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Cycling in Tuscany.

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4 May 2004
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8 May 2004
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GearóId Ó Laoi/
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  1. My wife Mary and I did a cycletour in Tuscany just now. We
    flew Ryanair to Pisa from Stanstead. Pisa airport is
    practically in the centre of the city. We stayed overnight
    in Pisa, went to see the tower (it and the whole square have
    the 'wow' factor ++), cycled next day over Monte Serra to
    Lucca. This is a savage climb. Near Lucca the traffic is
    heavy. The old town of Lucca is superb,.

    Next day via cappanori, altopascio, Spianate, Cerreto Guidi
    Vinci, Carmingnano etc. went to Florence. The first 20 miles
    of this was in a built up area, after that increasingly
    hilly and nice. Last 10 miles in Florence busy busy, Next
    day, day off to sight-see. Saw Duomo, went up bell-tower (a
    must), saw Duomo, Uffizi gallery (BIG disappointment. Not a
    patch on the Prado in Madrid), several basilicas, The
    Palacio Vecchio etc. Impression. Everything in Florence
    costs. Some of the stuff is stunning. Would I go back. NO.

    Next day Through Porto Romano (Road to Siena), Certosa, San
    Andrea, S.Casciano,
    S.Pancrazio, Monterspertoli, Castefioentino, Certaldo, San
    Gimingnano. VERY VERY HILLY. Hard stuff. Beautiful when
    out in country. San Gimingnano gorgeous.

    Next day.Quartaia to near Casole d'Elsa, Mensanello,
    Maggiano, near San Columba Siena. Ferocious climbing. Very
    quiet in middle. Old city of Siena lovely. Piazza del Campo
    stunning. Rather city to Florence.

    Next day South west through Ancaiano Pieve a Scupola
    (Variably spelt ) Superb hilly cycling, very quiet, Casole
    d'Elsa, Volterra. Last 10 miles or so on busy road. This day
    was savagely hilly. It was raining at the end. A great day's
    cycling. Volterra on minorish road north slight to east
    (Superb) via Castagno, then north to San Vivaldo, Montaione,
    Castagno again to San Gimignano. Superb country cycling,
    very hilly.

    Last day. San Gimignano, Castagno, San Vivaldo, Pontedra
    Pisa. The Pontedra Pisa road is wide, not too busy and
    the IDEAL way in and out of the city. This was a fine
    easy cycle.

    Observations. Tuscany is the most difficult terrain I've
    ever cycled in in 45 bike tours, except maybe Devon and
    Cornwall. Mary and I usually do about 60 mpd, but did only
    about 35 here. Other cyclists we met there were doing about
    the same. My advice, Stay South of a line drawn east of
    Pisa. If you want to see Florence and Lucca, get the train.
    English cyclists we met used the train a lot and said that
    they were bike friendly and no problem. The countryside if
    gorgeous but not up north where it's a huge urban sprawl.

    Food: Big ballyhoo in tourist books about this. It's POOR.
    We got 2 good meals in the week and they were expensive. You
    will get far better Italian food in an Italian restaurant in
    Ireland or Germany of Britain, than in Tuscany. The bread is
    unsalted and has all the culinary delights of sawdust. This
    was the opinion of almost all the tourists we met. The red
    wine is superb. Italy is expensive, and to my surprise MORE
    expensive than Ireland. In Ireland you may pay more for a
    main-course but you'll get the works, potatoes, or rice
    etc., loads of vegetable, loads of meat and it will taste
    really good. In Tuscany you get multiple courses which are
    samples, and adding up the cost you are talking about maybe
    25% or 30% more for greatly inferior food. I am a foodie,
    and an omnivore, and have eaten extensively in numerous
    countries. Breakfasts were adequate. The people were for the
    most part friendly.

    If you cycle in Tuscany, The Map I used was the Edizioni
    Multigraphic Toscana 1:200,000

    On this Motorways are red and then there are thick green
    (main roads) and thin green (other main roads), yellow and
    white. The thin green are the best option. These tend to be
    a little less hilly than the yellow, have light traffic and
    are scenic. Stay away from thick green, as they have evil
    traffic and are too narrow for their purpose. The yellow
    are fine but need careful navigation. The white tend to
    come to an end.

    Would I recommend Tuscany.

