Cycling wrong way up one way street



"John Wright" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> OG wrote:
>> "John Wright" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:p[email protected]...
>>> OG wrote:
>>>> "TimB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> What's the law on cycling the wrong way up a one way street? A few
>>>>> days ago, I was walking home, and saw two people on white Police
>>>>> cycles, wearing hi vis jackets with POLICE emblazoned on the back,
>>>>> travelling at a very leisurely pace, the wrong way round a local one
>>>>> way system, on the pavement. It may or may not have said "Community
>>>>> Support Officer" in smaller writing underneath.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, I was too far behind the officers to challenge them
>>>>> about their behaviour. I managed to get a few photos on my phone, but
>>>>> they're very poor quality and wouldn't allow for identification. What
>>>>> would be the best route to take to report these officers? As a
>>>>> cyclist, I despise inconsiderate cycling at the best of times, but
>>>>> from people who are a) supposed to be enforcing the law, and b) whose
>>>>> inconsiderate cycling is much more noticable because of their
>>>>> position, it's unacceptable.
>>>> Was it particuarly inconsiderate to anyone?
>>> Does that particularly matter? If you drive a car past a speed camera at
>>> times a few mph over the speed limit when it won't particularly be
>>> inconsiderate to anyone - e.g. at 2 in the morning, you will still get a
>>> ticket.
>>
>> But would you shop someone who you spotted doing it if there wasn't a
>> camera?
>
> I wouldn't. I think the only time I might was if someone was way over the
> speed limit in a sensitive place, like outside a school at chucking out
> time.
>
>> In law, no it doesn't make a difference, but whether the full power of
>> the law should be applied in every case is an interesting civil liberties
>> question.
>
> It is indeed. I suspect that's why a lot of people don't like speed
> cameras - they show no discretion.
>

But cameras are pretty obvious, so if people were really bothered you think
they would take more care not to get caught.
 
[email protected] (Neil Williams) writes:

> There are, in London, quite a lot of one-way streets that are two-way
> for cycles only. Seems a good idea.

Until you meet a vehicle coming the other way which is not expecting
you to be there.


-dan
 
On May 13, 10:06 pm, Colin McKenzie <[email protected]> wrote:
> TimB wrote:
>
> I expect you know it's illegal.

Actually, it did have me second guessing myself. Of course, it's
illegal to go the wrong way down a one way street, but does that mean
the one-way restriction extends to the pavement?

> It's not especially dangerous, if you
> do it on the road. But to many cyclists it seems less illegal, or at
> least safer, to use the pavement. It isn't, despite some drivers
> intimidating illegal on-road contraflow cyclists.
>
> But before condemning too much, consider
> - the one-way was introduced without any consideration of its effects
> on cyclists, and very possibly despite objections by local cyclists

For the record, this is the location (watch for wrapping).
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v...0&scene=7613498&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1

The one way street in question is Marsh Street North leading to York
Street - this is treated as a single road. The officers rode along
this before turning left onto Trinity Street and rejoining normal
traffic flow.

The 'alternative' route would be along Hope Street and Foundry Street,
which is both legal and considerably safer. The part of Trinity Street
at the end of Foundry Street is incorrectly marked on the map as one
way - it is in fact a two way street. Yes, it is about 50 yards or so
longer, but it's also legal - a point I would have expected to have
been quite high on the list of priorities for the police when choosing
a route.


> - the alternative route is almost certain to be longer and contain
> more junctions, which make it more dangerous

There is one more junction on the legal route, controlled by traffic
lights. It also has a shared cycleway/footpath with cycle crossing
areas if you'd prefer that (although that takes you onto Stafford
Street and adds another 50 yards or so to your journey)

> - the alternative route may be a fast gyratory or dual carriageway,
> which many cyclists will not cycle on, because they're frightening and
> may be dangerous.

The route they took was a fast dual carriageway. The legal route was
considerably safer.

> One-way streets are anti-cycling measures, and as such, should be
> returned to 2-way operation, possibly with plugs or mode filters to
> restrict undesirable motor vehicle use.

As utopian as your idea sounds, the fact is that roads are primarily
built for cars - the 'equal road user' stance only holds up until you
find yourself playing chicken with a bus.
 
On May 13, 8:38 pm, "OG" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "TimB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > What's the law on cycling the wrong way up a one way street? A few
> > days ago, I was walking home, and saw two people on white Police
> > cycles, wearing hi vis jackets with POLICE emblazoned on the back,
> > travelling at a very leisurely pace, the wrong way round a local one
> > way system, on the pavement. It may or may not have said "Community
> > Support Officer" in smaller writing underneath.
>
> > Unfortunately, I was too far behind the officers to challenge them
> > about their behaviour. I managed to get a few photos on my phone, but
> > they're very poor quality and wouldn't allow for identification. What
> > would be the best route to take to report these officers? As a
> > cyclist, I despise inconsiderate cycling at the best of times, but
> > from people who are a) supposed to be enforcing the law, and b) whose
> > inconsiderate cycling is much more noticable because of their
> > position, it's unacceptable.
>
> Was it particuarly inconsiderate to anyone?

