Cycle-cops and bike bells

Tamyka Bell said:

We also have members of Qld Police who ride mountain bikes
(also sometimes horses) along this path, stopping cyclists
who don't have bells on their bikes.

Good on 'em. Maybe they can do the same for reflectors &
lights at night.

Quoted message said:

The reason I haven't gotten a bell is because I prefer to
yell out where I am than to just ring a bell at someone.

Hmmm ... my earlier reply is obsolete. Your attitude makes
me a little angry. Your "preference" doesnt make it OK. Its
dangerous if we do it different ways. The standard, the
_law_, is to use a bell to indicate your presence. I find
safety more import than politeness.

Quoted message said:

Regular walk-commuters along this path tend to keep very
far left but some social strollers stand out in the middle

Thats their right, but "the decent thing" is to move left
when they hear a bell.

Quoted message said:

They're also often the people who get spooked by
cyclists, my mtb bell must be scary.

Not much you can do about that. I've only found it a problem
on weekends on popular paths, eg around lakes.

Quoted message said:

Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when you're
riding do you ring the bell at someone or do you call out
that you're "on the

A bell. That is the law. Thats what all the signs ask me to
do. Regular path users expect it. Its instantly
recognisable. Spoken words are more easily lost in the
background noise. Words can take far too long to be
recognised consciously, especially for elderly people.

Quoted message said:

hear? How about when people listen to music - can you hear
the bell or the voice better?

The same as when I'm not listening to music. Generally the
bell. Especially compared to some female voices. But thats
not really the point.

BTW, I've noticed a few bikes with horns as well as bells.
The horn is legal only in a emergency. Do people find these
useful? It would be satisfying :-)

"Tamyka Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when you're
riding do you ring the bell at someone or do you call out
that you're "on the right/left" etc; and when you're a
pedestrian what do you prefer to hear? How about when
people listen to music - can you hear the bell or the
voice better?

Tam

Ok; my experience is that when I say "passing on the
right/left", people ask why I didn't use my bell. When I use
my bell, people ask why I didn't just call out.

Another point to using a bell, if it's on most current-
generation bikes, then it's slightly out of reach when both
hads are on the grips and so one hand has to come off the
grip - reduced safety. Yes, you have to have a bell and yes,
the bell must work, but there is nothing in the regs to say
that the bell has to be within easy reach without taking a
hand off the grip.

--
Alan Erskine We can get people to the Moon in five years,
not the fifteen GWB proposes. Give NASA a real challenge
[email hidden]

Mike said:

BTW, I've noticed a few bikes with horns as well as bells.
The horn is legal only in a emergency. Do people find
these useful? It would be satisfying :-)

The australian road rules quote that a bicycle must have
"a bell, horn, or similar warning device in working order"

Doesn't say anything about horns only being used in
emergency sitations.

I carry only air horns.

I've found bells no more effective than just my voice. I'm
on a recumbent trike, and many pedestrians in front to not
give a wide enough berth because they're just expecting a
relatively narrow bicycle. Some pedestrians don't even try
to move over at all.

I carry horns because I spend a significant time on the
road, and my voice or some poofy bell isn't going to help
against a ton worth of metal and glass.

Interestingly enough, I _rarely_ have trouble with
cars/trucks etc. The only time I've really needed the
horns was when I was on a major road, and a turning 4WD
didn't see me coming, or didn't expect me to be moving
that quickly.

By far the most trouble I have is with pedestrians, be
they on the path, or road. (Had one woman stand in the
middle of the road watching me pass, wouldn't have been a
problem if she wasn't on my bloody lane!).

If you ask me, horns are manditory.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <counter.li.orgcounter.li.orgOpen ↗

Mike said:

Tamyka Bell said:

We also have members of Qld Police who ride mountain
bikes (also sometimes horses) along this path, stopping
cyclists who don't have bells on their bikes.

Good on 'em. Maybe they can do the same for reflectors &
lights at night.

