In aus.bicycle on 29 Nov 2006 23:03:36 -0800
Bleve <
[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Not the same thing.
>
> Respectfully, I don't agree with you, in this context.
I think we are definitely not going to agree on this.
>
>> The idea is, because people are human, to try and move the requirement
>> away from having to be perfectly skilled and perfectly capable.
>
> And then, there's the real world. Where things will always be more
> hazardous than we would like.
Yes. But there's this continuum. Meaning that there will always be
crashes no matter how skilled you are.
But there's also the chance to decrease the number of them.
If you want to "punish" people for not being perfect and say "the
world is a bad place, you ahve to cope always" then there's no reason
to build good roads.
Think, for example, of bad road design for pushbikes. Is it important
to make the road design as good as it can be, or is it up to the rider
only?
Could it be sensible for there to be both? That is make the road the
best you can, and for riders to do the best they can?
Why all one way, why all on the rider?
>> > Assuming that (within reasonable limits) the road is safe when you
>> > can't see it, gets you dead.
>>
>> Then you can't ride at all. Or you have to ride at walking pace in
>> the dark.
>
> "within reasonable limits".
>
> I've ridden at walking pace in fog, and very slowly through areas known
> to have wildlife etc, and I've chosen when and where I've ridden to
> minimise risk.
And so do most people. But I understood you to say that there's no
way that *any* crash due to conditions isn't the rider's fault.
If, for example, you had been slow for wildlife, and you still came
unstuck because of something, then your fault? Must be... but
supposing that something was someone else's careless roadworks that
you had not been able to forsee. Still your fault? You weren't going
"too fast" for the conditions as you understood them.
>> All you can do is to try and raise the 'enough'. The roadbuilders
>> have a responsibility to help. They can't make it foolproof, they can
>> do a hell of a lot.
>
> We have a responsibility to ourselves to ride according to how it is,
> not how we'd like it to be.
And you keep missing the point I'm making, so I can't be being clear
enough.
Do the roadbuilders have *any* responsibility at all in your view?
>> I was doing a reasonable speed for normal road conditions. Not for
>> stupidly handled roadworks.
>
> Except you weren't, because you outrode what you could see.
I can see why you say that, but I think it's not a real world answer.
Because you can never ever see around a blind corner. It's not
possible.
This is the point I'm making - it took two mistakes. I was not
perfect, but nor was I reckless. What I was was less than perfect,
but if the road menders had done the job I could reasonably expect
then there wouldn't have been a problem.
>
> I'm talking about taking responsibility for our behaviour on the road,
> not palming it off to fate or bad roadwork signs. The fact is, the
I'm saying that both have to be responsible.
Do you believe that all fault has to lie with the rider? Or that
others have some responsibility?
> roads *aren't* going to get significantly better, car drivers *aren't*
No? The ATSB has finally decided that road design matters, the latest
report includes what is going to be done.
In NSW they have finally mandated that all metal plates over roadworks
must be non-slip. This time last year I saw no non-silp coatings, in
the last couple of weeks every plate I've seen has been coated.
> going to stop being careless, tired, yapping/sms'ing on phones etc, and
> we, if we want to stay alive, have to ride in risk-minimising ways in
> order to survive in the jungle. Every single crash I've been involved
> in I could have avoided by smarter route selection and/or less
> 'enthusiasm' to go faster than the conditions warranted. This thread
> started about perceptions of risk taking, and that's what I'm
> discussing.
I think you are wanting perfection. I'm wanting what can be
minimised to be minimised, which isn't about absolving riders from
blame, it's about trying to reduce the crash problem.
Mandating proper cleanup of roadworks won't stop people splatting
themselves. It will reduce the number who do.
Make survival easier, more will survive.
Zebee
I remember spending a Friday night in A&E and being told by one of
