Dawes Discovery/Sonoran Model Changes

Steve Almond said:

I notice that the 2003 model Discovery 501 had mechanical disc brakes, =

the

Quoted message said:

2004 model does not.
Were the brakes a 'failure', or was dropping them an economic decision?=

I don't know, but on a Discovery 501 (a lowish/mid-priced hybrid with a=20
roadish accent) I applaud the respecification. AFAICT there's no point=20
in discs unless you're Doing It Properly, and that means a substantial=20
increase in cost. If you're under =A3400 then anything other than Vs (or=
=20
possibly cantis or dual pivots) on such a bike is IMHO a horrible=20
misappropriation of funds mainly for cosmetic reasons.

Quoted message said:

Similarly the 2003 Sonoran had butterfly 'bars, the 2004 model does not=

=2E Can

Quoted message said:

anyone comment on the usefulness of these bars?

It depends on how you like your bars and how long the rides you'll make=20
will be... The point of butterfly bars is (like drops on a tourer) to=20
give you a variety of different hand positions to ease discomfort over a =

long ride. But with a relatively upright seating position (as the=20
Sonoran appears to have) there's less weight on the bars so less=20
usefulness in being able to hold them in n different ways, so it's a=20
load of excess weight for little gain. In practice you can get a long=20
way towards the same thing with a cheap pair of bar-ends on flat bars,=20
but if you're sitting up fairly straight with most of your weight on the =

saddle even they become a bit of a non-issue for many riders, especially =

on shorter trips. If you find your hands uncomfortable you can always=20
retrofit butterflies.

Pete.
--=20
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter, sound reasoning on both issues. There are 2003 models of each bike in
my LBS for a discount.
The disc brakes seem to be worth about £100, and the entire 501 is down to
£299! As you say, not much left for the rest (but is IS still a Discovery
501....).
In my quest for a hybrid bike (the usual mainly road/some paths and tracks),
I'm seeing a division between bike with 26" tyres and those with 700c tyres.
Is this a sensible dividing line? Me being mainly a road rider (and 53 years
old, so "taking it easy"😉 should I tend towards 700c hybrids?

Thanks,

Steve

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Steve Almond said:

I notice that the 2003 model Discovery 501 had mechanical disc brakes, the
2004 model does not.
Were the brakes a 'failure', or was dropping them an economic decision?

I don't know, but on a Discovery 501 (a lowish/mid-priced hybrid with a
roadish accent) I applaud the respecification. AFAICT there's no point
in discs unless you're Doing It Properly, and that means a substantial
increase in cost. If you're under £400 then anything other than Vs (or
possibly cantis or dual pivots) on such a bike is IMHO a horrible
misappropriation of funds mainly for cosmetic reasons.

Quoted message said:

Similarly the 2003 Sonoran had butterfly 'bars, the 2004 model does not.

Can

Quoted message said:

anyone comment on the usefulness of these bars?

It depends on how you like your bars and how long the rides you'll make
will be... The point of butterfly bars is (like drops on a tourer) to
give you a variety of different hand positions to ease discomfort over a
long ride. But with a relatively upright seating position (as the
Sonoran appears to have) there's less weight on the bars so less
usefulness in being able to hold them in n different ways, so it's a
load of excess weight for little gain. In practice you can get a long
way towards the same thing with a cheap pair of bar-ends on flat bars,
but if you're sitting up fairly straight with most of your weight on the
saddle even they become a bit of a non-issue for many riders, especially
on shorter trips. If you find your hands uncomfortable you can always
retrofit butterflies.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Steve Almond said:

The disc brakes seem to be worth about =A3100, and the entire 501 is do=

wn to

Quoted message said:

=A3299! As you say, not much left for the rest (but is IS still a Disco=

very

Quoted message said:

501....).

Mechanical disks strike me, to borrow Dave Larrington's words, as being=20
"a half arsed Work of Stan". You'll get very little extra Real Braking=20
Power than a properly set up V or canti combined with more expensive=20
brake pads that are more awkward to come by and more awkward to change.=20
Hydraulic brakes, be they rim based like Magura HS-33s or disc based,=20
are IMHO the Way To Go if you want the next step in real braking=20
effectiveness. There is a place as I see it for a mech disc, but it's=20
on a lower end MTB where the brakes are mainly being used in gritty=20
off-road a lot which will wear down rims rather quicker than you'd like=20
and you just don't have the money for hydraulics.

