Deal with devil, get horns?

I've knows a couple folks who have gotten bikes from bikesdirect.com
and been very happy. The prices are nearly impossible to beat and most
people find dealing with them very easy. He's sort of right (even
though his attitude sucks) in that head tube should really not factor
into your sizing decisions, but I agree with you that you should get
all the details possible. You should try to email bikesdirect instead
of Mercier - they have stores in TX that carry the bikes, and I imagine
they'd go take a measurement for you if you are that interested.

-a

Quoted message said:

I've knows a couple folks who have gotten bikes from bikesdirect.com
and been very happy. The prices are nearly impossible to beat and most
people find dealing with them very easy. He's sort of right (even
though his attitude sucks) in that head tube should really not factor
into your sizing decisions

For someone with non-traditional fit issues (herniated discs, or anything
else that might limit flexibility), the height of the head tube, along with
the allowable spacing, or stack height above the head tube (the tallest
position you can install a stem) have a *great* deal to do with whether a
bike may, or may not, fit. And this has nothing to do with whether a frame
is "conventional" or "compact."

When Trek made the move from 2.5cm to 4cm of uncut steer tube underneath the
stem, it made a huge difference in how easily we could size people to bikes.
And not just people with specific flexibility issues either.

For what it's worth, if we have someone flying in (or driving a long
distance) to buy a bike from us (with our high-end Trek Madones, this is not
so unusual anymore), and we're trying to mock up a fit before they arrive,
we ask for the height from ground to top of handlebar, height from ground to
top of saddle, and the distance from the center of the seatpost to the
center of the handlebar. If someone's comfortable on their present bike,
with those measurements we at least know if we can get someone in the
ballpark. I would think that to be a minimum of what someone should go for
when actually purchasing through the mail... an answer to the question- can
the bike be set up similarly to what I'm already comfortable with? If
someone cannot adequately answer that question, the purchase is risky.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Andrew F Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've knows a couple folks who have gotten bikes from bikesdirect.com
and been very happy. The prices are nearly impossible to beat and most
people find dealing with them very easy. He's sort of right (even
though his attitude sucks) in that head tube should really not factor
into your sizing decisions, but I agree with you that you should get
all the details possible. You should try to email bikesdirect instead
of Mercier - they have stores in TX that carry the bikes, and I imagine
they'd go take a measurement for you if you are that interested.

-a

Good point Mike - I glossed over the Disc issue. I guess I'm just
used to being flexible that I can make most any bike "fit". In my
case, the only bike I had problems with had a long head tube so I had a
hard time getting low enough.

So - I take it back. Mail order works fine if you looking a deal, but
you aren't likely to get any sort of fit like you would with an LBS.

Scott Gordo said:

So I was poking around the ol' interweb one day and found myself
presented with a very nicely priced ultegra 10 bike by the new
incarnation of the Mercier brand. I've got an apt full of steel framed
rigs but, like most, for the right price I'll consider expanding my
horizons.
I was looking over their sizing charts and they have a few sizes in my
range, a 58, 60, and 62. I happen to have frames in all three sizes,
and like/dislike qualities of each for different reasons. (I also have
mtbs and cruisers in different sizes.) And, you know, the seat tube's
c-c isn't an end-all, especially these days with integrated headsets
and all that jive.
I've also got 4 bulging and/or herniated discs in my lower back, so I'm
pretty particular about my fit.
As I was looking over their sizing charts, I noticed that there was no
measurement for the head tube. I figured, just for giggles, that I'd
drop them an email and see what I could find out. The following is my
exchange:

----- Original Message -----
From: scogo
To: [email hidden]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 1:08 PM
Subject: head tube lengths?

Hello, I'm looking for information on the head tube length for a
Mercier Draco Al Road in sizes 60 and 62 and any additional info you
could send me that's not on
http://www.cyclesmercier.com/geometry_al.html.
Thanks.

-----Original Message-----
From: CyclesMercier [[email hidden]]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 4:29 PM
To: scogo
Subject: Re: head tube lengths?

We do not publish head tube lengths as they do not pertain to our
traditional geometry bicycles

CyclesMercier

----- Original Message -----
From: scogo
To: CyclesMercier
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: head tube lengths?

What does that mean? You can't give me the length of the head tube?
For a 60 or 62?

-----Original Message-----
From: CyclesMercier [[email hidden]]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 10:12 AM
To: scogo
Subject: Re: head tube lengths?

Dear Sir,

Our head tube lengths are proprietary and do not factor into sizing of
our bicycles so we do not make them available to prevent consumers from
making an error in sizing. In addition, the multitude of possibilities
of stem rise and reach, stem spacers and along with the headset stack
height renders head tube length data irrelavant to sizing.

