Decline Press?

In article <[email hidden]>,

locker said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

locker said:

The Crow wrote:
> Hi.
> What is the importance of the decline bench press in
particular?
> Is it vital? I've found a bench I like, at a good price,

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it
> only does incline to flat, it doesn't decline. Is this a
major
> disadvantage? It also says that it will go to 'nearly'

ninety

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> degrees for military press. I wonder how far off ninety it
is, and
> how much of an issue it might be if there's not a perfect
right
> angle in the seating. Any advice welcome.

Just put plates under one end of the bench to make it

decline.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is always helpful to work a muscle from different angles.

Why?

Because the triceps (and other muscles) are tensioned
differently at different angles.

No, you don't. You have different leverages at different angles. Muscle
tension is a matter of motor units and rate coding - firing frequency of
the motor unit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The

Quoted message said:

decline uses more lat so you can usually lift a bit more.

Work

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

through the entire range; dips, decline, pushups w/weight,

flat,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

incline, overhead press.

I like seated overheads but if I use a belt, standing

overheads

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

don't hurt my back.

You are using the belt as a crutch.

No I'm not; I'm using it as support. Using a belt and wraps in
the squat is not a crutch. Same is true in the OHP.

Quoted message said:

You'd be better off learning to
lift properly and develop strong core muscles.

Bull [censored], son. I know how to lift weights. 😉

Tell me about core muscles; I powerlift and hold records in my
state.

Son? I'm 47. I've got provincial records in both powerlifting and
olympic lifting here in Canada. And still got some Canadian national
records in powerlifting, I think. You can do a search for Keith Hobman
AND squat and see what you come up with. But that is beside the point.

If you need the belt to do overhead lifts without hurting your back it
is a crutch. Or a support. A crutch is a support, for that matter.

In powerlifting the belt and wraps (and suits) are used to lift more
weight. You can still squat without hurting yourself if you are lifting
correctly. You just can't squat as much. Ditto with the other lifts.

So I stand by what I said. If you need a support to lift a weight
overhead you are lifting incorrectly. What happens if you have to lift a
child overhead? Gonna run out and grab your lever belt? I doubt it.

You should learn to lift without the belt. Then you may want to add it
in for near-maximal attempts in your sport, but belts and wraps should
never be a substitute for good technique.

--
Keith

For about the last year I have worn my belt all the time, for all
standing lifts that are not warmups. I used to think the belt was a
crutch, but I don't now. I know I can lift in good form with it or
without it if I had too. And I don't know if it is because of smarter
lifting or the belt, but I havn't had any back injuries in the last
year, and I have been getting lighter and lifting heavier. I think of
the belt now like a seat belt in the car, you don't need it to drive
but it gives you some peace of mind and could really help out if
something went wrong.

--Falooley

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

locker said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"locker" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> The Crow wrote:
>> Hi.
>> What is the importance of the decline bench press in
> particular?
>> Is it vital? I've found a bench I like, at a good price,

but it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> only does incline to flat, it doesn't decline. Is this a
> major
>> disadvantage? It also says that it will go to 'nearly'

ninety

Quoted message said:

>> degrees for military press. I wonder how far off ninety

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> is, and
>> how much of an issue it might be if there's not a perfect
> right
>> angle in the seating. Any advice welcome.
>
> Just put plates under one end of the bench to make it

decline.

Quoted message said:

> It is always helpful to work a muscle from different

angles.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why?

Because the triceps (and other muscles) are tensioned
differently at different angles.

No, you don't. You have different leverages at different

angles.

Quoted message said:

Muscle tension is a matter of motor units and rate coding -

firing

Quoted message said:

frequency of the motor unit.

And position.

The three muscles in the triceps tension differently depending
on how the arm is rotated in relation to the shoulder. Muscles
are worked differently in different positions. That's why we do
different exercises for the same muscle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The
> decline uses more lat so you can usually lift a bit more.

