Cycling at schools - bike size/saddle height

Mark said:

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

Reading that hurts my knees. On my hybrid I have my saddle so that my
leg is straight when the pedal is at the bottom. Anything lower gives
me sore legs and is noticeably slower. I've had this position
recommended to me by people who know more about bikes than I do. The
handlebars are about level.

I haven't once come close to going over the handlebars when braking;
in fact, I've got used to being carried slightly forwards by my own
momentum just after the bike stops, which drops me nicely into a
standing position over the frame. (This will be a bad habit to be in
if I ever switch to toeclips, I know.)

Sounds like that rule is making cycling a lot harder than it should
be. Unless it's different for kids, I suppose.

Robin Johnson

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:08:51 +0100 someone who may be Mark
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

I had adjusted it (using the same system as I use for me) so that her
leg is just slightly bent when the peddle is at the bottom. She
clears the top tube when off the saddle with both feet on the ground.

I think that the council officials don't know what they are talking
about, which is not unusual with bikes. The only reason that I can
think of for putting both feet on the ground while sitting in the
saddle is to use the feet as not very effective brakes. Far better
to use the brakes, I assume that your daughter was able to operate
these effectively and thus come to a stop safely.

As for going over the handlebars, is there a steady stream of people
riding bikes with drop handlebars doing this?

I would complain long and loud. Council officials are generally too
arrogant to admit they made a mistake, apologise and rectify the
problem they caused. However, they do sometimes secretly change
things after feedback.

Was this the last session, or are there more to come?

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:44:07 -0700 (PDT) someone who may be
[email hidden] wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Sounds like that rule is making cycling a lot harder than it should
be.

Indeed. Perhaps that is the real objective, get those dammed
cyclists off the road and driving cars as soon as possible.

Quoted message said:

Unless it's different for kids, I suppose.

I don't think it is.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

"Mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

I had adjusted it (using the same system as I use for me) so that her
leg is just slightly bent when the peddle is at the bottom. She
clears the top tube when off the saddle with both feet on the ground.

I had recently moved her to a larger bike (24"😉 because the next size
down (20"😉 was much too small.

Any thoughts?

They're wrong. If I were you I'd print out a setup guide from Sheldon Brown
or similar (or perhaps 2 or three) proving that saddle height is fairly
vital to pedalling efficiency, and that it's used by all serious cyclists,
even mountain bikers (barring your jump and downhill boys) who stand far
more chance of going over the bars.

Enough standover height for both feet on the ground off the saddle is
sensible, but all both feet on the ground on the saddle will achieve is
knackered joints and tired kids. It is a fairly common fear (not liking not
being able to put both feet down whilst seated) amongst people who aren't
used to cycling IME.

in article [email hidden], Mark at
[email hidden] wrote on 24/4/08 10:08:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts?

I would quote Cyclecraft at them, as it is a HMSO publication and is
required reading for instructors of Bikeability training courses (the
national standard for cycle training). Is this trainging a Bikeability
course? If not, ask the LA people why they are not following the national
standard.

Ben

David Hansen said:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:08:51 +0100 someone who may be Mark
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

I had adjusted it (using the same system as I use for me) so that her
leg is just slightly bent when the peddle is at the bottom. She
clears the top tube when off the saddle with both feet on the ground.

I think that the council officials don't know what they are talking
about, which is not unusual with bikes. The only reason that I can
think of for putting both feet on the ground while sitting in the
saddle is to use the feet as not very effective brakes. Far better
to use the brakes, I assume that your daughter was able to operate
these effectively and thus come to a stop safely.

Yes, but she is not yet strong enough to lock the wheels under
braking.

Quoted message said:

As for going over the handlebars, is there a steady stream of people
riding bikes with drop handlebars doing this?

I don't think any of them have drop handlebars. Most kids have
Mountain bikes (I mean BSOs).

Quoted message said:

I would complain long and loud. Council officials are generally too
arrogant to admit they made a mistake, apologise and rectify the
problem they caused. However, they do sometimes secretly change
things after feedback.

Was this the last session, or are there more to come?

There are more to come, but I was told she would not be allowed to use
the same bike on the road.

I thought I was right, but it is good to make sure. I will be writing
a letter to the school or maybe the LA.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups
("😉_("😉 I am blocking most articles posted from there.

Mark said:

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

I had adjusted it (using the same system as I use for me) so that her
leg is just slightly bent when the peddle is at the bottom. She
clears the top tube when off the saddle with both feet on the ground.

With my cycle trainer's hat on, once you're up to speed the method
you've used is what we were taught to teach for a good first base on
saddle adjustment (and what i've used myself for years, and what is on
the http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/cyclebike.htm#fitting
page of the Cycling and Your Child website, which has been audited by
urc including active cycle trainers). A little fettling up and down
from there may be in order to suit personal taste and physiology, but
it's a good start.