There were a number of pedestrians using the pavement, which is not a
shared cycleway. The officers passed from behind without giving any
indication that they were there. Compared to many other cyclists,
nothing out of the ordinary. Considering that they should know better
- yes, they were being inconsiderate.
 
On Tue, 13 May 2008 23:55:26 +0100, Daniel Barlow <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Until you meet a vehicle coming the other way which is not expecting
>you to be there.

Most of the ones I've seen have a clearly marked cycle lane (yes, I
know).

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.
 
On 13 May, 18:09, TimB <[email protected]> wrote:
> What's the law on cycling the wrong way up a one way street? A few
> days ago, I was walking home, and saw two people on white Police
> cycles, wearing hi vis jackets with POLICE emblazoned on the back,
> travelling at a very leisurely pace, the wrong way round a local one
> way system, on the pavement. It may or may not have said "Community
> Support Officer" in smaller writing underneath.
>
> Unfortunately, I was too far behind the officers to challenge them
> about their behaviour. I managed to get a few photos on my phone, but
> they're very poor quality and wouldn't allow for identification. What
> would be the best route to take to report these officers? As a
> cyclist, I despise inconsiderate cycling at the best of times, but
> from people who are a) supposed to be enforcing the law, and b) whose
> inconsiderate cycling is much more noticable because of their
> position, it's unacceptable.
>
> If this was a normal cyclist, what would be the expected penalty if
> caught doing this?

Maybe a fine.

Of course police are not subject to the same laws as everyone else and
are rarely prosecuted, even when they kill someone.

The only reason people cycle on pavements is because they are too
scared to ride on our very dangerous roads, where almost anyone is
allowed to loose control of their lethal machine in a so-called
'accident'.

--
UK Radical Campaigns
www.zing.icom43.net
A driving licence is a licence to kill.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Nick Finnigan wrote:
>TimB wrote:
>
>> days ago, I was walking home, and saw two people on white Police
>> cycles, wearing hi vis jackets with POLICE emblazoned on the back,
>> travelling at a very leisurely pace
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Quite possible to have an exemption for emergency vehicles.
 
TimB wrote:

> Colin McKenzie <[email protected]> wrote:
>> TimB wrote:

>> I expect you know it's illegal.

> Actually, it did have me second guessing myself. Of course, it's
> illegal to go the wrong way down a one way street, but does that mean
> the one-way restriction extends to the pavement?

Of course it does - for vehicles.

If it didn't, it would be legal to drive a lorry the wrong way along the
street - as long as it was on the footway.

>> It's not especially dangerous, if you
>> do it on the road. But to many cyclists it seems less illegal, or at
>> least safer, to use the pavement. It isn't, despite some drivers
>> intimidating illegal on-road contraflow cyclists.

>> But before condemning too much, consider
>> - the one-way was introduced without any consideration of its effects
>> on cyclists, and very possibly despite objections by local cyclists

And?

Do they have some sort of veto?
 
Doug wrote:

> Of course police are not subject to the same laws as everyone else and
> are rarely prosecuted, even when they kill someone.

Yes they are subject, however the second part seems true.


> The only reason people cycle on pavements is because they are too
> scared to ride on our very dangerous roads, where almost anyone is
> allowed to loose control of their lethal machine in a so-called
> 'accident'.

Who is 'allowed to loose control?(sic)

--
 
OG wrote:
> "John Wright" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> OG wrote:
>>> "John Wright" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:p[email protected]...
>>>> OG wrote:
>>>>> "TimB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> What's the law on cycling the wrong way up a one way street? A few
>>>>>> days ago, I was walking home, and saw two people on white Police
>>>>>> cycles, wearing hi vis jackets with POLICE emblazoned on the back,
>>>>>> travelling at a very leisurely pace, the wrong way round a local one
>>>>>> way system, on the pavement. It may or may not have said "Community
>>>>>> Support Officer" in smaller writing underneath.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unfortunately, I was too far behind the officers to challenge them
>>>>>> about their behaviour. I managed to get a few photos on my phone, but
>>>>>> they're very poor quality and wouldn't allow for identification. What
>>>>>> would be the best route to take to report these officers? As a
>>>>>> cyclist, I despise inconsiderate cycling at the best of times, but
>>>>>> from people who are a) supposed to be enforcing the law, and b) whose
>>>>>> inconsiderate cycling is much more noticable because of their
>>>>>> position, it's unacceptable.
>>>>> Was it particuarly inconsiderate to anyone?
>>>> Does that particularly matter? If you drive a car past a speed camera at
>>>> times a few mph over the speed limit when it won't particularly be
>>>> inconsiderate to anyone - e.g. at 2 in the morning, you will still get a
>>>> ticket.
>>> But would you shop someone who you spotted doing it if there wasn't a
>>> camera?
>> I wouldn't. I think the only time I might was if someone was way over the
>> speed limit in a sensitive place, like outside a school at chucking out
>> time.
>>
>>> In law, no it doesn't make a difference, but whether the full power of
>>> the law should be applied in every case is an interesting civil liberties
>>> question.
>> It is indeed. I suspect that's why a lot of people don't like speed
>> cameras - they show no discretion.
>>
>
> But cameras are pretty obvious, so if people were really bothered you think
> they would take more care not to get caught.