    Yes if you are prepared to be disappointed with the food,
    and are prepared to put up with endless 10%+ gradients. You
    will not see better scenery than the the area around and
    south of San Gimingnano, etc. You must choose the roads
    carefully.

  2. On Tue, 4 May 2004 07:45:42 +0100, Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee wrote:

    Snipped excellent ride report.

    Thanks Garry,

    I haven't cycled in Tuscany but concur with your appraisal
    that Florence is overrated. I found Pisa and Siena much
    more pleasing.
    --
    Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He is not only dull
    himself, he is the cause of dullness in others." -Samuel
    Johnson www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

  3. Well, Garry, after so many years we read each other's,
    more or less amusing, posts I would have expected you
    would drop me a message, if not you would entertain me
    while riding abreast.

    Tuscany is beautiful and very varied throughout; you
    experienced a rather small portion of it. Believe me. The
    food disappointing? I can't dispute your taste, but other
    people might differ in this respect.

    The grades of the hills? We got a whole range; one has just
    to know where he is heading, and which way.

    Yours

    Sergio Pisa

  4. I cycled through Tuscany almost two years ago. It was hot
    (late June), a little smoggy, very hilly, and, for the most
    part, very nice bicycling. Florence was great. I think its
    cathedral is one of the most sublime buildings I have ever
    seen. Right up there with the Mesquita in the category of
    'mortals created this?'

    Traffic in Prato and Florence was heavy, but, if you got
    into the flow of it, not a problem. Some of the hills are
    steep, but Tuscany isn't as steep as western Pennsylvania in
    the US, and the views are much better. Food was good, people
    were friendly, and I enjoyed the culture.

    I would go back.

    Mark <http://www.cs.unca.edu/~boyd/bicycling.html>

    PS My ride report, with some nice images is at

    cs.unca.eduday20.htm
    and day21.

    I rode from Prado through Florence and Volterra to Leghorn
    where I took the ferry to Corsica.

  5. "Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    Would I recommend Tuscany.

    Yes if you are prepared to be disappointed with the food,
    and are prepared to put up with endless 10%+ gradients.
    You will not see better scenery than the the area around
    and south of San Gimingnano, etc. You must choose the
    roads carefully.

    Surprised on two counts. When we toured Umbria and Tuscany
    two years ago, covering much of the same area of Tuscany you
    visited, we found the food to be overall excellent. Better
    than any place I have toured, much better than France. We
    were eating large quantities and had superb food. No
    disappointments. That included Florence, where we ate at a
    hole in the wall place in an alley near the Uffizzi, and
    place across the Arno near Ponte Vecchio, and at a
    restaurant in the Santa Croce area. Only complaint here was
    with the service and atmosphere at the place near Ponte
    Vecchio; we were seated near a chain smoker who insisted on
    keeping one [censored] after another lit and at the ready.

    Also surprised at the 10%+ grades. I mapped our routes,
    recorded the tracks in a GPS, and analyzed the data; only
    road we had that was over 10% was a short piece between San
    Gimignano and Certaldo, and that was downhill. Lots of 8-
    9%, but that is similar to what I ride daily so no big
    deal. We had some great descents; my significant other
    still raves about the descent down SP47 from San Gimignano
    as we headed towards Volterra - smooth pavement, steep
    enough to keep momentum but not so steep as to need to
    brake much, long sweeping curves. That was a great day
    (only day we did not hit rain); after Volterra we had a
    great ride down and across to the next hill town to the
    west, Montecatini Val di Cecina. Wanted to spend more time
    there, but had to hoof back to Volterra before dark. That
    was an all up and down day, but again nothing over 8-9% and
    all very pleasant riding.

    On the Uffizzi, not sure what the current status is, but
    they are supposedly doing a massive renovation so they might
    have some of the stuff in storage in prep for that.

    My favorite map set is the Touring Club Italiano series;
    will be carrying the relevant portions for my trip to the
    Dolomites, Alps, and lakes of Lombardy next month.

    Cheers,

    - rick

  6. Most of the really steep gradients I encountered and my
    measure of 15% I've confirmed at home with an inclinometer,
    is where my front wheel is inclined to rise, were on yellow
    or white roads on the maps. This was before I started on the
    bigger roads. Particularly bad meal items I and Mary had
    were.. There was one road I went down by mistake which was
    so steep that when I came up it was all I could do to push
    the bike. It was totally unrideable and about 30%.