Head tube length has importance only in sizing sloping top tube compact
frames. CyclesMercier does not use compact frame geometry.

Our bicycles are traditional geometry. The seat tube length is given
from center to top. The top tube extends perpendicular to the ground
plane directly from the seat tube to the head tube.

Regards,

CyclesMercier

----- Original Message -----
From: scogo
To: [email hidden]
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 1:08 PM
Subject: head tube lengths?

This is just one potential customer's opinion.
A company who sells bicycles exclusively online, unridden, and unseen
except though photos, you should provide as much information as
possible. This isn't my first bike, and I'm not buying it because I
like the color. I'm trying to compare the dimensions to my current
bikes to best figure out the best fit. You may not find that important,
but I do.
With all the variables that go into framebuilding and sizing, I'd
think the least you could do is provide answers to simple questions.
One last thing: "proprietary"? What does proprietary mean in this
context? That no one else uses a head tube length of the same size?
That you've developed some sort of special size for length of the
head tube? Perhaps it's your measurement system? Is it based on the
mile?

I'm with CyclesMercier. Head tube length is irrelevant except for
aesthetics and possible safety problems if using a fork with a carbon
steerer. The email from CyclesMercier where they state: "In addition,
the multitude of possibilities of stem rise and reach, stem spacers and
along with the headset stack height renders head tube length data
irrelavant to sizing." is all there needs to be said about head tube
length.

Why do you think your bad back would care if the bars are at X height
and Y reach due to 3cm of spacers and +10 degrees stem with 12cm reach
or 6cm of spacers and 0 degrees stem with 11cm reach? The end result
of X height and Y reach is identical.

And with a traditional horizontal top tube frame, all you are really
asking, when you ask for head tube length, is whether the frame builder
put an extra 0.5 or 1 or 2 cm of head tube above the top tube. You
know the head tube is at least as tall as the top tube. And whether
the additional space above the top tube is taken up by extra head tube
or spacers on the fork steerer, does not matter.

Andrew F Martin said:

Good point Mike - I glossed over the Disc issue. I guess I'm just
used to being flexible that I can make most any bike "fit". In my
case, the only bike I had problems with had a long head tube so I had a
hard time getting low enough.

So - I take it back. Mail order works fine if you looking a deal, but
you aren't likely to get any sort of fit like you would with an LBS.

....OR unless you know what works for you and can get the stupid
measurements.
But whatever, I understand what he's saying about the horizontal top
tube. I can look at pics and ASSUME that there are no extensions or
anything special, and that a 62 will fit like a 62 with a normal stack
height. But maybe not. Maybe there's an especially long down tube and a
tiny head tube. Maybe the head tube on a 62 extends three feet above
the top tube. Maybe the fork's steerer is perilously thin and prone to
failure the more spacers I use. Who knows?
The point is, this isn't the way a company puts its best foot forward.
If I'm a little anxious about the quality of the frame and fork,
stonewalling me on what's likely a non-issue isn't the way to assuage
my concerns.
If I was considering buying a pair of shoes online for a significant
discount and wanted to know about the width, or the shape of the
toebox, or how tall the heel is, and the company said, "Sir, it's a 47.
Any other information and you'd just get confused," I'd say what I'm
going to say here.
Thanks anyway.

/s

<snippage of party line from Mercier>

BikeSellerEmployeeDude, do you think that the potential customer,
having requested the info, is MORE or LESS likely to purchase if you
tell them they don't need to know what they have gone to great lengths
to ask about?

If they wanna know, they wanna know. Despite any attempts to dissuade
them from this pursuit.

D'ohBoy, who would've just told him. Like he's gonna rip off your
supersecret "proprietary" design? Everyone is abuzz about mercier head
tube lengths, let me tell you!

Quoted message said:

Why do you think your bad back would care if the bars are at X height
and Y reach due to 3cm of spacers and +10 degrees stem with 12cm reach
or 6cm of spacers and 0 degrees stem with 11cm reach? The end result
of X height and Y reach is identical.

And whether
the additional space above the top tube is taken up by extra head tube
or spacers on the fork steerer, does not matter.

The end result is the same as far as position is concerned, but
certainly not stiffness or aesthetics... and if you use a carbon
steerer, you *can't* have a lot of spacers on the steerer, even if it
happened to be cut long.

Quoted message said:

And with a traditional horizontal top tube frame, all you are really
asking, when you ask for head tube length, is whether the frame builder
put an extra 0.5 or 1 or 2 cm of head tube above the top tube. You
know the head tube is at least as tall as the top tube.