They should be, but not always, especially in rural areas. There is one
I can think of on the A43 which was hidden behind a direction sign. Then
the government said "all cameras must be visible and painted yellow so
people can see them" but this one seemingly was unaffected, it stayed
grey and hidden. This is why people think they are just there for
revenue raising. Also see lots of other posts in uk.transport about what
are known as scamera vans or talivans - these pop up in all sorts of
places often without any warning at all.

--
John Wright

I feel like an insane person with the ability to mimic sanity
 
Doug wrote:
> On 13 May, 18:09, TimB <[email protected]> wrote:
>> What's the law on cycling the wrong way up a one way street? A few
>> days ago, I was walking home, and saw two people on white Police
>> cycles, wearing hi vis jackets with POLICE emblazoned on the back,
>> travelling at a very leisurely pace, the wrong way round a local one
>> way system, on the pavement. It may or may not have said "Community
>> Support Officer" in smaller writing underneath.
>>
>> Unfortunately, I was too far behind the officers to challenge them
>> about their behaviour. I managed to get a few photos on my phone, but
>> they're very poor quality and wouldn't allow for identification. What
>> would be the best route to take to report these officers? As a
>> cyclist, I despise inconsiderate cycling at the best of times, but
>> from people who are a) supposed to be enforcing the law, and b) whose
>> inconsiderate cycling is much more noticable because of their
>> position, it's unacceptable.
>>
>> If this was a normal cyclist, what would be the expected penalty if
>> caught doing this?
>
> Maybe a fine.
>
> Of course police are not subject to the same laws as everyone else and
> are rarely prosecuted, even when they kill someone.
>
> The only reason people cycle on pavements is because they are too
> scared to ride on our very dangerous roads, where almost anyone is
> allowed to loose control of their lethal machine in a so-called
> 'accident'.

I've never yet seen a frightened policeman. Talking out of your ****
again I see.

--
John Wright

I feel like an insane person with the ability to mimic sanity
 
Neil Williams wrote:
|| On Tue, 13 May 2008 22:06:31 +0100, Colin McKenzie
|| <[email protected]> wrote:
||
||| One-way streets are anti-cycling measures, and as such, should be
||| returned to 2-way operation, possibly with plugs or mode filters to
||| restrict undesirable motor vehicle use.
||
|| There are, in London, quite a lot of one-way streets that are two-way
|| For cycles only. Seems a good idea.
||
|| Neil
||

I well remember 50 years ago actually being lectured the by a cop for
'pushing' a bicycle the wrong way down a one way street as a shortcut, I've
never been absolutely certain, but was that, is that illegal?
 
John Wright <[email protected]> wrote:


> They should be, but not always, especially in rural areas. There is one
> I can think of on the A43 which was hidden behind a direction sign. Then
> the government said "all cameras must be visible and painted yellow so
> people can see them" but this one seemingly was unaffected, it stayed
> grey and hidden. This is why people think they are just there for
> revenue raising. Also see lots of other posts in uk.transport about what
> are known as scamera vans or talivans - these pop up in all sorts of
> places often without any warning at all.

I can't think of any 'hidden' caneras on the A43. They're all signposted
with the applicable speed limit at a reasonable distance from the camera
with plenty of time to brake down to 70mph even if one is travelling at
Warp 9.


OTOH the cameras on the A41 are all deliberately hidden behind road
signs and in one instance the trees on the verge have been allowed to
grow over the camera, to obscure it, but the branches in front of the
lens have all been neatly trimmed away.
 
In article <[email protected]>, OG says...

> Was it particuarly inconsiderate to anyone?
>
Irrelevent. Thr RTA applies to bicycles.


--
Conor

I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams
 
On 14 May, 07:21, Doug <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 13 May, 18:09, TimB <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> The only reason people cycle on pavements is because they are too
> scared to ride on our very dangerous roads,

Nonsense. Lots of the pathetic pavement peddlers ride on the footways
of roads which are perfectly safe to cycle on properly, when there is
not a car in sight, and sometimes even where motor vehicles are
banned. I frequently see them doing it along roads where I have been
cycling for years and never had any alarming incidents or near-misses.

