Cycling vs running up hill

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Steve Gerdemann) said:

The time trial on the L'Alpe d'Huez got me wondering. Is
it possible for a world-class runner to beat a cyclists
time on a steep enough slope? Obviously on level ground a
bike is much faster but when the road turns up the cyclist
has the disadvantage of having to lift more weight up the
hill. So if the hill is steep enough can a runner beat a
cyclist and if so how steep does the hill have to be for
the runner to win.

Just wondering Steve Gerdemann

Many years ago I read that above 15% leads to walking being
more efficient.

MrBob

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"Steve Gerdemann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The time trial on the L'Alpe d'Huez got me wondering. Is
it possible for a world-class runner to beat a cyclists
time on a steep enough slope? Obviously on level ground a
bike is much faster but when the road turns up the cyclist
has the disadvantage of having to lift more weight up the
hill. So if the hill is steep enough can a runner beat a
cyclist and if so how steep does the hill have to be for
the runner to win.

Just wondering Steve Gerdemann

I don't know about world-class, but I followed a runner
about 2 miles up a Canyon in Utah once... boy that was a ego
killer! Couldn't even gain on the dude. Only upside was he
never looked behind until he turned around. I'm glad he
didn't. If he had seen me and then dropped me, I don't know
if I would have ever gotten on a bike again 🙂

Next time you get to wondering, Google.

tinyurl.com34jmlOpen ↗

J.

"Steve Gerdemann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The time trial on the L'Alpe d'Huez got me wondering. Is
it possible for a world-class runner to beat a cyclists
time on a steep enough slope? Obviously on level ground a
bike is much faster but when the road turns up the cyclist
has the disadvantage of having to lift more weight up the
hill. So if the hill is steep enough can a runner beat a
cyclist and if so how steep does the hill have to be for
the runner to win.

Just wondering Steve Gerdemann

[email hidden] (Steve Gerdemann) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Is it possible for a world-class runner to beat a cyclists
time on a steep enough slope?

Yes.

JT

In article <[email hidden]>,
MrBob <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

(Steve Gerdemann) said:

The time trial on the L'Alpe d'Huez got me wondering. Is
it possible for a world-class runner to beat a cyclists
time on a steep enough slope? Obviously on level ground
a bike is much faster but when the road turns up the
cyclist has the disadvantage of having to lift more
weight up the hill. So if the hill is steep enough can a
runner beat a cyclist and if so how steep does the hill
have to be for the runner to win.

Just wondering Steve Gerdemann

Many years ago I read that above 15% leads to walking
being more efficient.

Sounds about right. A retired co-worker was an avid trail-
runner and one-time competitive cyclist (he regularly took
his bicycle or jogged to work until he retired, and he had a
longer commute than me).

His analysis was that on the steepest trails (and 15% sounds
about right to me), the joggers could outrun the cyclists.
At some point on certain very steep and very technical
descents, joggers can have an advantage over most, but
probably not all cyclists, if the descent is at least
theoretically navigable on a bike.

The issue there becomes whether or not the cyclist can
descend without dismounting. If they can, they probably win.
If not, advantage: jogger.

Sadly, the famous Welsh Man v Horse v Bike race has had to
temporarily discontinue the v Bike part, apparently due to
legal technicalities.

Look under June:

lafesta.co.ukbizarre.htmlOpen ↗

The few published accounts I can find indicate that serious
mountain bikers have participated in this 22-mile race for a
while (including Jacquie Phelan), and the very best cyclists
have beaten both man and horse. It has been remarkably
close, but reports I have indicate that no solo runner has
ever beaten the winning horse on this course, and there is a
#24,000 prize for any runner to do so.

Of course, You could construct a simple obstacle that would
simply and massively favor any one of rider, runner, or
horse, thus demonstrating that victory is very course
dependent:

For horse to win, simply put one or more horse-jump (say, 5'
or so?) in the course. Horses seem to win on relatively
short power courses where the efficiency of a bike counts
for little, and on obviously horse-specific obstacles where
bikes are at a disadvantage.

For the runner to win, put in one or more switchback climbs
too steep for a horse to easily navigate, or more simply, a
6' ladder to the top of a cliff.

