Cycle path sign - compulsory?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cyclists I've obseved going through lights on red do so very
cautiously. This is not the case with the "amber gamblers".
--

Oh, so it's OK for cars also to go through red lights "cautiously".
What about driving on the pavement "cautiously". Is that OK too?

No, and I'm at a loss to see where you got that idea from.

Tom Crispin said:

Quoted message said:

Cyclists who "crash" long-red lights on the other hand are regarded as
flagrant law-breakers. These are the ones who really annoy everyone
else, and who get all cyclists a bad name with wider society.

Cyclists I've obseved going through lights on red do so very
cautiously. This is not the case with the "amber gamblers".

Try cycling around Shepherd's Bush green and off towards Ealing during the rush
hour.

It's an education.

I'd been of the opinion that only a minority of cyclists ignore red lights and
are normally quite careful about it until I did that.

If you were a motorist, and you main exposure to cyclists were on a journey such
as that, I can well see why your view of cyclists would be a little skewed.

Definitely a concentration of lycra louts there.

Pinky said:

When I bought my new bike from Langsett Cycles in January I noticed that
there is a purpose built ( new at the same time as a the tramway?) cycle
path running here as well. I am distinctly not a cycle path enthusiast but
I wondered, since it is a "new" build, what it was like and if it actually
goes anywhere thus being a bit useful.

Like most cycle paths, it happily avoids nice wide bits of road, then
peters out when things start to get congested and narrow. :-)

R.

In article <[email hidden]>, ian henden

() said:

"Tom Crispin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pyromancer said:

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Tom Crispin
<[email hidden]> gently breathed:
>On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 21:41:19 GMT, "ian henden" <[email hidden]>
>wrote:

[..]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cyclists who "crash" long-red lights on the other hand are regarded as
flagrant law-breakers. These are the ones who really annoy everyone
else, and who get all cyclists a bad name with wider society.

Cyclists I've obseved going through lights on red do so very
cautiously. This is not the case with the "amber gamblers".
--

Oh, so it's OK for cars also to go through red lights "cautiously". What
about driving on the pavement "cautiously". Is that OK too?

Where did Tom say it was OK for *anyone* to go through red lights or use
a vehicle on the pavement? You'd better get some new glasses before you
run someone over.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
The System is well pleased with this Unit's performance, which falls
within expected parameters.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Jim Ley

Quoted message said:

Which is completely irrelevant, having to power up the computer and
look something up is not exactly something which is useful to the vast
majority of users.

My computer is powered up in my pocket at all times. It's called a
'phone'; you may have heard of them.

Yes, I've seen exactly what little penetration mobile web services
are, and how poor the services are on them, how expensive the data
packages are, and how they're only used by geeks. So obviously
they're the perfect choice for public transport information - mostly
used by the poor, the elderly etc.

Quoted message said:

It even has bluetooth to enable
automatic communication with nearby bus stops.

Of course 10m bluetooth devices absolutely solve the problem of not
having to hang around bus stops waiting for the bus - you can now hang
around 10m from the bus stops!

Jim.

[email hidden] (Jim Ley) wrote:
| On 08 Mar 2006 22:38:41 GMT, Ian Smith <[email hidden]> wrote:
| >How can pedestrians proceed along a path blocked by marshmallows?
| With a spoon and a hearty appetite.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone eating marshmallows with a spoon.
Is this a case of "marshmallow" meaning something yet again different
in Some Other Part of the English Speaking Whirled?

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 12:46:56 +0000 (UTC),
[email hidden] (Geraint Jones)

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Jim Ley) wrote:
| On 08 Mar 2006 22:38:41 GMT, Ian Smith <[email hidden]> wrote:
| >How can pedestrians proceed along a path blocked by marshmallows?
| With a spoon and a hearty appetite.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone eating marshmallows with a spoon.
Is this a case of "marshmallow" meaning something yet again different
in Some Other Part of the English Speaking Whirled?

Well I couldn't think of a way in which marshmallows could block a
cycle path unless they were giant, the regular ones you could just
cycle through.

Jim.

I've been trying to find the actual law on whether pedestrians can use a
"cycle only route" and must keep to the correct side of a divided path.

I haven't found exactly what I was looking for but:

Statutory Instrument 2002 No. 3113
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#sch5
lists the blue circular sign 955 at
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113ab.gif
describes it as "route for use by pedal cycles only"
and the divided path sign 957 at
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113ac.gif
is described as "...for use by pedal cycles only and by pedestrians only."
and the shared path sign is described as:
"route for use by pedal cycles and pedestrians only."

Traffic Management Act 2004
2004 Chapter 18
SCHEDULE 7
at: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/40018--r.htm
mentions sign number 955 "Route for use by pedal cycles only"
and says "an offence under section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c. 52)
of failing to comply with the indication given by a traffic sign".
Are pedestrians "traffic?
There are references in other laws to "pedestrian traffic".

John Pitcock

in message <[email hidden]>, Jim Ley

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Jim Ley

Quoted message said:

Which is completely irrelevant, having to power up the computer and
look something up is not exactly something which is useful to the
vast majority of users.

My computer is powered up in my pocket at all times. It's called a
'phone'; you may have heard of them.