What if you are wanting to compare it to a compact frame that you
currently have? What if you are wanting to know if you need a new stem,
more spacers, etc?

What if you just want to know?

I suspect that the person at Mercier who answered this query didn't
know what the length was and couldn't find out easily. Still, his
attitude sucked. That is no way to treat potential customers.

Scott Gordo wrote:...

Quoted message said:

As I was looking over their sizing charts, I noticed that there was no
measurement for the head tube. I figured, just for giggles, that I'd
drop them an email and see what I could find out. The following is my
exchange:
...

Your question was not unreasonable. I'd pass on Mercier if I got a
reply like you received.

Quoted message said:

I'm with CyclesMercier. Head tube length is irrelevant except for
aesthetics and possible safety problems if using a fork with a carbon
steerer.

"Irrelevant except for...possible safety problems" That's funny.

JT

****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Ron Ruff said:

Quoted message said:

Why do you think your bad back would care if the bars are at X height
and Y reach due to 3cm of spacers and +10 degrees stem with 12cm reach
or 6cm of spacers and 0 degrees stem with 11cm reach? The end result
of X height and Y reach is identical.

And whether
the additional space above the top tube is taken up by extra head tube
or spacers on the fork steerer, does not matter.

I wrote:
I'm with CyclesMercier. Head tube length is irrelevant except for
aesthetics and possible safety problems if using a fork with a carbon
steerer.

RonRuff said:

The end result is the same as far as position is concerned, but
certainly not stiffness or aesthetics... and if you use a carbon
steerer, you *can't* have a lot of spacers on the steerer, even if it
happened to be cut long.

So you agree exactly with me. Aesthetics and possible safety concern
if using a carbon steerer. Its good we agree head tube length is
irrelevant.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And with a traditional horizontal top tube frame, all you are really
asking, when you ask for head tube length, is whether the frame builder
put an extra 0.5 or 1 or 2 cm of head tube above the top tube. You
know the head tube is at least as tall as the top tube.

What if you are wanting to compare it to a compact frame that you
currently have?

I use seat tube and top tube length to compare and buy bikes. Never
considered head tube length since I know stems can be flipped over or
putchased for less than $10 and spacers used or not used on the fork
steerer tube. Do you really use head tube length to compare bikes?

Quoted message said:

What if you are wanting to know if you need a new stem,
more spacers, etc?

But them after you get the bike and have ridden it to see if you need a
new stem or more spacers. If you buy the new stem and spacers ahead of
time, make sure you can return them.

Quoted message said:

What if you just want to know?

How does wanting to know affect whether you can get the bars into the
same position regardless of the head tube length?

Quoted message said:

I suspect that the person at Mercier who answered this query didn't
know what the length was and couldn't find out easily. Still, his
attitude sucked. That is no way to treat potential customers.

D'ohBoy said:

<snippage of party line from Mercier>

BikeSellerEmployeeDude, do you think that the potential customer,
having requested the info, is MORE or LESS likely to purchase if you
tell them they don't need to know what they have gone to great lengths
to ask about?

If they wanna know, they wanna know. Despite any attempts to dissuade
them from this pursuit.

D'ohBoy, who would've just told him. Like he's gonna rip off your
supersecret "proprietary" design? Everyone is abuzz about mercier head
tube lengths, let me tell you!

Isn't it funny that when a bike shop/bike maker person actually tells
someone the truth and tries to dissuade them of a foolish myth that
they are thought of as bad. If the question asker had asked if the
bike was stiff yet comfortable and Mercier had said that is BS and no
way to buy a bike, would you think Mercier was bad? What if the
question asker had asked if the bike was aerodynamic and would make
them minutes faster and Mercier had said the bike is irrelevant for
that, would you think they were bad? I take it you think all bike
shop people should just go along with the customers BS and reinforce
the preconceived BS the customer has with more BS. It is what most
bike shops do.

One thing to note, is that the Mercier guy probably has no idea what
the geometry is. They are Taiwan frames that they buy and slap their
stickers on, so unless he goes to the box, opens it, and takes a
measurement - he probably doesn't know. I'm pretty sure that where
ever that guy is sitting, there's no assembled boxes close. More
likely he's at home with a warehouse full of bikes somewhere that he
ships out all over the country and to a handful of shops that have
decided to carry their bikes.

Quoted message said:

I use seat tube and top tube length to compare and buy bikes. Never
considered head tube length since I know stems can be flipped over or
putchased for less than $10 and spacers used or not used on the fork
steerer tube. Do you really use head tube length to compare bikes?