    1. White beans, just boiled. No sauce, nothing.
    2. A fancy chicken dish in Hotel La Cisterna in San Jimmy
    which did not have a texture like chicken at all, and was
    completely tasteless.
    3. A sandwich in a bar made with stale bread.
    4. A spaghetti carbonara with about 1cc of meat, which never
    saw an egg. My daughter makes superb carbonara as does my
    local Italian restaurant.
    5. Guinea fowl (my favourite meat) cooked just sitting in a
    pool of olive oil, no sauce, having had all its taste
    extracted.
    6. Underdone french fries with the texture of
    paralysed worms.
    7. Coffee about 50 degrees centigrade. I don't want to go
    on because Sergio will get cross and I don't want
    that!. He's a good guy and I did have a couple of
    really good meals.

    Do you want me to tell lies???

  7. "Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    Do you want me to tell lies???

    Garry,

    No. Just wanted to point out that your experience is not
    universal; I think, and it is my experience, that it is
    possible to find good food, and even excellent food, in
    Tuscany. Everything we had, from pasta with truffles to
    guinea fowl to wild boar were all meals to write home about.
    Just so amazing that we found everything so universally
    good, and you found the opposite. Wonder why the difference?

    - rick

  8. "Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    Do you want me to tell lies???

    Garry,

    No. Just wanted to point out that your experience is
    not universal; I think, and it is my experience, that
    it is possible to find good food, and even excellent
    food, in Tuscany. Everything we had, from pasta with
    truffles to guinea fowl to wild boar were all meals to
    write home about.

    it could just be (I don't know) that generally the standard
    of food in restaurants in Europe is far higher than that in
    USA. I've been to Canada but never yet to the USA. I've
    cycled in Greece, Spain, Portugal, Germany, France, Italy,
    Austria, Ireland, England, Scotland, Corsica, Sardinia,
    Switzerland, Andorra. This was the worst I've come across.
    It could also be that I was staying in big tourist spots,
    and you weren't. I was not alone in my estimation. Germans,
    Americans, Aussies and Brits were complaining about the
    standards, and generally people don't. Maybe Italy is
    getting complacent.

  9. Rick Warner said:

    "Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    Do you want me to tell lies???

    Garry,

    No. Just wanted to point out that your experience is not
    universal; I think, and it is my experience, that it is
    possible to find good food, and even excellent food, in
    Tuscany. Everything we had, from pasta with truffles to
    guinea fowl to wild boar were all meals to write home
    about. Just so amazing that we found everything so
    universally good, and you found the opposite. Wonder why
    the difference?

    - rick

    I've been to Tuscany several times and I wouldn't say that
    the food was universally good. It hasn't been universally
    bad either. The place where Italian food is most
    consistently good is, in my experience, Germany although I'd
    concede that the best Italian food in Germany probably isn't
    as good as the best in Italy.

    The best Italian meal I've ever had was in Saronno (name of
    restaurant forgotten) followed by Paris.

    To bring this back to topic my bike has Campy Centaur!
    --
    Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "I feel so miserable
    without you, it's almost like having you here." -Stephen
    Bishop www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

  10. "Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    it could just be (I don't know) that generally the
    standard of food in restaurants in Europe is far higher
    than that in USA. I've been to Canada but never yet to the
    USA. I've cycled in Greece, Spain, Portugal, Germany,
    France, Italy, Austria, Ireland, England, Scotland,
    Corsica, Sardinia, Switzerland, Andorra. This was the
    worst I've come across. It could also be that I was
    staying in big tourist spots, and you weren't. I was not
    alone in my estimation. Germans, Americans, Aussies and
    Brits were complaining about the standards, and generally
    people don't. Maybe Italy is getting complacent.

    Garry,

    My food standards are quite high, on any scale. I have lived
    and worked on 3 continents, and travelled extensively on 5
    continents. I am a very accomplished cook/chef. I am not
    comparing food in Italy with anything mediocre by any
    standards; my personal standards are quite high. And it was
    only 20 months ago that I toured in that area, so not enough
    time for 'complacency' to be the answer. Perhaps my 'radar'
    for good places is a bit more sensitive; who knows. Will get
    to try it again, soon; departure for Venice and the
    Dolomites and Alps is just over 5 weeks away ;-)

    - rick

  11. I've also had superb Italian food in Germany. Also in
    Ireland, England, France and previously in Italy, but in the
    North. The food in Sardinia was not so good, but I got the
    best pizza ever in Sardinia.