Work

Quoted message said:

> through the entire range; dips, decline, pushups w/weight,

flat,

Quoted message said:

> incline, overhead press.
>
> I like seated overheads but if I use a belt, standing

overheads

Quoted message said:

> don't hurt my back.

You are using the belt as a crutch.

No I'm not; I'm using it as support. Using a belt and wraps

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the squat is not a crutch. Same is true in the OHP.

Quoted message said:

You'd be better off learning to
lift properly and develop strong core muscles.

Bull [censored], son. I know how to lift weights. 😉

Tell me about core muscles; I powerlift and hold records in

my

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

state.

Son? I'm 47.

And I am older than you, son. Don't make comments like, 'I
should improve my core lifts' when you have absolutely no idea
who I am. I know how much you can lift; I can lift more.

Quoted message said:

I've got provincial records in both powerlifting and
olympic lifting here in Canada.

I am stronger than you. I have seen your posts here. Having
records doesn't give you the right to make stupid comments. I
still have records on the books from 1997.

Quoted message said:

And still got some Canadian national
records in powerlifting, I think. You can do a search for

Keith

Quoted message said:

Hobman AND squat and see what you come up with.

No.

Quoted message said:

But that is beside
the point.

If you need the belt to do overhead lifts without hurting your

back

Quoted message said:

it is a crutch. Or a support. A crutch is a support, for that
matter.

Gives you something to push your abs against therefore you lift
more weight. It also keeps my back from hurting when I do the
overhead press. 🙂

Quoted message said:

In powerlifting the belt and wraps (and suits) are used to

lift more

Quoted message said:

weight.

Helps me lift more weight in the OHP also.

Quoted message said:

You can still squat without hurting yourself if you are
lifting correctly.

Yeah, I do it all the time.

Quoted message said:

You just can't squat as much. Ditto with the
other lifts.

I know all this. LOL

Quoted message said:

So I stand by what I said. If you need a support to lift a

weight

Quoted message said:

overhead you are lifting incorrectly.

Quoted message said:

What happens if you have to
lift a child overhead? Gonna run out and grab your lever belt?

I

Quoted message said:

doubt it.

You should learn to lift without the belt. Then you may want

to add

Quoted message said:

it in for near-maximal attempts in your sport, but belts and

wraps

Quoted message said:

should never be a substitute for good technique.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I was a powerlifter with
state records. I have been lifting weights for over 40 years. I
have been powerlifting for 13 years. I lift in the 275# class.

Sometimes my back hurts when doing the overhead press, sometimes
it doesn't. If it hurts I use a belt. I might take some time
off. 🙂

Sometimes my knees hurt, I deal with it in different ways.

Welcome to powerlifting.

locker

In article <[email hidden]>,

locker said:

Hobbes said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

locker said:

Hobbes wrote:
> In article <[email hidden]>,
> "locker" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> The Crow wrote:
>>> Hi.
>>> What is the importance of the decline bench press in
>> particular?
>>> Is it vital? I've found a bench I like, at a good price,

but it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> only does incline to flat, it doesn't decline. Is this a
>> major
>>> disadvantage? It also says that it will go to 'nearly'
ninety
>>> degrees for military press. I wonder how far off ninety

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> is, and
>>> how much of an issue it might be if there's not a perfect
>> right
>>> angle in the seating. Any advice welcome.
>>
>> Just put plates under one end of the bench to make it
decline.
>> It is always helpful to work a muscle from different

angles.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> Why?

Because the triceps (and other muscles) are tensioned
differently at different angles.

No, you don't. You have different leverages at different

angles.

Quoted message said:

Muscle tension is a matter of motor units and rate coding -

firing

Quoted message said:

frequency of the motor unit.

And position.

The three muscles in the triceps tension differently depending
on how the arm is rotated in relation to the shoulder. Muscles
are worked differently in different positions. That's why we do
different exercises for the same muscle.