Yes, because it effects what I need to do to get the bars where I want
them to be. This dimension can easily vary by 2 cm between brands and
between adjacent sizes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What if you are wanting to know if you need a new stem,
more spacers, etc?

But them after you get the bike and have ridden it to see if you need a
new stem or more spacers. If you buy the new stem and spacers ahead of
time, make sure you can return them.

Why should I be forced to do that, when I could easily know ahead of
time... if they'd only give me the damn dimensions!

Quoted message said:

How does wanting to know affect whether you can get the bars into the
same position regardless of the head tube length?

Using your logic, the seat tube angle and top tube length are also
irrelevant... since you can compensate for several degrees in the seat
angle by sliding the seat for and aft, or getting a different post with
more or less setback... and stems come in a wide variety of lengths and
angles.

Looking at Merciers website (Al bikes), they have 10 frame sizes from
46 to 64, with top tube lengths ranging from 504mm to 611mm, and seat
angles going from 72 to 74 degrees. Since the change in effective
top-tube length is about 1cm per degree, the total TT range is
effectively only 87mm, or less than 1cm per size. Since stems are
commonly available from 80 to 140mm lengths, you could easily
accomodate everyone's bar and seat position with ONLY 3 SIZES!! If they
sold a 46, a 55, and a 64 they'd cover exactly the same range of sizes
as they do now, and nobody would be unable to get their seat or bar in
the right place.

So why do they have 10 sizes, if "being able to get" the seat and bar
in the right place is the only issue?

And why do they not give you the head tube length, when they list 10
other (irrelevant) dimensions on their site?

"Scott Gordo" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[snipped tale of horrendous customer service]

Scott-

You do realize, don't you, that by merely /asking/ about the head tube
length, you have been added to the FBI's Watch List.

Air travel, for you, will now be a laborious process at best.

(All too many) years ago, I sold Honda automobiles ... for a month. A
customer asked what the wheelbase on the Accord was. Not knowing, I
(shocking, yes) told him that I'd check the brochure and come right
back.

I was intercepted by the Sales Manager. I told him of the customer's
inquiry. His response? "Ask him: 'If the wheelbase were 115 inches,
would you buy the car today?'" I sidestepped the manager, got the
information that the customer wanted, then asked him why that
particular number mattered so much to him.

He was, as it turns out, some sort of physicist who spent the majority
of his time driving on California's Interstate 5. There was some
mathematical correlation between wheelbase and the placement of the
expansion joints that--if the wheelbase were between X and Y
inches--would set up a sort of a yaw in the car, producing an
uncomfortable ride.

Who knew? Right, wrong, or otherwise: he asked a reasonable question
and was entitled to the correct answer. He bought the car.

I have no opinion as to the importance of head tube length. I do,
however, think it was a reasonable question under any circumstances,
and one that was met with an unreasonable answer.

Not sure they're the kind of company from whom I'd want to buy a bike.
YMMV.

Good luck!
--
Live simply so that others may simply live

Quoted message said:

D'ohBoy said:

<snippage of party line from Mercier>

BikeSellerEmployeeDude, do you think that the potential customer,
having requested the info, is MORE or LESS likely to purchase if you
tell them they don't need to know what they have gone to great lengths
to ask about?

If they wanna know, they wanna know. Despite any attempts to dissuade
them from this pursuit.

D'ohBoy, who would've just told him. Like he's gonna rip off your
supersecret "proprietary" design? Everyone is abuzz about mercier head
tube lengths, let me tell you!

Isn't it funny that when a bike shop/bike maker person actually tells
someone the truth and tries to dissuade them of a foolish myth that
they are thought of as bad. If the question asker had asked if the
bike was stiff yet comfortable and Mercier had said that is BS and no
way to buy a bike, would you think Mercier was bad? What if the
question asker had asked if the bike was aerodynamic and would make
them minutes faster and Mercier had said the bike is irrelevant for
that, would you think they were bad? I take it you think all bike
shop people should just go along with the customers BS and reinforce
the preconceived BS the customer has with more BS. It is what most
bike shops do.

Yah, but..... get realistic - and answer the question: under which
circumstances would you expect the potential customer will buy from
you?

I'm not saying you should lie to sell product - but in the case of this
gentleman, his inquiry was reasonable for a number of reasons that
already have been cited.

Obviously there are situations in which you would have to dissuade
someone of a notion.

I was referring to this particular case. Or other similar queries like
head tube size, etc...

D'ohBoy

<[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I'm with CyclesMercier. Head tube length is irrelevant except for
aesthetics and possible safety problems if using a fork with a carbon
steerer.

The color of the bike is also irrelevant. So if a prospective buyer asked
what color the bike was, would you refuse to tell him?

