Cycle Instructor Training - Day #1

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:05:28 +0000 someone who may be Tilly
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

The Instructor Trainers were
insistent that to stop a bike as fast as possible it was necessary to
use both brakes, not front brakes alone.

This is true, but misses the point. Proper riding technique should
avoid the need to stop the bike as fast as possible in most
circumstances.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen said:

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:05:28 +0000 someone who may be Tilly
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

The Instructor Trainers were
insistent that to stop a bike as fast as possible it was necessary to
use both brakes, not front brakes alone.

This is true, but misses the point. Proper riding technique should
avoid the need to stop the bike as fast as possible in most
circumstances.

The point is that in a small proportion of circumstances, as you
correctly indicate, albeit by pointing out everything but the point,
you will need to stop as fast as possible. So it is a skill worth learning.

...d

David Hansen said:

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:05:28 +0000 someone who may be Tilly
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

The Instructor Trainers were
insistent that to stop a bike as fast as possible it was necessary to
use both brakes, not front brakes alone.

This is true, but misses the point. Proper riding technique should
avoid the need to stop the bike as fast as possible in most
circumstances.

How so? At maximum braking there is no weight on the back wheel so it
doesn't contribute anything except if the surface is so loose or
slippery the front wheel looses traction before the back lifts.

Tony

Tilly said:

9am - 10am Get to know you session.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

4.00 - 5.00 Plenary session

Comments: The playground session was dull, but necessary if
instructing complete beginners. The Instructor Trainers were
insistent that to stop a bike as fast as possible it was necessary to
use both brakes, not front brakes alone. Little was said about helmet
use, neither trainer wore a helmet, they appeared to be neutral on the
issue. On road much was made of the Primary Cycling Position (centre
of the lane) and only move into the Secondary Cycling Position if safe
for traffic to pass. In moving from drill to drill, the trainers had
us in a "snake", and blocked the traffic when crossing main roads,
turning left or right. Occasionally we moved from a snake to pairs.
Other road traffic behaved impeccably, apart from one cyclist, who
took advantage of our taking Primary Cycling Position and undertook
our entire snake in the Secondary Cycling Position (I don't blame
her).

Day two tomorrow.

Where are you doing this? Lifecycle? CTUK?

Its excellent to see more people undertaking this training.

John B
http://www.hampshirecycletraining.org.uk/

Tony Raven said:

Quoted message said:

This is true, but misses the point. Proper riding technique should avoid
the need to stop the bike as fast as possible in most circumstances.

How so? At maximum braking there is no weight on the back wheel so it
doesn't contribute anything except if the surface is so loose or slippery
the front wheel looses traction before the back lifts.

Depends on the height of the CoG and the friction coefficient of tyres &
road. You'd be correct for an "ordinary" on dry road, giving up some
braking power on an "upright" (or "safety" if you prefer) on a dry [1] or
wet road and throwing away useful barking (! oops ;-) effect on a
recumbent or a tandem under any circumstances bar sheet ice.

[1] Be honest. Have you ever pulled a stoppie on a bicycle? If you
haven't [2] then you still are getting some effect from the back brake.

[2] Me neither.

Mike

Mike Causer said:

[1] Be honest. Have you ever pulled a stoppie on a bicycle? If you
haven't [2] then you still are getting some effect from the back brake.

[2] Me neither.

Well you should have a go at it then - it might help you learn how to
use your brakes efectively.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

Honestly, what use is the rear brake if you're trying to stop as fast
as possible? There will be little to no weight on it making its
contribution relatively useless.

Mike Causer said:

[1] Be honest. Have you ever pulled a stoppie on a bicycle?

Loads of times. In fact it's all too easy from a lightweight racer with
dual-pivot brakes or an MTB with V's, if you have reasonable hand
strength.

Not so easy on a rear-heavy bike with [censored] brakes, however, or if finger
power is limited, which will be the case for young children with cheap
side-pull brakes, for example.

Also, hard front-braking is best avoided on bends or on slippery surfaces.
Trouble is, you don't always know if it's slippery until it's too late.
Still, there's little choice in an emergency.

Quoted message said:

If you
haven't [2] then you still are getting some effect from the back
brake.

[2] Me neither.

You might want to have a go at sorting the brake out. Ideally, you should
be *able* to pull a stoppie.

~PB

Tilly wrote:

<snip>

Thanks for that, look forward to tomorrow's edition!

I watched a cycle instructor teach an adult beginner last Saturday by
the Albert Memorial in Hyde Park. She'd clearly never ridden before
and couldn't balance at the start of the lesson. The instructor was
very professional and encouraging IMO, and an hour later she was riding
on her own with a huge smile on her face. It was magnificent to watch
her tremendous progress, well done to that man.
Cheers,
Mike.