I've used a few demo bikes with mech discs, and not just cheap and nasty =

ones either, and none of them are anything I'd want to swap my hydraulic =

rim brakes for (that on a road-based tourer that does some easy tracks to=
o).

The main point about discs at the low end of the market are they are=20
perceived by A Typical Buyer as being Cool and Sporty, which seems to=20
matter far more in the UK than actually being any use in action.

Quoted message said:

In my quest for a hybrid bike (the usual mainly road/some paths and tra=

cks),

Quoted message said:

I'm seeing a division between bike with 26" tyres and those with 700c t=

yres.

Quoted message said:

Is this a sensible dividing line? Me being mainly a road rider (and 53 =

years

Quoted message said:

old, so "taking it easy"😉 should I tend towards 700c hybrids?

My perception of this is that the difference is mainly down to marketing =

and the perceptions of buyers. There's nothing much you'll be able to=20
do on 700c that you won't manage on 26" as long as you put the right=20
tyres on either. There's /slightly/ less rolling resistance on a 700c,=20
but if you want every teensiest bit of extra speed then what do you want =

a hybrid for anyway? 26" wheels are stronger where the materials are=20
otherwise equal and you've a better choice of tyres to fit them. IMHO=20
tyre choice is more of a factor than wheel size. All else being equal=20
I'd personally go for 26" but I'm more interested in a little extra=20
strength and more tyres to choose from than a little extra speed, and=20
you might prefer a shade more speed and be happy enough with your tyre=20
choice (it's not exactly limited!).

So I'd say bugger the wheel size as a differentiation (unless you're=20
particularly short, when 26" would probably bring clear and tangible=20
benefits just by being smaller), look at everything else that's=20
important to you. Comfort of riding position, component standard in the =

drivetrain, that sort of thing.

Pete.
--=20
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted message said:

There is a place as I see it for a mech disc, but it's
on a lower end MTB where the brakes are mainly being used in gritty
off-road a lot which will wear down rims rather quicker than you'd
like and you just don't have the money for hydraulics.

Do mechanical disk brakes work better in the wet than Vs? I suppose
they're certainly less likely to get we in the first place. I'd certainly
put up with higher pad costs for better wet braking ability.

in message <[email hidden]>, Mark

Thompson (') said:

Quoted message said:

There is a place as I see it for a mech disc, but it's
on a lower end MTB where the brakes are mainly being used in gritty
off-road a lot which will wear down rims rather quicker than you'd
like and you just don't have the money for hydraulics.

Do mechanical disk brakes work better in the wet than Vs? I suppose
they're certainly less likely to get we in the first place.

They're further away from mud. When cycling off road in muddy conditions
your rims get coated with a slurry which is at once abrasive and
lubricative - so with rim brakes your rims get worn out faster but it
doesn't actually slow you down much. There's a reasonable chance that
the disks will be just wet and not also covered in gritty mud. Also,
the pad-to-disk pressures of disk brakes tend to be higher, so water on
the disk is less likely to form a lubricative film. I've never used
cable operated disks, just hydraulic ones; but the hydraulic ones are
impressively reliable in muddy wet conditions - pretty much as good as
they are in the dry, in fact.

Quoted message said:

I'd
certainly put up with higher pad costs for better wet braking ability.

You also get higher weight. Even the best disk brakes are significantly
heavier than good V brakes.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Age equals angst multiplied by the speed of fright squared.
;; the Worlock

Peter Clinch said:

Steve Almond said:

I notice that the 2003 model Discovery 501 had mechanical disc brakes, the
2004 model does not.
Were the brakes a 'failure', or was dropping them an economic decision?