  12. Rick Warner said:

    "Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Gearóid Ó Laoi/Garry Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message


    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    it could just be (I don't know) that generally the
    standard of food in restaurants in Europe is far higher
    than that in USA. I've been to Canada but never yet to
    the USA. I've cycled in Greece, Spain, Portugal, Germany,
    France, Italy, Austria, Ireland, England, Scotland,
    Corsica, Sardinia, Switzerland, Andorra. This was the
    worst I've come across. It could also be that I was
    staying in big tourist spots, and you weren't. I was not
    alone in my estimation. Germans, Americans, Aussies and
    Brits were complaining about the standards, and generally
    people don't. Maybe Italy is getting complacent.

    Garry,

    My food standards are quite high, on any scale. I have
    lived and worked on 3 continents, and travelled
    extensively on 5 continents. I am a very accomplished
    cook/chef. I am not comparing food in Italy with anything
    mediocre by any standards; my personal standards are quite
    high. And it was only 20 months ago that I toured in that
    area, so not enough time for 'complacency' to be the
    answer. Perhaps my 'radar' for good places is a bit more
    sensitive; who knows. Will get to try it again, soon;
    departure for Venice and the Dolomites and Alps is just
    over 5 weeks away ;-)

    - rick

    Perhaps you've got more money than the rest of us and can
    afford better food. :-(
    --
    Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "I have never killed a
    man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." -
    Clarence Darrow www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
    www.macclancy.co.uk

  13. Rick Warner said:

    departure for Venice and the Dolomites and Alps is just
    over 5 weeks away ;-)

    And be sure to dodge some heavily trafficked roads up there,
    in your approach to the Dolomites.

    Else, you might regret.

    Sergio Pisa

  14. Sergio SERVADIO <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Rick Warner said:

    departure for Venice and the Dolomites and Alps is just
    over 5 weeks away ;-)

    And be sure to dodge some heavily trafficked roads up
    there, in your approach to the Dolomites.

    Else, you might regret.

    Sergio Pisa

    Thanks Sergio. The actual plan is to take the train from
    Mestre to Longarone, then take S251 through Zoldo Alto and
    on to Arabba or Canazei for the first day of riding. Then
    ride all or part of the Sella Ring the next day. We are
    looking at 3 options for going out to Bolzano after
    finishing in the Dolomites; either heading southwest through
    Passo Costalunga and then northwest to Bolzano, or heading
    northwest towards Ortisei with an option of taking an
    'unsealed road' (recommendation of the Lonely Planet guide)
    or SP64 through Castelrotto. With either of the latter two
    we would take SP24 through Fie Allo Sciliar and then make
    our way to Bolzano. We will stop overnight in Bolzano as my
    significant other wants to visit the Museo Archeologico.
    From Bolzano we will make our way towards Passo dello
    Stelvio and on to more of the Alps.

    Taking the train we can avoid the roads leading out of
    Venice towards the mountains, and get up to the more scenic
    areas faster. Any comments?

    - rick

  15. Rick.

    The Stelvio.

    If you do the Stelvio from the South (the side with the
    hairpin bends), as you start to go down the northern side,
    there are a few hairpins on the Northern side initially and
    then the road snakes off into the distance. I got the
    photograph of photographs of a touring buddy on these intial
    bends, with the road going away in the background. It's a
    STUNNING photo.

    "The secret of good photography is F8 and being there"

  16. Quoted message said:

    Thanks Sergio. The actual plan is to take the train from
    Mestre to Longarone,

    Congratulations: excellent first move! Do the short climb up
    that tragic dam; then, come back down and take up along
    Valle di Zoldo.

    Quoted message said:

    then take S251 through Zoldo Alto Sella
    Ring the next day. We are looking at 3
    options for going out to Bolzano after
    finishing in the Dolomites; either
    heading southwest through Passo
    Costalunga and then northwest to
    Bolzano, or heading northwest towards
    Ortisei with an option of taking an
    'unsealed road' (recommendation of the
    Lonely Planet guide) or SP64 through
    Castelrotto. With either of the latter
    two we would take SP24 through Fie Allo
    Sciliar and then make our way to
    Bolzano.