We're arguing semantics here. But muscles don't 'tension' different. You
can recruit different motor units. Overall muscle tension is a result of
recruitment and rate coding. A muscle fiber either fires or it doesn't.
It is called the 'all-or-nothing' principle. So you could argue
recruitment patterns change and you would be right. Leverages change.
But muscle doesn't 'tension' differently.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> The
>> decline uses more lat so you can usually lift a bit more.
Work
>> through the entire range; dips, decline, pushups w/weight,
flat,
>> incline, overhead press.
>>
>> I like seated overheads but if I use a belt, standing
overheads
>> don't hurt my back.
>
> You are using the belt as a crutch.

No I'm not; I'm using it as support. Using a belt and wraps

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the squat is not a crutch. Same is true in the OHP.

> You'd be better off learning to
> lift properly and develop strong core muscles.

Bull [censored], son. I know how to lift weights. 😉

Tell me about core muscles; I powerlift and hold records in

my

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

state.

Son? I'm 47.

And I am older than you, son. Don't make comments like, 'I
should improve my core lifts' when you have absolutely no idea
who I am. I know how much you can lift; I can lift more.

Yeah, pretty much everyone on the internet lifts more than I can. How
much can I lift? How much can you lift?

Squat.
Bench.
Deadlift
Clean and Jerk.
Press.

You may want to add in gear used, etc., on your lifts to have a real
comparison. There is obviously going to be a huge difference if you lift
in a fed which allows high squats and canvas suits.

I used a Titan single poly suit and shirt and Inzer knee wraps.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've got provincial records in both powerlifting and
olympic lifting here in Canada.

I am stronger than you. I have seen your posts here. Having
records doesn't give you the right to make stupid comments. I
still have records on the books from 1997.

Quoted message said:

And still got some Canadian national
records in powerlifting, I think. You can do a search for

Keith

Quoted message said:

Hobman AND squat and see what you come up with.

No.

Quoted message said:

But that is beside
the point.

If you need the belt to do overhead lifts without hurting your

back

Quoted message said:

it is a crutch. Or a support. A crutch is a support, for that
matter.

Gives you something to push your abs against therefore you lift
more weight. It also keeps my back from hurting when I do the
overhead press. 🙂

Quoted message said:

In powerlifting the belt and wraps (and suits) are used to

lift more

Quoted message said:

weight.

Helps me lift more weight in the OHP also.

Quoted message said:

You can still squat without hurting yourself if you are
lifting correctly.

Yeah, I do it all the time.

Quoted message said:

You just can't squat as much. Ditto with the
other lifts.

I know all this. LOL

Quoted message said:

So I stand by what I said. If you need a support to lift a

weight

Quoted message said:

overhead you are lifting incorrectly.

Quoted message said:

What happens if you have to
lift a child overhead? Gonna run out and grab your lever belt?

I

Quoted message said:

doubt it.

You should learn to lift without the belt. Then you may want

to add

Quoted message said:

it in for near-maximal attempts in your sport, but belts and

wraps

Quoted message said:

should never be a substitute for good technique.

Maybe you missed the part where I said I was a powerlifter with
state records. I have been lifting weights for over 40 years. I
have been powerlifting for 13 years. I lift in the 275# class.

Sometimes my back hurts when doing the overhead press, sometimes
it doesn't. If it hurts I use a belt. I might take some time
off. 🙂

Sometimes my knees hurt, I deal with it in different ways.

Welcome to powerlifting.

I'm an ex-powerlifter. I prefer olympic lifting. Less gear - more
athletic. I don't really care to be slow and strong.

But, back to the point. You said, "I like seated overheads but if I use
a belt, standing overheads don't hurt my back."

Now you are saying they 'sometimes' hurt my back.

My point is that if you hurt your back you are doing something wrong.
Either you are using poor technique, you have a weak core or you are
using too much weight. You shouldn't have to use a belt to do presses.

If you are a 275 lb powerlifter I accept the fact your core is plenty
strong. So that basically leaves poor technique. Using too much weight,
of course, can cause poor technique.

As for being stronger - enter an olympic lifting competition and show me
the numbers.