For the cyclist, a super-steep, non-technical descent will
favor them above all others, or a horse-unfriendly obstacle
such as a ladder bridge or even a cow crossing too wide to
be jumped by a horse. In general, the longer the course, the
more the bicycle is favored. At the extreme level, I don't
think a horse and rider could outpace any stage of the Tour
de France, for example.

Horses for courses,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

The last year I lived in NorCal (1985) there was a runner
vs. cyclist event scheduled for one of the hills in San
Francisco, I've long forgotten exactly which one. I never
heard about the results (pre internet!)

Isn't there an event on Mt. Washington, NH that pits
wheelers against runners? Or at least there used to be.

I know, google it.

"Steve Gerdemann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The time trial on the L'Alpe d'Huez got me wondering. Is
it possible for a world-class runner to beat a cyclists
time on a steep enough slope? Obviously on level ground a
bike is much faster but when the road turns up the cyclist
has the disadvantage of having to lift more weight up the
hill. So if the hill is steep enough can a runner beat a
cyclist and if so how steep does the hill have to be for
the runner to win.

Just wondering Steve Gerdemann

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Arthg said:

The last year I lived in NorCal (1985) there was a runner
vs. cyclist event

Not versus, but one before or after the Marmotte
(cyclosportive around Alpe d'Huez) there's a running race
from Valloire up the Galibier...

Bestest Handsander said:

"Steve Gerdemann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The time trial on the L'Alpe d'Huez got me wondering. Is
it possible for a world-class runner to beat a cyclists
time on a steep enough slope? Obviously on level ground
a bike is much faster but when the road turns up the
cyclist has the disadvantage of having to lift more
weight up the hill. So if the hill is steep enough can a
runner beat a cyclist and if so how steep does the hill
have to be for the runner to win.

Just wondering Steve Gerdemann

I don't know about world-class, but I followed a runner
about 2 miles up a Canyon in Utah once... boy that was a
ego killer! Couldn't even gain on the dude. Only upside
was he never looked behind until he turned around. I'm
glad he didn't. If he had seen me and then dropped me, I
don't know if I would have ever gotten on a bike again 🙂

Ever have a bunch of in-line skaters stay with you on
rolling terrain? Grrrrrr...

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
dentaltwins.comdentaltwins.comOpen ↗

[email hidden] (Steve Gerdemann) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The time trial on the L'Alpe d'Huez got me wondering. Is
it possible for a world-class runner to beat a cyclists
time on a steep enough slope? Obviously on level ground a
bike is much faster but when the road turns up the cyclist
has the disadvantage of having to lift more weight up the
hill. So if the hill is steep enough can a runner beat a
cyclist and if so how steep does the hill have to be for
the runner to win.

Just wondering Steve Gerdemann

37.23 degrees.

Quoted message said:

one before or after the Marmotte

one day

[email hidden] (Steve Gerdemann) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The time trial on the L'Alpe d'Huez got me wondering. Is
it possible for a world-class runner to beat a cyclists
time on a steep enough slope? Obviously on level ground a
bike is much faster but when the road turns up the cyclist
has the disadvantage of having to lift more weight up the
hill. So if the hill is steep enough can a runner beat a
cyclist and if so how steep does the hill have to be for
the runner to win.

Just wondering Steve Gerdemann

Based on the calculations and some heft assumptions - the
maximum angle at which a bicycle can maintain forward
motion - I think somewhere in the low 30% range is more
likely from personal experience. When the runner takes over
is when they can "scramble" by using their arms for an
extra point of contact.

The logical next question is - over what distance?

westernwheelers.orgRatingCOpen ↗
limbs.html

In 1976 A buddy of mine did the Mt. Washington Hill Climb
bike race and most of the US Olympic Road Team was there
too. He was a decent x-country runner in college and
somewhere near the top he got off his bike and ran with it
to the finsh and won the race.

-WG

For years the record in climbing the Mt. Washington Rd was
held by runners. The first person to break that record on a
bike was, I believe, John Allis in the 1970s.

JT

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS said:

Bestest Handsander said:

"Steve Gerdemann" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The time trial on the L'Alpe d'Huez got me wondering.
Is it possible for a world-class runner to beat a
cyclists time on a steep enough slope? Obviously on
level ground a bike is much faster but when the road
turns up the cyclist has the disadvantage of having to
lift more weight up the hill. So if the hill is steep
enough can a runner beat a cyclist and if so how steep
does the hill have to be for the runner to win.

