"Dangerous" Cantilers?

Robin Hubert said:

Hit the CR key by mistake ... and now DSL quit ... delay in posting
....

One of our esteemed experts previously suggested that a cantilever
equipped bike without bbl adjusters is dangerous.

"If there are no adjusting barrels provided, the bike is dangerous and
defective. Nobody should accept such incompetence."

I'm baffled by this. Inconvenient, maybe, but dangerous? Defective?

Comments appreciated.

Inconvenient, maybe. "Dangerous" seems silly.

I think the concept of "safety" has the same place in our society that
the concept of "miracles" had in the dark ages. Back then, if you
described direct miraculous intervention by the Lord, all debate
ceased, no matter how implausible the tale. Anyone questioning was
obviously a heathen to be mocked and shunned.

These days, if anyone accepts something that isn't as "safe" as
possible, they are a heathen to be mocked and shunned.

Seems the age of reason came, then left again.

- Frank Krygowski

Robin Hubert said:

One of our esteemed experts previously suggested that a cantilever
equipped bike without bbl adjusters is dangerous.

"If there are no adjusting barrels provided, the bike is dangerous and
defective. Nobody should accept such incompetence."

I'm baffled by this. Inconvenient, maybe, but dangerous? Defective?

Drop bar levers tend to have slightly more mechanical advantage than
typical upright-style levers, and those are the ones that lack built-in
barrel adjusters.

Cantilever brakes can work very well with these, but the adjustment
becomes more critical.

Any rim brake should have some provision for taking up the cable slack
as the brake shoes wear, with no tools required.

If such adjusters are omitted, there's a much greater chance of the bike
being riddden with incorrectly adjusted brakes as the pads wear. This
is dangerous, expecially in wet conditions.

Even if the rider does take the trouble to re-adjust the cable at the
anchor bolt, when new shoes are installed the cable will then need to be
loosened again the same way, and now there will be a crimped, formerly
clamped section of cable as part of the working cable. This is much
more likely to break than a section of cable that has not been subject
to repeated clamping and re-clamping to accomplish the fine adjustment
that _should_ have been done with the barrel adjuster.

Sheldon "Perhaps I Should Have Said 'Mono-Buttocked'" Brown
+--------------------------------------------+
| Most people would sooner die than think; |
| in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell |
+--------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:48:25 -0400, Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Robin Hubert said:

One of our esteemed experts previously suggested that a cantilever
equipped bike without bbl adjusters is dangerous.

"If there are no adjusting barrels provided, the bike is dangerous and
defective. Nobody should accept such incompetence."

I'm baffled by this. Inconvenient, maybe, but dangerous? Defective?

Drop bar levers tend to have slightly more mechanical advantage than
typical upright-style levers, and those are the ones that lack built-in
barrel adjusters.

Cantilever brakes can work very well with these, but the adjustment
becomes more critical.

Any rim brake should have some provision for taking up the cable slack
as the brake shoes wear, with no tools required.

If such adjusters are omitted, there's a much greater chance of the bike
being riddden with incorrectly adjusted brakes as the pads wear. This
is dangerous, expecially in wet conditions.

Even if the rider does take the trouble to re-adjust the cable at the
anchor bolt, when new shoes are installed the cable will then need to be
loosened again the same way, and now there will be a crimped, formerly
clamped section of cable as part of the working cable. This is much
more likely to break than a section of cable that has not been subject
to repeated clamping and re-clamping to accomplish the fine adjustment
that _should_ have been done with the barrel adjuster.

I had a bike and the easiest adjustment for the front brake was adjusting the
stem up and down. A bit more awkward than a barrel on the lever, but it worked.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "Perhaps I Should Have Said 'Mono-Buttocked'" Brown

Yep, that it was.

Ron

Quoted message said:

+--------------------------------------------+
| Most people would sooner die than think; |
| in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell |
+--------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

On 27 Jul 2005 15:15:55 -0700, "Robin Hubert" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hit the CR key by mistake ... and now DSL quit ... delay in posting
....

One of our esteemed experts previously suggested that a cantilever
equipped bike without bbl adjusters is dangerous.

"If there are no adjusting barrels provided, the bike is dangerous and
defective. Nobody should accept such incompetence."

I'm baffled by this. Inconvenient, maybe, but dangerous? Defective?

Bloody hard to make a canti setup without adjusters at the levers
unless you cross-breed it with a roadie, innit? I can't see that
working well anyway.

I think the cited assertion is an overreaction to a problem that's
hard to create to begin with. *If* a set of canti brake levers could
be found which lacked adjusting barrels, the system could still be
adjusted (inconveniently) using the cable clamp. I would score this
as a troll in its venue.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Sheldon Brown said:

Sheldon "Perhaps I Should Have Said 'Mono-Buttocked'" Brown

Or would it have been better expressed as "velocity drawn"? Naah, too
obscure for anybody but Fogel.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

Seems the age of reason came, then left again.

Given what happened to both the author and the book, the Age of Reason
never fully arrived. Damned good read, though, even 200 years later.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoting Werehatrack <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

On 27 Jul 2005 15:15:55 -0700, "Robin Hubert" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

One of our esteemed experts previously suggested that a cantilever
equipped bike without bbl adjusters is dangerous.

Bloody hard to make a canti setup without adjusters at the levers
unless you cross-breed it with a roadie, innit?

You mean like a very large proportion of touring bikes? Not so very hard
after all.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?
Today is Second Oneiros, July.

Quoting Werehatrack <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

On 27 Jul 2005 15:15:55 -0700, "Robin Hubert" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

One of our esteemed experts previously suggested that a cantilever
equipped bike without bbl adjusters is dangerous.