While I agree that there will be some who do it out of fear of the
rest of the traffic, most are doing this for other reasons, such as:
- sheer hooliganism - enjoying being a nusiance to pedestrians.
- being part of the car-culture and wanting to show support for its
fantasy that the
bicycle is not a real vehicle (and so does not belong on the
carriageway).
- a feeling that they are being big bad rebels by breaking a rule.
- refusal to grow up - adults ride on carriageways, little kids play
with toys on
the footway.

Jon
 
Ivan wrote:
> Neil Williams wrote:
> || On Tue, 13 May 2008 22:06:31 +0100, Colin McKenzie
> || <[email protected]> wrote:
> ||
> ||| One-way streets are anti-cycling measures, and as such, should be
> ||| returned to 2-way operation, possibly with plugs or mode filters to
> ||| restrict undesirable motor vehicle use.
> ||
> || There are, in London, quite a lot of one-way streets that are two-way
> || For cycles only. Seems a good idea.
> ||
> || Neil
> ||
>
> I well remember 50 years ago actually being lectured the by a cop for
> 'pushing' a bicycle the wrong way down a one way street as a shortcut,
> I've never been absolutely certain, but was that, is that illegal?

Only in the ultimate nit-picking sense (in the same way as it might be
unlawful to push a pram the wrong way down a one-way street).
 
On May 13, 11:55 pm, Daniel Barlow <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] (Neil Williams) writes:
> > There are, in London, quite a lot of one-way streets that are two-way
> > for cycles only.  Seems a good idea.
>
> Until you meet a vehicle coming the other way which is not expecting
> you to be there.

To a driver encountering a cyclist on a one-way street, it doesn't
actually make that much difference which way the cyclist is going! A
cyclist takes up the same space whichever way he's pointing!

It might be an idea to keep on the driver's left, but on a single lane
one-way road, cyclists can of course be on either side.

Main problem is pedestrians looking the wrong way when crossing the
road.


--
Bartc
 
Bart wrote:
> On May 13, 11:55 pm, Daniel Barlow <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] (Neil Williams) writes:
>>> There are, in London, quite a lot of one-way streets that are two-way
>>> for cycles only. Seems a good idea.
>> Until you meet a vehicle coming the other way which is not expecting
>> you to be there.
>
> To a driver encountering a cyclist on a one-way street, it doesn't
> actually make that much difference which way the cyclist is going! A
> cyclist takes up the same space whichever way he's pointing!

The closing speed is increased, with the threat of more severe outcomes
to collisions which are themselves more likely in such circumstances.

> It might be an idea to keep on the driver's left, but on a single lane
> one-way road, cyclists can of course be on either side.
>
> Main problem is pedestrians looking the wrong way when crossing the
> road.

You surely mean "pedestrians looking the right way, and therefore not
spotting cyclists coming from the wrong direction".
 
Bart <[email protected]> writes:

> On May 13, 11:55 pm, Daniel Barlow <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] (Neil Williams) writes:
>> > There are, in London, quite a lot of one-way streets that are two-way
>> > for cycles only.  Seems a good idea.
>>
>> Until you meet a vehicle coming the other way which is not expecting
>> you to be there.
>
> To a driver encountering a cyclist on a one-way street, it doesn't
> actually make that much difference which way the cyclist is going! A
> cyclist takes up the same space whichever way he's pointing!

To a driver pulling out of a T-junction and not bothering to check
both ways because he "knows" the road he's joining is one-way, it may
make a significant difference to the cyclist coming from the other
side. As for example

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&h....088964&spn=0.009986,0.028324&z=15&iwloc=addr

Last time I used that road (it may have changed since) there was a
contraflow cycle lane on the section between Swallow St and City Road.


-dan
 
On Wed, 14 May 2008 15:49:53 +0100, JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:

>The closing speed is increased, with the threat of more severe outcomes
>to collisions which are themselves more likely in such circumstances.

Collisions are almost certainly *less* likely.

Cycling against the flow of traffic achieves 3 things:

1) The cyclist will see traffic that could affect them rather than be
taken by surprise by a car coming up from behind. (Few bicycles have
rearview mirrors).
2) The cyclist will get out of the way of the traffic rather than
keeping to the middle of the road and holding it up.
3) The cyclist will not need to glance over their shoulder every time
they need to move out more into the road due to potholes etc.

In some countries it is a rule of the road that pedestrians and
cyclists must travel on the opposite side of the road to motorised
traffic so that they will see it coming in time to get out of the way.

Which I believe is a sensible rule.

--
Cynic
 
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