Cycling (?) with a tarnished silver lining

Malcolm Stewart wrote ... [snip snip]

Quoted message said:

So am I doing something wrong*, or are there different grades of Shimano (counterfeit perhaps, 10
years ago?), because I simply cannot believe that

the

Quoted message said:

professionals would put up with 1% of what I'm getting in dodgy shifts,

jumps

Quoted message said:

after seemingly being in gear etc.

* Yes, I know about when to change gear, and not back-pedalling etc.

And gently pedalling forward ... to get the gear to change? (Apologies if that's completely obvious
to you already)

Once in gear it should not jump. Either something is not adjusted correctly, or it's broken. I'd
take it back to the dealer, put it in a gear that you know jumps, and get them to take it for a
spin, to agree that there's a problem ... but you probably already thought of that. Your expectation
of smooth running is completely reasonably.

(By the way, don't expect good performance using big-chainring to big-sprocket, or small chainring
to small sprocket - to much of an angle for the poor old chain)

m a t t <mmmDOTmmSUPERFLUOUS_CAPS@virginDOTnet> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Malcolm Stewart wrote ... [snip snip]

Quoted message said:

So am I doing something wrong*, or are there different grades of Shimano (counterfeit perhaps,
10 years ago?), because I simply cannot believe that the professionals would put up with 1% of
what I'm getting in dodgy shifts, jumps after seemingly being in gear etc.
* Yes, I know about when to change gear, and not back-pedalling etc.

Quoted message said:

And gently pedalling forward ... to get the gear to change? (Apologies if that's completely
obvious to you already)

Yes I know about this aspect.

Quoted message said:

Once in gear it should not jump. Either something is not adjusted correctly, or it's broken. I'd
take it back to the dealer, put it in a gear that you know jumps, and get them to take it for a
spin, to agree that there's a problem ... but you probably already thought of that. Your
expectation of smooth running is completely reasonably.

(By the way, don't expect good performance using big-chainring to big-sprocket, or small chainring
to small sprocket - to much of an angle for the poor old chain)

Thanks The jumping when in gear seems to be worst in the middle gears where the geometry should be
most favourable, and looking at the bike after adjustment, it does seem to be aligned correctly. (I
assume that alignment isn't to surveying standards? If it is, I have the gear and can check!)

--
M Stewart Milton Keynes, UK www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

"Malcolm Stewart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm 65 in a few days and am trying to get back into cycling after too many

years

Quoted message said:

of only driving a car. I bought a new "comfort(?)" style road bike 10

years ago

Quoted message said:

and I have done just 105 miles on it since new. I did a lot of cycling

when I

Quoted message said:

was in my teens but bikes have changed since then. In my case, for the

worse it

Quoted message said:

would seem! So what's the problem? The problem seems to be with the 12 speed Shimano

SIS

Quoted message said:

gears and Hyperglide drive system. I'm not getting, and have never got

(hence

Quoted message said:

the low total mileage), smooth gear changes nor smooth transmission once

The SIS system is at the cheapest end of the Shimano range, so you wouldn't expect the quality of
much more expensive systems, but if you set up the gears as described here, you should be OK, since
it is unlikely any of your components (e.g. chain) will be worn out after so few miles.

parktool.comFAQrindx.shtmlOpen ↗

--
Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W simonmason.karoo.netsimonmason.karoo.netOpen ↗

"Malcolm Stewart" <[email hidden]> wrote in

Quoted message said:

Thanks The jumping when in gear seems to be worst in the middle gears where the geometry should be
most favourable, and looking at the bike after

adjustment, it

Quoted message said:

does seem to be aligned correctly. (I assume that alignment isn't to

surveying

Quoted message said:

standards? If it is, I have the gear and can check!)

Jumping when in gear is due to incorrect inner cable tension. The article will show you how to cure
this. Good luck. Simon

Malcolm Stewart said:

I've read the FAQs, the instructions which came with the bike, and have downloaded "SIS Adjustment
Procedure" from the web. However instead of possibly making matters worse, I decided to ask a well
reputed local dealer to check out the drive train, and I've now got the bike back after
adjustment, and apart from new pedals which are much smoother than the old ones, the transmission
still doesn't change gear cleanly, nor provide consistently smooth transmission once in gear.

Can you be more precise please. What do you think happens to the chain? Does it happen in some gears
more than others? More when pedalling very gently, normally or strongly? When it jumps, does it stay
in gear or change to next? Which/when? Etc.

