, we still have more bacteria than
    anything else.

    --Jeff

    Quoted message said:

    Even if one think of evolution as "the filling of configuration spaces for mutable self-replicable
    things limited 'only' by other already filled forms of self-replicability and by astronomical and
    geophysical factors", there is still a dimension to evolution that goes in the direction of
    increasingly complex self-replicable mutable patterns.

    [moderator's note: about 225 - that's TWO BLEEDIN' HUNDRED - lines deleted. Come ON, people! The old
    rule of thumb is, if your response is shorter than the quoted material, that is A Bad Thing. Clip
    the unnecessary verbiage - JAH]

    --
    Ho, ho, ho, hee, hee, hee and a couple of ha, ha, has; That's how we pass the day away, in the merry
    old land of Oz.

  3. << If you put an ice cube on a smooth surface at the base of a wall, as it melts the water will run
    in every available direction equally. That's not really directional in any meaningful sense. >>

    But it's all running down due to gravity. Again you have forces that fight against randomness. I
    don't think you can discount them when you talk of randomness in nature.

  4. "Jeffrey Turner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Peter F. said:

    If you thought evolution was hard to define try "complexity"!

    I sometimes hear (or see) certain people voicing the mantra: "Evolution is not directional".

    Depending on one's attitude and approach to defining Evolution, it is


    (or

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    isn't).

    If you put an ice cube on a smooth surface at the base of a wall, as it melts the water will run
    in every available direction equally. That's not really directional in any meaningful sense.

    Complexity doesn't necessarily give an evolutionary advantage, we still have more bacteria than
    anything else.

    How about an ice-pack on your head? I never intended anyone to associate what I wrote with some
    weired notion that 'increases of complexity having some kind of absolute selective advantage'.

    However, knowing a fair amount of the sometimes desperately AEVASIVE character of the Actention
    Selection System of human individuals, I am guaranteed not to be too surprised about most people's
    reactions. However that does not mean I am not feeling somewhat disappointed because of my own
    AEVASIVE desire for didactic successes (of course as a means of procuring Nobel Prizes and an
    ultimate, didactically dictatorial, position of world dominance). %-}

    P (acronymist)

  5. Peter F. said:
    Jeffrey Turner said:
    Peter F. said:

    If you thought evolution was hard to define try "complexity"!

    I sometimes hear (or see) certain people voicing the mantra: "Evolution is not directional".

    Depending on one's attitude and approach to defining Evolution, it is


    (or

    Quoted message said:

    isn't).

    If you put an ice cube on a smooth surface at the base of a wall, as it melts the water will run
    in every available direction equally. That's not really directional in any meaningful sense.

    Complexity doesn't necessarily give an evolutionary advantage, we still have more bacteria than
    anything else.

    How about an ice-pack on your head? I never intended anyone to associate what I wrote with some
    weired notion that 'increases of complexity having some kind of absolute selective advantage'.

    So then something else is producing complexity, not evolution.

    Quoted message said:

    However, knowing a fair amount of the sometimes desperately AEVASIVE character of the Actention
    Selection System of human individuals, I am guaranteed not to be too surprised about most people's
    reactions. However that does not mean I am not feeling somewhat disappointed because of my own
    AEVASIVE desire for didactic successes (of course as a means of procuring Nobel Prizes and an
    ultimate, didactically dictatorial, position of world dominance). %-}

    Maybe you'd do better if you wrote in English.

    --Jeff

    --
    Ho, ho, ho, hee, hee, hee and a couple of ha, ha, has; That's how we pass the day away, in the merry
    old land of Oz.

  6. "Peter F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    However, knowing a fair amount of the sometimes desperately AEVASIVE character of the Actention
    Selection System of human individuals, I am guaranteed not to be too surprised about most people's
    reactions. However that does not mean I am not feeling somewhat disappointed because of my own
    AEVASIVE desire for didactic successes (of course as a means of procuring Nobel Prizes and an
    ultimate, didactically dictatorial, position of world dominance). %-}

    P (acronymist)

    "Acronymist", ey? Is there a philosophy behind this? I'm intrigued.

    It reminds me of someone a friend told me about, who wanted to reduce the entire contents of a book
    down to a single word by defining it at the top of an enormous hierarchy of acronyms. I suppose it
    would be an interesting project if you have the time, but I'm quite sure the hierarchy would be
    completely unintelligible. In the case of your posts, we virtually have to learn another language to
    be able to understand you. Don't get me wrong - I think your eccentric contributions make the world
    a more interesting place. I'm just wondering what you're up to.

    H.

    ---
    Like-minds don't notice shared mistakes. Talk to someone else.

  7. "Huck Turner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Peter F." <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    "Acronymist", ey? Is there a philosophy behind this? I'm intrigued.

    It reminds me of someone a friend told me about, who wanted to reduce the entire contents of a
    book down to a single word by defining it at the top of an enormous hierarchy of acronyms. I
    suppose it would be an interesting project if you have the time, but I'm quite sure the hierarchy
    would be completely unintelligible. In the case of your posts, we virtually have to learn another
    language to be able to understand you. Don't get me wrong - I think your eccentric contributions
    make the world a more interesting place. I'm just wondering what you're up to.

    You could have said "..what I am up to down-under." :-)

    Shanging the English language, of course - like everybody else is doing. %-)

    A little more seriously:

    I was mightily influenced (perhaps in the late sixties or early seventies) by the nuclear arms-race
    shaming acronym for Mutual(ly) Assured Destruction. I partly therefore eventually embarked on barking-
    out and marking my (in that vein made concEPTually made tangible TO ME) insights for all to see.
    %-}

    If you were to become more privy to knowing precisely what I am on about, your therewith marginally
    different repertoire of philosophical focuses of actention may not allow you to remain as positively
    disposed any more - UNLESS you are inclined to enjoy a fair amount of SEPTIC humour. ;-)

    Without my SEPTIC humored sem_antics I myself might not have been able to dredge-up and keep my EPT
    insights concEPTually afloat (in working memory) long enough to remember what they in all their
    underlying seriousness are about.

    Roughly summarized "EPT" formulation represents my, by means of contrived concepts conserved (or
    almost in a 'universal wave functionish' sense kept from collapsing), insights into mainly but not
    only how brains work and evolved, especially in respect of what traditionally is referred to as
    Neurosis and closely related behavioural and psychological dynamics.

    I refer to these largely by help of the acronym AEVASIVE.

    P

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.