But it does assume you're up to speed. Now, I can't say from here
whether I think your daughter qualifies as "up to speed", but at the
start of a course it would be a reasonable assumption that she might not
be and in that case a start with both feet down while sat may be a Good
Thing. *But*, at the end of a course I would hope that you'd be
competent at stopping, coming down off the saddle as necessary, before
you were let loose on traffic. In other words, if they think you can't
go out on roads because you can't put both feet down while sat in the
saddle I think they're putting the cart before the horse. Before you
get on to the road you should be able to prove you can stop safely
without toppling over sideways or doing a head-plant over the bars, and
if you can prove you can stop safely with the saddle at a proper height
off the road then you've proved you can do it on the road.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:08:51 +0100

Mark said:

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

Sounds like something for the wee tots. As in, pre-school age.

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts?

FWIW, I had my first own bike at age 10. Before that I'd only
ever used *adult* bikes owned (though not used) by (adult, female)
members of my family. Of course I couldn't reach the saddles,
but was able to ride them standing on the pedals.

If there's a moral, it's something about children being much
more flexible and adaptable than adults. Contrast me now:
I have a new bike (bought last week:-), and I'm fussing
over things like adjusting the saddle and bars to optimum
comfort on both uphill and downhill!

--
not me guv

Mark writtificated

Quoted message said:

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

The heel on pedal and knee slightly bent thing is a good starting point for
getting the optimum pedalling efficiency. This does tend to result in only
being able to stand on tiptoes when still on the saddle. The solution is
to lean the bike and get one foot down, stand astride the top tube and get
both feet down, or just stand on tiptoe (easier with stiff cycling shoes.

Many beginner cyclists prefer to sacrifice efficiency for the greater
convenience of being able to stop without fear of toppling over. This
makes perfect sense as long as they are aware that pedalling will take more
effort - if they're trundling along at 10mph they're not going to be too
concerned at putting in 10% more power - it's prolly still less than
walking.

Can your daughter ride the bike confidently, and stop and start safely? If
she could not do this the instructors were right not to let her out on the
roads. Might be an idea to check she can start and stop safely (including
moving away after stopping in too high a gear).

If she is competent and safe on the bike then showing them something from
cyclecraft should do the trick. Being rude, angry or patronising will
prolly make them dig in and behave like stubborn children so tact will be
needed.

Mark said:

Hi,

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

Is that feet flat on the ground (i.e. heels down)
or flat touching the ground (i.e. toes down)?

BugBear (who's saddle is high enough that it's toes down on one side only)

Mark said:

Hi,

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

I had adjusted it (using the same system as I use for me) so that her
leg is just slightly bent when the peddle is at the bottom. She
clears the top tube when off the saddle with both feet on the ground.

You're right.

They're making it up.

Ask LA: "When will you be starting teaching the National Standard with NS
qualified staff"

--
Peter Fox

On 24 Apr 2008 11:49:15 GMT, Mark T
<pleasegivegenerously@warmail*turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com.invalid>

Quoted message said:

Mark writtificated

Quoted message said:

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

The heel on pedal and knee slightly bent thing is a good starting point for
getting the optimum pedalling efficiency. This does tend to result in only
being able to stand on tiptoes when still on the saddle. The solution is
to lean the bike and get one foot down, stand astride the top tube and get
both feet down, or just stand on tiptoe (easier with stiff cycling shoes.

I have shown her how to stop like this.

Quoted message said:

Many beginner cyclists prefer to sacrifice efficiency for the greater
convenience of being able to stop without fear of toppling over. This
makes perfect sense as long as they are aware that pedalling will take more
effort - if they're trundling along at 10mph they're not going to be too
concerned at putting in 10% more power - it's prolly still less than
walking.

Can your daughter ride the bike confidently, and stop and start safely? If
she could not do this the instructors were right not to let her out on the
roads. Might be an idea to check she can start and stop safely (including
moving away after stopping in too high a gear).

Prior to the school cycle training I had taken her out for several
rides on her new bike. By the end of it I believed she was of an
adequate standard to ride on the road (a very quiet cul-de-sac BTW). I
would not have let her do the training if she was not ready.

(I had already adjusted the seat to its lowest possible height so the
only option would be for her to swap back to her old bike which is now
being used by her younger (& smaller) brother. I believe the new bike
to be safer for her.)

Quoted message said:

If she is competent and safe on the bike then showing them something from
cyclecraft should do the trick. Being rude, angry or patronising will
prolly make them dig in and behave like stubborn children so tact will be
needed.

I don't indend to be rude. I save that for cold callers ;-)

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups
("😉_("😉 I am blocking most articles posted from there.

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:53:41 +0100, bugbear

bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim said:

Mark said:

Hi,

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

Is that feet flat on the ground (i.e. heels down)
or flat touching the ground (i.e. toes down)?