Try adjusting it yourself. It is not that difficult using trial and error (forget following
Shimano's instructions step by step). You'll most likely be able to spend more time and have more
opportunity to test it than the bike shop. It's unlikely that it'll end up worse if you keep at
it.

Check chain for stiff links. Check cables are not frayed and cables are taut when in the smallest
sprockets, then follow the advice in the following article (and also the Park one mentioned
previously) :

sheldonbrown.comderailer adjustment.htmlOpen ↗

If still no better, I suggest consulting a different bike shop. Last resort: replace shifters and
derailleurs for better ones.

~PB

Quoted message said:

The SIS system is at the cheapest end of the Shimano range

SIS simply stands for "Shimano Index System" and applies to all their ranges.

~PB

Pete Biggs <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Malcolm Stewart wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

instead of possibly making matters worse, I decided to ask a well reputed local dealer to check
out the drive train, and I've now got the bike back after adjustment, and apart from new pedals
which are much smoother than the old ones, the transmission still doesn't change gear cleanly,
nor provide consistently smooth transmission once in gear.

Can you be more precise please. What do you think happens to the chain? Does it happen in some
gears more than others? More when pedalling very gently, normally or strongly? When it jumps, does
it stay in gear or change to next? Which/when? Etc.

It seems to happen mostly in the middle ratios i.e. when the geometry should be close to optimum.
When the chain appears to jump, it frequently happens a short time after I've changed gear
thinking that this time it's gone OK, and I'm applying low to normal pressure on the pedals (bear
in mind that I'm trying to get fit after many years of doing little more than pushing a mouse!).
At the moment, I'm not sure whether the "jump" is associated with a change in ratio. More testing
to do tomorrow.

Quoted message said:

Try adjusting it yourself. It is not that difficult using trial and error (forget following
Shimano's instructions step by step). You'll most likely be able to spend more time and have more
opportunity to test it than the bike shop. It's unlikely that it'll end up worse if you keep at
it.

I guess it'll be worth knocking up a bike stand from some timber.

Quoted message said:

Check chain for stiff links. Check cables are not frayed and cables are taut when in the smallest
sprockets, then follow the advice in the following article (and also the Park one mentioned
previously) :

I've found the articles and will print them out.

Quoted message said:

sheldonbrown.comderailer adjustment.htmlOpen ↗

If still no better, I suggest consulting a different bike shop. Last resort: replace shifters and
derailleurs for better ones.

Seems sensible advice, but somewhat dispiriting. I wonder if I would have got better adjustment if
my bike had obviously cost £1000 or more?

Many thanks

--
M Stewart Milton Keynes, UK www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

Malcolm Stewart said:

I guess it'll be worth knocking up a bike stand from some timber.

That would be good if you could. However, although it's often considered bad practice, turning bike
upside down should suffice (providing you can ensure cables or anything son't get badly squashed or
scraped). The final tuning up can be done by riding a bit, twiddling a bit and so on.

Best of luck. I'm sorry that I'm still not clear what is going on from your description so can't
help any further at the moment.

~PB

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Malcolm Stewart
I'm 65 in a few days and am trying to get back into cycling after too many years of only driving a
car. I bought a new "comfort(?)" style road bike 10 years ago and I have done just 105 miles on it
since new. I did a lot of cycling when I was in my teens but bikes have changed since then. In my
case, for the worse it would seem! So what's the problem? The problem seems to be with the 12 speed
Shimano SIS gears and Hyperglide drive system. I'm not getting, and have never got (hence the low
total mileage), smooth gear changes nor smooth transmission once I'm in gear. I've read the FAQs,
the instructions which came with the bike, and have downloaded "SIS Adjustment Procedure" from the
web. However instead of possibly making matters worse, I decided to ask a well reputed local dealer
to check out the drive train, and I've now got the bike back after adjustment, and apart from new
pedals which are much smoother than the old ones, the transmission still doesn't change gear
cleanly, nor provide consistently smooth transmission once in gear. So am I doing something wrong*,
or are there different grades of Shimano (counterfeit perhaps, 10 years ago?), because I simply
cannot believe that the professionals would put up with 1% of what I'm getting in dodgy shifts,
jumps after seemingly being in gear etc.

* Yes, I know about when to change gear, and not back-pedalling etc.

Thanks for any suggestions

--
M Stewart Milton Keynes, UK www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

Have you tried lubrication? Cables like a dry lubricant like molybdenum disulfide, graphite, etc.