:^)

--
Keith

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

For about the last year I have worn my belt all the time, for all
standing lifts that are not warmups. I used to think the belt was a
crutch, but I don't now. I know I can lift in good form with it or
without it if I had too. And I don't know if it is because of smarter
lifting or the belt, but I havn't had any back injuries in the last
year, and I have been getting lighter and lifting heavier. I think of
the belt now like a seat belt in the car, you don't need it to drive
but it gives you some peace of mind and could really help out if
something went wrong.

I've got nothing against belts, but they aren't necessary for overhead
pressing. You can create intra-abdominal pressure without a belt.

If you prefer to use a belt that is just fine. But sure as fate if you
tell someone too they'll buy a cheap belt and then cinch the sucker up
as tight as they can - which isn't a good idea.

Locker was correct when he 'pushed' his abs against the belt. Create
intra-abdominal pressure. A martial artist or boxer does exactly the
same thing without a belt.

--
Keith

Got no more for ya.

In article <[email hidden]>,

locker said:

Got no more for ya.

Fair enough. Nice to have a big powerlifter here, tho.

Must be why you are one stubborn dude.

:^)

--
Keith

"locker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Got no more for ya.

You could stop being anonymous. Even my puny lifts are a matter of
public record. Who are you?

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

zoo said:

The Crow said:

But we still haven't got to the bottom of whether the decline press is a
seriously valuable part of a workout or not? People always say you should
vary your pressing angles, incline, decline, all that, and yet many benches
are flat to incline, with no option to decline, so how important is it for
the bench press? Thanks again.

Most of what I've read says decline bench is unimportant and
unneccesary. I agree. I don't do them. I don't have any sources or
reasoning for you, sorry. I've read different opinions regarding flat
and incline benches. So, I go by what I feel. I love flat dumbbell
presses so I do them, and I do my incline at about a 30 degree angle or
less, to switch it up. 30 or less feels right. I don't like 45 degree
so I don't do it. The shoulders are worked too much on that angle.

However, I was thinking of something last night. Dips are supposedly
great for the chest. If you picture them, aren't they similar to a
decline bench press? Hmmm...

zoo

And a leg press is similar to a squat...but they are NOT the same.

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

spodosaurus said:

Quoted message said:

However, I was thinking of something last night. Dips are supposedly
great for the chest. If you picture them, aren't they similar to a
decline bench press? Hmmm...

zoo

Quoted message said:

And a leg press is similar to a squat...but they are NOT the same.

Right. That's why I said that dips and decline bench are similiar.
Didn't say "same". The movement is in the same general direction,
moving down below the chest. I was just wondering if perhaps decline
bench might have some merit after all, being that they are slightly
similiar to dips. Obviously they don't generate the same tension and
force as dips. Not sure. Just wondering. Maybe I'll try them because to
be honest I've never either of them.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Hobbes said:

Yeah, pretty much everyone on the internet lifts more than I can. How
much can I lift? How much can you lift?

Everyone on the 'net is 250lb hard, can bench at leat 600lbs, and can
fight like Ken Shamrock. Yet, when cornered into proving these figures,
they seem to slink away. Funny how that works.

--
Will Brink @ http://www.brinkzone.com/

WillBrink said:

Hobbes said:

Yeah, pretty much everyone on the internet lifts more than I can.

I wouldn't bet on that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How much can I lift?

You tell me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How much can you lift?

I've got the important lifts down pat:

a) I can lift a spoon to my mouth.
b) I can lift the toilet seat.
c) I can lift myself onto the treadmill.
d) I can lift an empty Olympic bar in a variety of movements which
closely resemble exercising. Sometimes I even add a few plates.

Quoted message said:

Everyone on the 'net is 250lb hard, can bench at leat 600lbs, and can
fight like Ken Shamrock. Yet, when cornered into proving these figures,
they seem to slink away.

Hmmm. And how tall did you say you were exactly? Because *almost* 5'7"
is on the vague side, Brink.