(I was there teaching a skating lesson, LOL)

James Annan said:

Mike Causer said:

[1] Be honest. Have you ever pulled a stoppie on a bicycle? If you
haven't [2] then you still are getting some effect from the back brake.

[2] Me neither.

Quoted message said:

Well you should have a go at it then - it might help you learn how to use
your brakes efectively.

Yes, I've had a go. On dry tarmac. I bottled out; been over the bars
before y'see, the resulting scars were noted in my passport in the days
when they recorded "distinguishing marks".

You're good at this, please tell us how you know when there's enough grip
to aviate the back wheel and when there isn't. Have you tried it on damp
tarmac, damp Bridport stone, wet tarmac, wet leaves?

And when there isn't enough friction, and you've locked the front wheel
and are on your way down, please tell us your techniques for minimising
the injuries....

Mike

Mike Causer said:

You're good at this, please tell us how you know when there's enough grip
to aviate the back wheel and when there isn't. Have you tried it on damp
tarmac, damp Bridport stone, wet tarmac, wet leaves?

And when there isn't enough friction, and you've locked the front wheel
and are on your way down, please tell us your techniques for minimising
the injuries....

However much friction there is or isn't, adding a rear wheel skid to the
mix is hardly going to help matters. On very slippery ground it might be
sensible to use the rear brake cos a front wheel skid is even worse. But
on any decent surface - ie the vast majority of all cycling - this
statement in the original message is simply wrong:

Quoted message said:

The Instructor Trainers were
insistent that to stop a bike as fast as possible it was necessary to
use both brakes, not front brakes alone.

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

JohnB said:

Where are you doing this? Lifecycle? CTUK?

CTUK. The course is being run in a school in South East London. The
participants are:

3 primary teachers
2 community support officers
1 community police officer
1 go-kart track owner
1 school caretaker
1 school travel officer
1 learning support assistant

Quoted message said:

Its excellent to see more people undertaking this training.

Quoted message said:

http://www.hampshirecycletraining.org.uk/

Thanks for the link. Interesting.

Tony Raven composed the following;:

Quoted message said:

David Hansen said:

On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 18:05:28 +0000 someone who may be Tilly
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

The Instructor Trainers were
insistent that to stop a bike as fast as possible it was necessary
to use both brakes, not front brakes alone.

This is true, but misses the point. Proper riding technique should
avoid the need to stop the bike as fast as possible in most
circumstances.

How so? At maximum braking there is no weight on the back wheel so it
doesn't contribute anything except if the surface is so loose or
slippery the front wheel looses traction before the back lifts.

Fastest way I've ever braked on a bike (MTB) is by pulling both brakes
to the point of lock-up, then throwing the body back hard, over the rear
wheel in a 'very large, very sudden drop-off stylee' .. This effectively
scrubs off a [censored]-load of speed in a short space of time. It's a racing
technique and must be learnt, it's not something that many people do
instinctively. I guess the sudden weight transfer to the rear helps
maintain traction to both braking surfaces.

I don't know if it would work with a roadie, but it seems like it might
.... 😉

--
Paul ...
http://www.4x4prejudice.org/index.php
(8(!) Homer Rules ... 😉
"A [censored] is a [censored], no matter what mode of transport they're using."

Paul - censored said:

Fastest way I've ever braked on a bike (MTB) is by pulling both brakes
to the point of lock-up, then throwing the body back hard, over the rear
wheel in a 'very large, very sudden drop-off stylee' .. This effectively
scrubs off a [censored]-load of speed in a short space of time. It's a racing
technique and must be learnt, it's not something that many people do
instinctively. I guess the sudden weight transfer to the rear helps
maintain traction to both braking surfaces.

I don't know if it would work with a roadie, but it seems like it might
... 😉

As well as braking, we were told to teach people to shift their weight
back by bracing their bodies.

Tilly said:

9am - 10am Get to know you session.
10am - 10.30 Getting on and off your bike
Starting off and pedalling with help
Stopping without help
Starting without help
Steering where they want to
10.45 - 12.15 Using gears
Stopping quickly
Swerving to avoid objects
Looking behind without wobbling
Signaling without wobbling
Looking behind and signaling without wobbling
1.00 - 4.00 Starting from the side of the road
Stopping on the side of the road
Looking all around including behind
Understanding where to ride on the road
Passing a parked or smaller vehicle
Passing side roads
Junction turns 1 and U turn
Junction turns 2
Road narrowing
4.00 - 5.00 Plenary session

Comments: The playground session was dull, but necessary if
instructing complete beginners. The Instructor Trainers were
insistent that to stop a bike as fast as possible it was necessary to
use both brakes, not front brakes alone. Little was said about helmet
use, neither trainer wore a helmet, they appeared to be neutral on the
issue. On road much was made of the Primary Cycling Position (centre
of the lane) and only move into the Secondary Cycling Position if safe
for traffic to pass. In moving from drill to drill, the trainers had
us in a "snake", and blocked the traffic when crossing main roads,
turning left or right. Occasionally we moved from a snake to pairs.
Other road traffic behaved impeccably, apart from one cyclist, who
took advantage of our taking Primary Cycling Position and undertook
our entire snake in the Secondary Cycling Position (I don't blame
her).