I don't know, but on a Discovery 501 (a lowish/mid-priced hybrid with a
roadish accent) I applaud the respecification. AFAICT there's no point
in discs unless you're Doing It Properly, and that means a substantial
increase in cost. If you're under £400 then anything other than Vs (or
possibly cantis or dual pivots) on such a bike is IMHO a horrible
misappropriation of funds mainly for cosmetic reasons.

Quoted message said:

Similarly the 2003 Sonoran had butterfly 'bars, the 2004 model does not. Can
anyone comment on the usefulness of these bars?

It depends on how you like your bars and how long the rides you'll make
will be... The point of butterfly bars is (like drops on a tourer) to
give you a variety of different hand positions to ease discomfort over a
long ride. But with a relatively upright seating position (as the
Sonoran appears to have) there's less weight on the bars so less
usefulness in being able to hold them in n different ways, so it's a
load of excess weight for little gain. In practice you can get a long
way towards the same thing with a cheap pair of bar-ends on flat bars,
but if you're sitting up fairly straight with most of your weight on the
saddle even they become a bit of a non-issue for many riders, especially
on shorter trips. If you find your hands uncomfortable you can always
retrofit butterflies.

I am very happy with my Sonoran butterfly bars. I tend to get
pins-and-needles in my hands if I am tired or on a long down hill run,
so to be able to shift the position of my hands is helpful.

Note; If you do get pins-and-needles in your hands, you must relive it.
Failure to do so can seriously damage the nerves in your hands. Carpal
tunnel syndrome is one possibility. This can be relieved with drugs,
injections or a minor operation. If there is severe damage to the nerves
then recuperation can take up to 6 months, as the nerves re-grow at
about 1mm per day.

--
Regards, Shane
"A closed mouth gathers no feet!"
Website: http://www.wonk.demon.co.uk/

in message <[email hidden]>, Shane Badham

(') said:

Note; If you do get pins-and-needles in your hands, you must relive
it. Failure to do so can seriously damage the nerves in your hands.
Carpal tunnel syndrome is one possibility. This can be relieved with
drugs, injections or a minor operation. If there is severe damage to
the nerves then recuperation can take up to 6 months, as the nerves
re-grow at about 1mm per day.

Nonsense. In the early eighties before I discovered GrabOns (sort of
pipe-lagging for handlebars) I suffered from severe pins and needles in
my hands while riding. As my bike was my only personal transport and I
was commuting at least twelve and often thirty miles every day, I was
riding a lot. I suffered no damage, either short, medium or long term.

I now use gel-filled track mitts, which have a similar effect to the
GrabOns - greatly reduce road shock to the hands.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'You cannot put "The Internet" into the Recycle Bin.'

"Shane Badham" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

Similarly the 2003 Sonoran had butterfly 'bars, the 2004 model does

not. Can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

anyone comment on the usefulness of these bars?

It depends on how you like your bars and how long the rides you'll make
will be... The point of butterfly bars is (like drops on a tourer) to
give you a variety of different hand positions to ease discomfort over a
long ride. But with a relatively upright seating position (as the
Sonoran appears to have) there's less weight on the bars so less
usefulness in being able to hold them in n different ways, so it's a
load of excess weight for little gain. In practice you can get a long
way towards the same thing with a cheap pair of bar-ends on flat bars,
but if you're sitting up fairly straight with most of your weight on the
saddle even they become a bit of a non-issue for many riders, especially
on shorter trips. If you find your hands uncomfortable you can always
retrofit butterflies.

I am very happy with my Sonoran butterfly bars. I tend to get
pins-and-needles in my hands if I am tired or on a long down hill run,
so to be able to shift the position of my hands is helpful.

thanks for this discussion, i have a marin larkspur 20.5 size frame, the
biggest. I am 6 ft 2 1/2 with long arms (extra long sleeves in shirts).
The only gripe about the bike is that i get pins and needles on long rides
in my left hand. I have been thinking about bar ends or butterfly bars.
You have helped me decide on bar ends for now. I am going to my local
second shop in the elephant in castle and buy some tomorrow. I will fit
butterflys if that doesn't work.
btw imho the marin is a very good entry level bike and fits me better than
anything else i tried and is more comfortable than the f w evans tourer i
had years ago.
Paul