Quoted message said:

Funny how that works.

Ain't it, though?

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

I don't know if anyone has seen this before, but according to this
interesting article from Bodybuilding.com, decline db presses are the
best chest exercises! I wouldn't have thought that. They used an
electromyography to measure electricity generated by muscles during an
exercise. The percent of muscle fibers being used can be determined.
How accurate this is anyones guess. The article also lists the best
exercise in other categories.

Chest

* Decline dumbbell bench press - 93%
* Incline dumbbell press - 91%
* Decline bench press - 89%
* Flat dumbbell bench press - 87%
* Flat barbell bench press - 85%

http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/mark4.htm

My favorite chest exercise is the flat dumbbell press. I can keep the
best form and use the heaviest weights. It feels right, and good. I do
inclines because they are needed but they simply don't feel as good. I
never do declines, but maybe I'll try them soon. The differences in
percent according to these numbers is small anyway so I don't think
it's a big deal.

zoo

In article <[email hidden]>,

zoo said:

I don't know if anyone has seen this before, but according to this
interesting article from Bodybuilding.com, decline db presses are the
best chest exercises! I wouldn't have thought that. They used an
electromyography to measure electricity generated by muscles during an
exercise. The percent of muscle fibers being used can be determined.
How accurate this is anyones guess. The article also lists the best
exercise in other categories.

Chest

* Decline dumbbell bench press - 93%
* Incline dumbbell press - 91%
* Decline bench press - 89%
* Flat dumbbell bench press - 87%
* Flat barbell bench press - 85%

http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/mark4.htm

My favorite chest exercise is the flat dumbbell press. I can keep the
best form and use the heaviest weights. It feels right, and good. I do
inclines because they are needed but they simply don't feel as good. I
never do declines, but maybe I'll try them soon. The differences in
percent according to these numbers is small anyway so I don't think
it's a big deal.

zoo

Percent of what?

Pectoral muscle fiber? Pec/delt/triceps?

And do they just test one person and assume everyone responds in exactly
the same way? Is the skill of the person factored into the equation at
all. This smacks of really, really crappy research.

--
Keith

Hobbes said:

Percent of what?

Pectoral muscle fiber? Pec/delt/triceps?

And do they just test one person and assume everyone responds in exactly
the same way? Is the skill of the person factored into the equation at
all. This smacks of really, really crappy research.

It does. The articles attitude is way overconfident in it's approach
and conclusions. I guess that during the exercise, electrical impulses
are being generated by the muscle. Whichever generates the most is the
best exercise. Very vague.

"Two collectors called electrodes are placed on the surface of the skin
above the muscle being tested. A computer determines the underlying
electrical difference. These differences may indicate excessive muscle
tension. For our purposes, the differences will also determine the
percent of muscle fibers being stressed"

Quoted message said:

From that statement we can see this isn't a controlled scientific

experiment. But anyway, interesting for what it is...

zoo said:

Hobbes said:

Percent of what?

I checked the sources on the bottom of the page but they're dead
links... Ya know what? This whole friggin thing is a scam. I'm calling
mulder. Is he still alive or did he kill himself.

zoo

In article <[email hidden]>, "zoo"

Quoted message said:

Hobbes said:

Percent of what?

Pectoral muscle fiber? Pec/delt/triceps?

And do they just test one person and assume everyone responds in exactly
the same way? Is the skill of the person factored into the equation at
all. This smacks of really, really crappy research.

It does. The articles attitude is way overconfident in it's approach
and conclusions. I guess that during the exercise, electrical impulses
are being generated by the muscle. Whichever generates the most is the
best exercise. Very vague.

"Two collectors called electrodes are placed on the surface of the skin
above the muscle being tested. A computer determines the underlying
electrical difference. These differences may indicate excessive muscle
tension. For our purposes, the differences will also determine the
percent of muscle fibers being stressed"

Quoted message said:

From that statement we can see this isn't a controlled scientific

experiment. But anyway, interesting for what it is...

True that.

--
Keith