Bloody hard to make a canti setup without adjusters at the levers
unless you cross-breed it with a roadie, innit?

You mean like a very large proportion of touring bikes? Not so very hard
after all.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?
Today is Second Oneiros, July.

David Damerell said:

Quoting Werehatrack <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

On 27 Jul 2005 15:15:55 -0700, "Robin Hubert" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

One of our esteemed experts previously suggested that a cantilever
equipped bike without bbl adjusters is dangerous.

Bloody hard to make a canti setup without adjusters at the levers
unless you cross-breed it with a roadie, innit?

You mean like a very large proportion of touring bikes? Not so very hard
after all.

Touring bikes with drop bars are generally referred to as "randonneurs"
over here, though, and the proportion isn't so large.

Jasper

David Damerell said:

Quoting Werehatrack <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

On 27 Jul 2005 15:15:55 -0700, "Robin Hubert" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

One of our esteemed experts previously suggested that a cantilever
equipped bike without bbl adjusters is dangerous.

Bloody hard to make a canti setup without adjusters at the levers
unless you cross-breed it with a roadie, innit?

You mean like a very large proportion of touring bikes? Not so very hard
after all.

Touring bikes with drop bars are generally referred to as "randonneurs"
over here, though, and the proportion isn't so large.

Jasper

Werehatrack said:

Bloody hard to make a canti setup without adjusters at the levers
unless you cross-breed it with a roadie, innit? I can't see that
working well anyway.

I think the cited assertion is an overreaction to a problem that's
hard to create to begin with. *If* a set of canti brake levers could
be found which lacked adjusting barrels

There's no such thing as "canti brake levers" except in the imagination
of marketeers. The issue involves using drop bar brake levers with
chantilevers, as is done on virtually all touring bikes.

No current-production drop-bar brake lever incorporates a barrel
adjuster, but back when center-pull calipers were the hot thing,
virtually all "bike boom" tenspeeds had adjusters built into the housing
stops on the headset and seat cluster, even the cheapest models.

Thast is how it should be for modern bikes with drop bars and
cantilevers as well.

Alternatively, there are a variety of "in line" cable adjusters readily
available. Theres no excuse for trying to foist a bike off on a
customer that lacks some reasonable fine adjustment to deal with normal
brake pad wear.

No self-respecting mechanic would pass a bike with such a poor setup.

Sheldon "A Step Backwards" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a |
| thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that |
| cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be |
| impossible to get at or repair." - Douglas Adams, RIP - HHGTTG |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

Werehatrack said:

Bloody hard to make a canti setup without adjusters at the levers
unless you cross-breed it with a roadie, innit? I can't see that
working well anyway.

I think the cited assertion is an overreaction to a problem that's
hard to create to begin with. *If* a set of canti brake levers could
be found which lacked adjusting barrels

There's no such thing as "canti brake levers" except in the imagination
of marketeers. The issue involves using drop bar brake levers with
chantilevers, as is done on virtually all touring bikes.

No current-production drop-bar brake lever incorporates a barrel
adjuster, but back when center-pull calipers were the hot thing,
virtually all "bike boom" tenspeeds had adjusters built into the housing
stops on the headset and seat cluster, even the cheapest models.

Thast is how it should be for modern bikes with drop bars and
cantilevers as well.

Alternatively, there are a variety of "in line" cable adjusters readily
available. Theres no excuse for trying to foist a bike off on a
customer that lacks some reasonable fine adjustment to deal with normal
brake pad wear.

No self-respecting mechanic would pass a bike with such a poor setup.

Sheldon "A Step Backwards" Brown

This came up (most recently, IIRC) in response to my post about my
Cannondale T2000 tourer which--as Sheldon correctly indicates--uses
canti's, drop bars, Ultegra brifters, and is conspicuously lacking any
adjuster.

Since I've since bought a 'proper' road bike, I've ignored the
tourer's fatal flaw for now, but /do/ intend to add an inline brake
adjuster/cable hanger w/adjusting barrel before I take to riding it
much more.

Whether potentially lethal or just damned annoying, it is most
certainly a brain-dead oversight/decision to exclude, especially for a
bike that has inline adjusters for both front and rear der's.

Werehatrack said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Sheldon "Perhaps I Should Have Said 'Mono-Buttocked'" Brown

Or would it have been better expressed as "velocity drawn"? Naah, too
obscure for anybody but Fogel.

Dear Werehatrack,

Not bad--reminds me of Bentley's comment about the kind of
computer programming in which it is important to obtain
incorrect answers as quickly as possible.

Carl Fogel

Robin Hubert said:

Hit the CR key by mistake ... and now DSL quit ... delay in posting
....

One of our esteemed experts previously suggested that a cantilever
equipped bike without bbl adjusters is dangerous.

"If there are no adjusting barrels provided, the bike is dangerous and
defective. Nobody should accept such incompetence."

I'm baffled by this. Inconvenient, maybe, but dangerous? Defective?

Some riders might not possess an allen key to tighten the cable and
ignore any pad wear or cable stretch.

I don't have an adjuster on the front of my drop-barred touring bike
because I couldn't find a quality cable hanger with lots of drop AND an
adjuster. Front brake pad wear on the clean front wheel of a road bike
is so slow that it doesn't need attention more than once every 2,000
miles or so. The rear has an adjuster which screws into a brazed-on
hanger, and this does see some use because the rear rim is bathed in
gritty water all the time.

Without an adjuster it's essential to thoroughly pre-stretch a new
cable. I hold the lever on as hard as possible for a full minute.
Sometimes doing this adds a full 3mm clearance on each side of the rim!