I'm using a paraffin suspension called White Lightening to lube my chain. Paraffin doesn't attract grime. A brass brush from the hardware store takes care of the build-up. If your chain makes noise it needs lube.

Bent or deformed links in the chain might be a problem. As someone else mentioned, you may have links in your chain that are stiff due to rust.

Check the retaining ring on the cassette. If the cassette is lose you can still ride the bike but, bad things may happen.

Check that the axel is seated all the way back on the drop-outs on both sides. Check the skewer to be sure it is holding the axel with enough force to keep it true. The brake calipers can be nudged to compensate for a misaligned wheel. You may have to nudge them back.

After ten years of little use and probably little lubrication, corrosion may be an issue somewhere in the system. Damp climates make this worse. I would expect a bike shop to have looked at all of these things. It wouldn't hurt to double check.

Malcolm Stewart said:

It seems to happen mostly in the middle ratios i.e. when the geometry should be close to optimum.
When the chain appears to jump, it frequently happens a short time after I've changed gear
thinking that this time it's gone OK, and I'm applying low to normal pressure on the pedals (bear
in mind that I'm trying to get fit after many years of doing little more than pushing a mouse!).
At the moment, I'm not sure whether the "jump" is associated with a change in ratio. More testing
to do tomorrow.

Maybe the chain has some stiff links if it has been sitting around for a while. Try taking it of and
check each link along the chain.

Ivor Cave

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The SIS system is at the cheapest end of the Shimano range

SIS simply stands for "Shimano Index System" and applies to all their ranges.

The cheapo ones just have "SIS" on a sticker on the rear mech, whereas the better quality ones have
Alivio, Altus, Acera etc. I assumed that he was referring to the base model in his post. Simon

Simon Mason <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The cheapo ones just have "SIS" on a sticker on the rear mech, whereas the better quality
ones have Alivio, Altus, Acera etc. I assumed that he was referring to the base model in his
post. Simon

Absolutely correct. Mine just says Shimano SIS. My base model (an Emmelle Promenade) seems to be in
the sub-basement area in that I can't find any way of adjusting the B-tension setting via an
adjustment screw. There's just 3 screws / bolts : H, L adjusters and the cable grip bolt. (I've
downloaded the various articles, so I know what I'm looking for, and Sheldon Brown indicates that
not all SIS have B-tension adjusters.) What I've tried this morning is to release the rear axle nut,
and using the very slight play in the rear forks set the derailleur jockey pulley a little further
away from the sprockets. Initial tests suggest that matters might have improved.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

--
M Stewart Milton Keynes, UK www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

"Malcolm Stewart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Absolutely correct. Mine just says Shimano SIS. My base model (an Emmelle Promenade) seems to be
in the sub-basement area

in

Quoted message said:

that I can't find any way of adjusting the B-tension setting via an

adjustment

Quoted message said:

screw. There's just 3 screws / bolts : H, L adjusters and the cable grip

bolt.

Quoted message said:

(I've downloaded the various articles, so I know what I'm looking for, and Sheldon Brown indicates
that not all SIS have B-tension adjusters.) What I've tried this morning is to release the rear
axle nut, and using

the very

Quoted message said:

slight play in the rear forks set the derailleur jockey pulley a little

further

Quoted message said:

away from the sprockets. Initial tests suggest that matters might have improved.

Hi, I think some already suggested that it may be due to cable problems. The first thing you should
check, if the bike has been in storage for some time, is the condition of the cable where it runs
through the loop of outer sheathing just before your rear mech. Is the cable rusty or frayed? Is the
outer sheathing kinked, or is it full of several years worth of solidified road gunk? This has been
the cause of problems similar to yours for me. Your local bike shop (LBS) will have these in stock.
Or even your local Halfords.

Tip: These days, (decent) cable outers come already preloaded with grease, so don't be tempted to
squirt WD40 down them as this will dissolve it.

--
Cheerful pedalling John Mallard take out the_bike_ to reply

John Mallard <john_mallard@the_bike_lineone.net> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Malcolm Stewart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Absolutely correct. Mine just says Shimano SIS.

Quoted message said:

Hi, I think some already suggested that it may be due to cable problems. The first thing you
should check, if the bike has been in storage for some time, is the condition of the cable
where it runs through the loop of outer sheathing just before your rear mech. Is the cable
rusty or frayed? Is the outer sheathing kinked, or is it full of several years worth of
solidified road gunk?

Hi John, LBS = local bike shop!! Many thanks for that tip, I hadn't guessed what the initials meant,
and was beginning to think it was some chain who didn't advertise!