Ron Ruff said:

And why do they not give you the head tube length, when they list 10
other (irrelevant) dimensions on their site?

[sarcasm] Ron, you are not qualified to determine which dimensions are
relevant and which are irrelevant. Only someone with CyclesMercier is
qualified to do that. [/sarcasm]

Quoted message said:

I'm with CyclesMercier. Head tube length is irrelevant except for
aesthetics and possible safety problems if using a fork with a carbon
steerer. The email from CyclesMercier where they state: "In addition,
the multitude of possibilities of stem rise and reach, stem spacers and
along with the headset stack height renders head tube length data
irrelavant to sizing." is all there needs to be said about head tube
length.

So if a customer wants to know if a particular stem/fork combination
will put the bars at the correct height, how the heck would you
calculate this without knowing the head tube length? Without knowing
the fork height, the headset stack height AND the head tube height,
you can only guess - and IMHO "guessing" isn't what customers expect
or deserve.

Quoted message said:

Why do you think your bad back would care if the bars are at X height
and Y reach due to 3cm of spacers and +10 degrees stem with 12cm reach
or 6cm of spacers and 0 degrees stem with 11cm reach? The end result
of X height and Y reach is identical.

If the fork you're using is rated for only 2-3cm of spacers, your back
may care VERY much when the steer tube snaps because of the fact you
had to use 6cm of spacers.

Quoted message said:

And with a traditional horizontal top tube frame, all you are really
asking, when you ask for head tube length, is whether the frame builder
put an extra 0.5 or 1 or 2 cm of head tube above the top tube. You
know the head tube is at least as tall as the top tube. And whether
the additional space above the top tube is taken up by extra head tube
or spacers on the fork steerer, does not matter.

This is just wrong. You assume that the top tube is perfectly
horizontal - there's no way of knowing that. And with the move to
carbon fiber steer tubes, the maximum amount of spacers IS a real
issue.

Bottom line - there's really no reason for a bike company NOT to share
the information on the length of their head tube. The premise that
not sharing the info with potential customers is going to keep the
information "secret" is ludicrous at best, laughable at worst. What?
None of us other bike company guys have access to a tape measure?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Quoted message said:

The point is, this isn't the way a company puts its best foot forward.
If I'm a little anxious about the quality of the frame and fork,
stonewalling me on what's likely a non-issue isn't the way to assuage
my concerns.

Scott: It's not in their best interest to "put their best-foot forward."
They make money (quite a bit of it) at the prices they sell the bikes for
primarily because they *don't* offer support. Warranty? Lifetime! Just
return it to any Mercier dealer. Fine, if live in metropolitan Texas,
otherwise a very long road trip. Help in sizing the bike? The problem there
is that, once you begin to help a customer, you're trapped. They're going to
keep coming back with more questions, looking for more advice. That's the
way it works. At the retail end, that's a good thing, keeps the customer
coming back for more goodies etc.

At Mercier's end, it's a distraction that keeps them from selling their
*only* product. The time they spend with someone on the phone or email
discussing various details is time they don't have to sell bikes to other
people who don't ask such questions, but buy because the product is cheap.
As long as they have a supply of the latter customers (wanting cheap
product), they'll always short-change those who cost them more time,
resulting in fewer sales to the more-profitable clientele. That's business
at that end of the game.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Scott Gordo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andrew F Martin said:

Good point Mike - I glossed over the Disc issue. I guess I'm just
used to being flexible that I can make most any bike "fit". In my
case, the only bike I had problems with had a long head tube so I had a
hard time getting low enough.

So - I take it back. Mail order works fine if you looking a deal, but
you aren't likely to get any sort of fit like you would with an LBS.

...OR unless you know what works for you and can get the stupid
measurements.
But whatever, I understand what he's saying about the horizontal top
tube. I can look at pics and ASSUME that there are no extensions or
anything special, and that a 62 will fit like a 62 with a normal stack
height. But maybe not. Maybe there's an especially long down tube and a
tiny head tube. Maybe the head tube on a 62 extends three feet above
the top tube. Maybe the fork's steerer is perilously thin and prone to
failure the more spacers I use. Who knows?
The point is, this isn't the way a company puts its best foot forward.
If I'm a little anxious about the quality of the frame and fork,
stonewalling me on what's likely a non-issue isn't the way to assuage
my concerns.
If I was considering buying a pair of shoes online for a significant
discount and wanted to know about the width, or the shape of the
toebox, or how tall the heel is, and the company said, "Sir, it's a 47.
Any other information and you'd just get confused," I'd say what I'm
going to say here.
Thanks anyway.

/s