Yes, I've seen exactly what little penetration mobile web services
are,

What mobile web services are these? Never heard of 'em. There's this
thing called the World Wide Web, just the same as what you use on your
desk. Available on many (most?) modern phones.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Copyright (c) Simon Brooke; All rights reserved. Permission is
granted to transfer this message via UUCP or NNTP and to store it
for the purpose of archiving or further transfer. Permission is
explicitly denied to use this message as part of a 'Web Forum', or
to transfer it by HTTP.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Jim Ley

Quoted message said:

Yes, I've seen exactly what little penetration mobile web services
are,

What mobile web services are these? Never heard of 'em. There's this
thing called the World Wide Web, just the same as what you use on your
desk.

Yes, and a good name for them when used on the phone is "mobile web
services" as in services accessed from the phone. Of course you can
access the general web from the phone - as long as you have Opera
Mini, or a good Netfront or Opentext browser, however these are
certainly not available pre-installed on most phones, neither are the
data plans available by default for most people.

You're making the common mistake of something that is technically
possible being actually relevant to users - it may be possible, but
people don't do it, and it's not technical barriers, but price,
usefulness and time taken to access the services.

Quoted message said:

Available on many (most?) modern phones.

Opera Mini is available on most certainly, very few people actually
have it though (lots in Russia though I beleive...)

Jim.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, David Hansen

(') said:

If it is not already done somewhere for buses and trams it soon will
be, as it is just a matter of making what is available at stops
available on WWW.

Someone has done this as a Goggle map hack - a map showing the current
position of every bus in some city (?Seattle?), and the expected time
of arrival of the next bus at every stop, updated in real time. Very
cool hack, but I can't find the URL just now.

It's not a map hack, it's a mashup. Get with the web 2.0 terminology. 🙂

Still, a Java applet which offered real time running information would be
pretty simple to sort out, should anyone have the desire.
--
Ambrose

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Paul
<[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 20:37:35 +0000, Pyromancer
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ISTR the
Sheffield trams weigh 52 tonnes each (large, 3 section units, expected
to carry lots of people a decent distance), and Stagecoach (who operate
them) make a point of letting people know this.

Because, of course, being hit by a 52 ton object at 30 mph is soooo much worse
than being hit by a 1 ton object.

Strange as it may seem, that is how lots of people perceive things.
Young children will instinctively regard a slow-moving bus as more
dangerous than a fast-moving sports car, simply because the bus is
bigger.

Quoted message said:

I think the fact that your inattention cannot be mitigated by a tram driver
swerving is more cause for concern.

That may well have an effect too.

Quoted message said:

But, then again, no one steps onto a road *expecting* to be hit.

After some of the lunacy I've seen on the roads, I'm not so sure... :-)

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Richard
<[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

Pyromancer wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Supertram in Sheffield runs right past a major LBS at one point. The
tramlines are towards the centre of the road, leaving plenty of space.

Quoted message said:

That's all well and good, but further up the road the pavement lunges
in (and rises up) to meet the tramway at a platform; with dragons-
teeth tank traps, er, discouragements to pedestrians on either side.
And in the middle of the road there's a sodding pedestrian refuge.
Hopping into the four-foot between the rails is essential.

I used to cycle up there quite often, never had a problem with it. I
can't remember if I moved into the four-foot or not, TBH.

Quoted message said:

Cyclist injuries amongst Sheffield cyclists from going into, or
skidding on, the tracks, are common - I think virtually all cyclists of
my acquintaince have had a spill. Mostly just the one, we learn quick.

Perhaps I was lucky. I'd far rather ride with tramlines than with some
of the nutters on the roads.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Tom Crispin
<[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 20:51:48 +0000, Pyromancer
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This difference may sound subtle but it makes a huge difference in lots
of people's minds. Going throuhgh just as, or just a second or so after,
the lights go red is regarded as "amber gambling" and most people accept
it. Cyclists doing it will raise no more eyebrows than car drivers
will.

Cyclists who "crash" long-red lights on the other hand are regarded as
flagrant law-breakers. These are the ones who really annoy everyone
else, and who get all cyclists a bad name with wider society.

Quoted message said:

Cyclists I've obseved going through lights on red do so very
cautiously. This is not the case with the "amber gamblers".

Cyclists I've observed doing it are sometimes cautious, sometimes
speed-freaks, and sometimes somewhere in between. None of which
matters. Amber gamblers are not riding/driving through a stream of
people or other traffic who are already half way across the road.
Cyclists who ride through after everyone else has stopped, are.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

Pyromancer said:

Perhaps I was lucky. I'd far rather ride with tramlines than with some
of the nutters on the roads.

I agree.

It's the action of the nutters that makes dealing with the tram lines a problem
in the first place.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:57:35 GMT someone who may be
[email hidden] (Paul) wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I think the fact that your inattention cannot be mitigated by a tram driver
swerving is more cause for concern.

If the tram driver cannot stop when someone lumbers in the way then
it is unlikely that the driver of a bus or lorry would be able to
swerve in the time available.

Note that trams can be stopped in much the same distances as buses
and that trams are designed to minimise the chances of someone going
under them.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 15:36:23 GMT, [email hidden] (Paul) wrote:

[proof-of-payment fare collection systems]

Quoted message said:

Probably works just like a bendy bus where those of us that pay can use
whichever set of doors we like, but chavs and scallies use the rear doors and
hop off if they see a revenue protection officer is waiting to get on.

As David mentioned further up the thread, many European networks
employ plainclothes fare inspectors, often from three to five per
tram. They only stand up and identify themselves once the tram has
closed its doors and moved off, so *everyone* on board gets checked.