Thanks for your interest - I've noted the points. Cable etc. is clean and unkinked as the bike has
had so little use. (100 miles in 10 years.)

I'm beginning to think that I may have cleared the problem. Have now been out twice for short test
rides after using the small amount of play in the rear-axle hole to get the jockey pulley set
further away from the sprockets. (There's no B-tension screw.) It's never felt so smooth, (had to
adjust the cable length slightly as well and changes are cleaner now) so perhaps it's always been
too close, and my TOTAL lack of experience with Shimano stopped me making an earlier diagnosis. (My
early years were with Sturmey Archer hubs.) BUT why didn't my Shimano certified LBS sort it out? As
far as I can see all they did in a positive way was to grease the cable. Fortunately I spoke to an
old friend last night who suggested I check out the jockey pulley area, and found excessive movement
possible towards the sprockets.

Cheers

--
M Stewart Milton Keynes, UK www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

DurangoKid <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Malcolm Stewart said:

I'm 65 in a few days and am trying to get back into cycling after too many years of only
driving a car. I bought a new "comfort(?)" style road bike 10 years ago and I have done just
105 miles on it since new. I did a lot of cycling when I was in my teens but bikes have
changed since then. In my case, for the worse it would seem! So what's the problem? The
problem seems to be with the 12 speed Shimano SIS gears and Hyperglide drive system. I'm not
getting, and have never got (hence the low total mileage), smooth gear changes nor smooth
transmission once I'm in gear. I've read the FAQs, the instructions which came with the bike,
and have downloaded "SIS Adjustment Procedure" from the web. However instead of possibly
making matters worse, I decided to ask a well reputed local dealer to check out the drive
train, and I've now got the bike back after adjustment, and apart from new pedals which are
much smoother than the old ones, the transmission still doesn't change gear cleanly, nor
provide consistently smooth transmission once in gear. So am I doing something wrong*, or are
there different grades of Shimano (counterfeit perhaps, 10 years ago?), because I simply
cannot believe that the professionals would put up with 1% of what I'm getting in dodgy
shifts, jumps after seemingly being in gear etc.
* Yes, I know about when to change gear, and not back-pedalling etc. Thanks for any
suggestions
--
M Stewart Milton Keynes, UK www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

Have you tried lubrication? Cables like a dry lubricant like molybdenum disulfide, graphite, etc.

I'm using a paraffin suspension called White Lightening to lube my chain. Paraffin doesn't attract
grime. A brass brush from the hardware store takes care of the build-up. If your chain makes noise
it needs lube.

Bent or deformed links in the chain might be a problem. As someone else mentioned, you may have
links in your chain that are stiff due to rust.

Check the retaining ring on the cassette. If the cassette is lose you can still ride the bike but,
bad things may happen.

Check that the axel is seated all the way back on the drop-outs on both sides. Check the skewer to
be sure it is holding the axel with enough force to keep it true. The brake calipers can be nudged
to compensate for a misaligned wheel. You may have to nudge them back.

After ten years of little use and probably little lubrication, corrosion may be an issue somewhere
in the system. Damp climates make this worse. I would expect a bike shop to have looked at all of
these things. It wouldn't hurt to double check.

the basic Shimano SIS system is really rubbish and incapable of the fine adjustment that is needed
for proper road riding. Ditch it in favour of a new Shimano gruppo or better still upgrade to
Campagnolo, chorus or record, which will give years of brilliant service

Hi all,

Thanks to all who responded. I adjusted the "phantom" B-tension setting on my bike (there's no
screw), and stopped the jockey pulley contacting the sprockets, and then adjusted the SIS cable
length for optimum.

Had a decent length trial run this morning, and my bike is now so much better than before. 5 miles
with clean changes, and no jumping when in gear... ...better than when new!

--
M Stewart Milton Keynes, UK www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

Malcolm Stewart <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm 65 in a few days and am trying to get back into cycling after too many

years

Quoted message said:

of only driving a car. I bought a new "comfort(?)" style road bike 10 years

ago

Quoted message said:

and I have done just 105 miles on it since new. I did a lot of cycling when I was in my teens but
bikes have changed since then. In my case, for the worse

it

Quoted message said:

would seem! So what's the problem? The problem seems to be with the 12 speed Shimano SIS gears and
Hyperglide drive system. I'm not getting, and have never got (hence the low total mileage), smooth
gear changes nor smooth transmission once I'm

in

Quoted message said:

gear.

snipped