Toes down.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups
("😉_("😉 I am blocking most articles posted from there.

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:20:26 +0100 someone who may be Mark
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I assume that your daughter was able to operate
these effectively and thus come to a stop safely.

Yes, but she is not yet strong enough to lock the wheels under
braking.

I haven't evaluated the use of feet as brakes, but I assume that
they are rather less efficient than the brakes fitted to bikes even
if your daughter is unable to lock the wheels with them.

Quoted message said:

I thought I was right, but it is good to make sure. I will be writing
a letter to the school or maybe the LA.

I would start off with the telephone and try and get hold of the
idiot and find out what they are on and what the basis is for their
assertions. I wouldn't quite put it like this to them though.

They will probably be evasive and waffle on for a while. I would
then hit them and the school, the next day, with a letter including
Cyclecraft and the other references people have provided. I would
ask them why they are disregarding the advice therein and ask them
whether I can trust the school to look after my daughter properly
while on this course.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 24 Apr 2008 11:49:15 GMT someone who may be Mark T
<pleasegivegenerously@warmail*turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com.invalid>
wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Being rude, angry or patronising will
prolly make them dig in and behave like stubborn children so tact will be
needed.

Though we have only one side of the story, it appears that they have
already dug in and behaved like stubborn children.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

David Hansen said:

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 11:20:26 +0100 someone who may be Mark
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I assume that your daughter was able to operate
these effectively and thus come to a stop safely.

Yes, but she is not yet strong enough to lock the wheels under
braking.

I haven't evaluated the use of feet as brakes, but I assume that
they are rather less efficient than the brakes fitted to bikes even
if your daughter is unable to lock the wheels with them.

They were not expecting her to use her feet for brakes but, for some
reason, they thought that not being able to put both feet on the
ground (whilst still on the saddle) would mean that she could not stop
safely. Unless she rode at a lower standard than she is capable of
then I don't really know what they are worried about.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I thought I was right, but it is good to make sure. I will be writing
a letter to the school or maybe the LA.

I would start off with the telephone and try and get hold of the
idiot and find out what they are on and what the basis is for their
assertions. I wouldn't quite put it like this to them though.

I had already done that before posting because the message that came
back from the school didn't make sense. It still doesn't.

Quoted message said:

They will probably be evasive and waffle on for a while. I would
then hit them and the school, the next day, with a letter including
Cyclecraft and the other references people have provided. I would
ask them why they are disregarding the advice therein and ask them
whether I can trust the school to look after my daughter properly
while on this course.

There were not evasive, but they said in their opinion she was not
safe because of the reasons I mentioned in previous posts. I don't
agree.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups
("😉_("😉 I am blocking most articles posted from there.

Mark said:

Hi,

My daughter has recently done a cycling course, run by the LA, at
school. However, on the latest session, she was not allowed out on
the road because the organisers believed the bike was too big or the
saddle was too high. They told me that they were worried that she
could not stop safely and she might go over the handlebars when
braking!

Their criteria is that the child must be able to place *both* feet on
the ground whilst sitting on the saddle.

I had adjusted it (using the same system as I use for me) so that her
leg is just slightly bent when the peddle is at the bottom. She
clears the top tube when off the saddle with both feet on the ground.

I had recently moved her to a larger bike (24"😉 because the next size
down (20"😉 was much too small.

Any thoughts?

With novice cyclists I start them off with the saddle low, i.e. when
sitting on the saddle they can have both feet flat of the ground. I
gradually raise the saddle until they can support themselves, when
sitting on the saddle, on the balls of both feet. If I'm taking the
time to fit a bike properly, which I rarely do, the child's leg should
be nearly straight with their heel on the pedal at the pedal's lowest
point.

I reckon anything between being able to just support themselves on the
balls of the feet and the heel on pedal method is safe for children
ready for on-road cycle training.

This seemed a pretty good guide...
www.ehow.com/how_14103_determine-correct-saddle.html
....until I read the final item on the tips and advice section.

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:06:56 +0100 someone who may be Mark
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

They were not expecting her to use her feet for brakes but, for some
reason, they thought that not being able to put both feet on the
ground (whilst still on the saddle) would mean that she could not stop
safely.

Does not compute.

If they mean that after stopping she could not remain stationary
safely with only one foot on the ground then that is another
discussion. In other words she might topple over sideways when
stopped, though in that case the foot not on the ground would soon
make contact with the ground unless she had folded her leg up.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 16:55:18 +0100 someone who may be Tom Crispin
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

This seemed a pretty good guide...
www.ehow.com/how_14103_determine-correct-saddle.html
...until I read the final item on the tips and advice section.

I also thought step 1 a bit strange. While some people go for
expensive cycling shoes many manage perfectly well with normal shoes
for the journeys they are making.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54