    I know every stretch and hairpin of these roads. You seem to
    have been well adviced, already. If you really like to go a
    beautiful and little known route, climb up from Santa
    Cristina (at the common foot of Gardena and Sella Joch) to
    Alpe di Siusi and descend onto Castelrotto/Siusi.

    W
    i
    l
    l
    s
    t
    o
    p

    Quoted message said:

    overnight in Bolzano as my significant other wants to
    visit the Museo Archeologico.

    I see you interest into the Similaun Oetzly (which I haven't
    seen); if it weren't for that, keep in mind that Bolzano can
    be very hot and stuffy at night in the summer.

    From Bolzano we will make our way
    towards Passo dello

    Quoted message said:

    Stelvio and on to more of the Alps.

    The Stelvio is the most beautiful of all, especially from
    that side.

    I guess 'more of the Alps' means Foscagno or Fuorn, Bernina
    ... . Caveat! Avoid spending the night in Livigno: it's a
    crappy place.

    You seem to know very well where you are heading. Anyhow, if
    you want, ask detailed questions. I have toured the alpine
    roads many times over, and extensively.

    Sergio Pisa

  17. Rick Warner said:

    comments?

    - rick

    If you're going to do the Stelvio coming from Bolzano, I
    think you'll want to do Gavia Pass also. But from the
    direction you're riding I must assume you're a good climber
    because the ride up from Ponte de Legno to Bormeo via Gavia
    Pass would wipe me out.

    Kenny Lee

  18. Sergio SERVADIO said:
    Quoted message said:

    Thanks Sergio. The actual plan is to take the train from
    Mestre to Longarone,


    Congratulations: excellent first move!

    There is another good opening, though. Take the train only
    up to Feltre, or Busche; then, pedal your way along the
    enchanting, and alas often forgotten, Valle del Mis, over
    Forcella Franche, down to Agordo, over Passo Duran and
    finally onto Valle di Zoldo.

    I would say you would make it one stage longer, this way.

    Sergio Pisa

  19. Kenny Lee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Rick Warner said:

    comments?

    - rick

    If you're going to do the Stelvio coming from Bolzano, I
    think you'll want to do Gavia Pass also. But from the
    direction you're riding I must assume you're a good
    climber because the ride up from Ponte de Legno to Bormeo
    via Gavia Pass would wipe me out.

    Kenny Lee

    I am an OK climber ;-) I do 400-500K feet per year in 6000-
    7000 miles of riding. I live near sea level, but right
    against the foothills so all my rides have some elevation to
    them. I am used to riding 7-14% grades regularly, and the
    occasional 19-24% section.

    We are debating Gavia. If we do not ride it this trip, then
    we will do it on another. Right now our itinerary seems to
    be running several days longer than the 2-1/2 weeks we have
    for the trip. Some lame thing like needing to work for a
    living :-)

    On a related note, the Giro starts tomorrow with a short
    prologue. One of the later stages goes over Gavia and ends
    in Bormio. Looks like they will be pushing close to
    sufficient snowmelt for the high country portions; the
    webcam at Stelvio shows a lot of snow remaining, though
    things look fairly nice in Bormio.

    - rick

  20. Rick Warner said:
    Quoted message said:

    If you're going to do the Stelvio coming from Bolzano, I
    think you'll want to do Gavia Pass also. But from the
    direction you're riding I must assume you're a good
    climber because the ride up from Ponte de Legno to
    Bormeo via Gavia Pass would wipe me out.

    Quoted message said:

    I am an OK climber ;-) I do 400-500K feet per year in 6000-
    7000 miles of riding.

    That's plenty to make you qualified. More than that, once
    you get to Santa Apollonia-Ponte di Legno you would
    certainly be in quite a good shape to go over the Gavia
    Pass, at your own pace of course (as everyone has to,
    everywhere).

    Anyway, about geography now. If you approach Stelvio from
    the Bolzano side you would next have to go up to the Gavia
    from Bormio and Santa Caterina Valfurva. Else, if you insist
    on climbing the Gavia from the southern side you end up in
    Bormio, at the western foot of the Stelvio, not in Prato
    allo Stelvio.

    Sergio Pisa

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