Day two tomorrow.

Sounds like CBT training for engine powered two wheelers....

BTDTGTSTPI

James Annan said:

However much friction there is or isn't, adding a rear wheel skid to the
mix is hardly going to help matters. On very slippery ground it might be
sensible to use the rear brake cos a front wheel skid is even worse. But
on any decent surface - ie the vast majority of all cycling

Majority? So why have I shot several rolls of film in the past few weeks
on inadequately cleared cycle farcilities covered in mud and leaves?

(To appear on a website later this year. Before the Spring Equinox if all
goes well.)

Loose the back wheel and even a utility cyclist might be able to recover,
lose the front and you need to be very, very good to stay upright. Sadly
for many people's appreciation of dynamics this is opposite to 4-wheel
vehicles, where the physics, the law and the manufacturers are dead set
against loosing the rear, but the front letting go is controllable-ish by
the general public.

Quoted message said:

this statement in the original message is simply wrong:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Instructor Trainers were insistent that to stop a bike as fast as
possible it was necessary to use both brakes, not front brakes alone.

Except under conditions of high coefficient of friction or very high
centre of gravity, the Trainers are right. I do not feel inclined to let
you ride my low CoG bike, but I'm sure I can find a low CoF surface on
which you can demonstrate to me the correctness of your ideas on your own
bike.

If you're lucky I might even have a pocket full of Savlon and Elastopast,
if you're unlucky it could be a scrubbing-brush, Swarfega and Tetanus
injection job [1].

[1] Yes, I've been there :-( But not from falling off bikes!

Mike

in message
<[email hidden]>, Mike

Causer (') said:

James Annan said:

Mike Causer said:

[1] Be honest. Have you ever pulled a stoppie on a bicycle? If
[you haven't [2] then you still are getting some effect from the
back brake.

[2] Me neither.

Quoted message said:

Well you should have a go at it then - it might help you learn how to
use your brakes efectively.

Yes, I've had a go. On dry tarmac. I bottled out; been over the bars
before y'see, the resulting scars were noted in my passport in the
days when they recorded "distinguishing marks".

You're good at this, please tell us how you know when there's enough
grip
to aviate the back wheel and when there isn't. Have you tried it on
damp tarmac, damp Bridport stone, wet tarmac, wet leaves?

And when there isn't enough friction, and you've locked the front
wheel and are on your way down, please tell us your techniques for
minimising the injuries....

I think there's a difference here between people who habitually cycle
off road and people who habitually cycle on road. Off road, falling off
is normal, considered part of the fun, and (usually) doesn't hurt very
much. On road, falling off is unusual and when it does happen tends to
be painful. Go and practice your stoppies (if such is your pleasure) in
a nice grassy park. You'll fall of a bit. No worries.

Oh, the AI .sig daemon seems to have a jaundiced view of this...

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I'm fed up with Life 1.0. I never liked it much and now it's getting
me down. I think I'll upgrade to MSLife 97 -- you know, the one that
comes in a flash new box and within weeks you're crawling with bugs.

in message
<[email hidden]>, Mike

Causer (') said:

Sadly
for many people's appreciation of dynamics this is opposite to 4-wheel
vehicles, where the physics, the law and the manufacturers are dead
set against loosing the rear, but the front letting go is
controllable-ish by the general public.

Uh? Almost any front wheel drive car can be driven quite happily with
the back end hanging way out - just keep the front wheels pointing
where you want to go and all will be well. This is /the/ classic mini
technique, after all. I've known rear wheel drive cars where losing the
rear end was terminal, but good rear wheel drives can be driven quite
happily with the back end sliding a bit. Dammit, my present 4x4 (when
in two wheel drive mode) will happily drift its rear end through fast
loose corners with no loss of control, and it's scarcely a sports car.

OTOH I've never known a car which was at all safe or comfortable to
drive with the front end sliding.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Error 1109: There is no message for this error

James Annan said:

But on any decent surface - ie the vast majority of all cycling - this
statement in the original message is simply wrong:

Quoted message said:

The Instructor Trainers were
insistent that to stop a bike as fast as possible it was necessary to
use both brakes, not front brakes alone.

Do children have enough finger strength in one hand to lift the rear
wheel off the ground? If not, then the advice seems to me to be correct.

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
"I was an angry young man in need of an icon
and Leonid Brezhnev fell short on several counts"
-- Mark Steel