Just wondering Steve Gerdemann

I don't know about world-class, but I followed a runner
about 2 miles up a Canyon in Utah once... boy that was
a ego killer! Couldn't even gain on the dude. Only
upside was he never looked behind until he turned
around. I'm glad he didn't. If he had seen me and then
dropped me, I don't know if I would have ever gotten on
a bike again 🙂

Ever have a bunch of in-line skaters stay with you on
rolling terrain? Grrrrrr...

No. Have you tried doing intervals?

Currently building up a 21-speed BMX so I can chase down
triathletes in style, to be followed by the 7-speed folding
bike from Hell (actually from Austria),

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club

Near here, there _was_ a multisport event that had a
mountain bike event and a mountain running event on the same
course, albeit in opposite directions.

It's basically a 21km mountain race; course description is
here: <http://www.bevmultisport.com/pulpitdescription.html>

Best runners just beat the best mountain bikers...
<bevmultisport.comprpresults02.htmlOpen ↗

A couple of years ago Martin Fiz (that was a top level
marathoner) challenged any cyclist in a race to climb the
hardest section of the Angliru.

The challenge was picked up by Chechu Rubiera (and O.Sevilla
was supossed to have been interested too), but just one day
before the competion Fiz claimed he got injured . I do not
know what happened next, but this challenge had a lot of
media coverage in Spain. Even the athletes were a bit taken
aback by its repecusion.

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rcousine-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]-
news.com>, MrBob <[email hidden]-

e.com.dontspamonme said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

(Steve Gerdemann) said:

The time trial on the L'Alpe d'Huez got me wondering.
Is it possible for a world-class runner to beat a
cyclists time on a steep enough slope? Obviously on
level ground a bike is much faster but when the road
turns up the cyclist has the disadvantage of having to
lift more weight up the hill. So if the hill is steep
enough can a runner beat a cyclist and if so how steep
does the hill have to be for the runner to win.

Just wondering Steve Gerdemann

Many years ago I read that above 15% leads to walking
being more efficient.

Sounds about right. A retired co-worker was an avid trail-
runner and one-time competitive cyclist (he regularly took
his bicycle or jogged to work until he retired, and he had
a longer commute than me).

His analysis was that on the steepest trails (and 15%
sounds about right to me), the joggers could outrun the
cyclists. At some point on certain very steep and very
technical descents, joggers can have an advantage over
most, but probably not all cyclists, if the descent is at
least theoretically navigable on a bike.

The issue there becomes whether or not the cyclist can
descend without dismounting. If they can, they probably
win. If not, advantage: jogger.

Sadly, the famous Welsh Man v Horse v Bike race has had to
temporarily discontinue the v Bike part, apparently due to
legal technicalities.

Look under June:

lafesta.co.ukbizarre.htmlOpen ↗

The few published accounts I can find indicate that
serious mountain bikers have participated in this 22-mile
race for a while (including Jacquie Phelan), and the very
best cyclists have beaten both man and horse. It has been
remarkably close, but reports I have indicate that no solo
runner has ever beaten the winning horse on this course,
and there is a #24,000 prize for any runner to do so.

Of course, You could construct a simple obstacle that
would simply and massively favor any one of rider, runner,
or horse, thus demonstrating that victory is very course
dependent:

For horse to win, simply put one or more horse-jump (say,
5' or so?) in the course. Horses seem to win on relatively
short power courses where the efficiency of a bike counts
for little, and on obviously horse-specific obstacles
where bikes are at a disadvantage.

For the runner to win, put in one or more switchback
climbs too steep for a horse to easily navigate, or more
simply, a 6' ladder to the top of a cliff.

For the cyclist, a super-steep, non-technical descent will
favor them above all others, or a horse-unfriendly
obstacle such as a ladder bridge or even a cow crossing
too wide to be jumped by a horse. In general, the longer
the course, the more the bicycle is favored. At the
extreme level, I don't think a horse and rider could
outpace any stage of the Tour de France, for example.

Horses for courses,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
sfu.cawiredcolaOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club