They do, actually, and people with helmets incorrectly worn
or not worn at all. I'd like it if they could also work on
(1) the people who throw cyclists off their bikes, bash them
and chuck them into the river at night and (2) the people
who try to run me off the road but I guess there's a reason
why the bike-cops aren't out there every day - there's only
so many of them and it's good that the token effort is
enough to worry most people into compliance.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The reason I haven't gotten a bell is because I prefer
to yell out where I am than to just ring a bell at
someone.

Hmmm ... my earlier reply is obsolete. Your attitude makes
me a little angry. Your "preference" doesnt make it OK.
Its dangerous if we do it different ways. The standard,
the _law_, is to use a bell to indicate your presence. I
find safety more import than politeness.

This has been a trial and error thing that has more to do
with practicality and what works than with politeness. I'm
not averse to cycle bells, but with the community by the
river they tend not to work. Haven't had an accident since I
picked up this habit. While it is the law to ring the bell,
it's interesting that such a law applies to cyclists but not
rollerbladers (also allowed on this pathway) who, while
expected to give way, don't need to ring a bell or anything.
I actually started calling "on your right" after hearing
rollerbladers saying it while I was running. It meant I
didn't have to look around before moving. It would be an
interesting situation on the roads if cars had to honk their
horns every time they overtook someone.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regular walk-commuters along this path tend to keep very
far left but some social strollers stand out in the
middle

Thats their right, but "the decent thing" is to move left
when they hear a bell.

I agree with that one entirely. Perhaps we can educate
pedestrians on the correct response to a bell ringing? How
do we do this?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They're also often the people who get spooked by
cyclists, my mtb bell must be scary.

Not much you can do about that. I've only found it a
problem on weekends on popular paths, eg around lakes.

Try the riverside bikeway, Coro Drive. No, it's a problem
every day of the week, so much that I stopped using my bell.
That being said, I'm riding along the path at about 18 km/h
compared to 30 km/h on the roads, so I have time to react
(and when it's busy sometimes under 10 km/h).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when
you're riding do you ring the bell at someone or do you
call out that you're "on the

A bell. That is the law. Thats what all the signs ask me
to do. Regular path users expect it. Its instantly
recognisable. Spoken words are more easily lost in the
background noise. Words can take far too long to be
recognised consciously, especially for elderly people.

Quoted message said:

hear? How about when people listen to music - can you
hear the bell or the voice better?

The same as when I'm not listening to music. Generally the
bell. Especially compared to some female voices. But thats
not really the point.

Appreciate these comments as I don't listen to music when
riding but yeah I would've thought the bell was easier.

Quoted message said:

BTW, I've noticed a few bikes with horns as well as bells.
The horn is legal only in a emergency. Do people find
these useful? It would be satisfying :-)

Tell me about it. How is an emergency defined for this - is
it one of those bad technical definitions which means that
you can only use it if you're desperately trying to brake
and turn to avoid colliding with the crazy car-driver who
just pulled out in front - i.e. hands already in use
elsewhere and no time to use the horn?

--

______________________________________

Tamyka Bell, PhD Student School of Human Movement Studies
The University Of Queensland
w: +61-7-33656105
x: +61-4-00782972
y: [email hidden]
______________________________________

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Tamyka Bell
Intro (for those not from BrisVegas): We have a
bike/pedestrian path that runs for about 4 km along (and
sometimes over) the Brisbane River from the City Gardens out
towards a suburb called Toowong. This stretch of the river
is filled with office blocks and a main road runs along the
waterfront, called Coronation Drive (or just Coro), that has
about 5 lanes - two each way and a bus/transit lane for peak
hour. The road none the less gets backed up the entire
length and even walking along the path to the city is faster
than driving by 8 a.m.

We also have members of Qld Police who ride mountain bikes
(also sometimes horses) along this path, stopping cyclists
who don't have bells on their bikes. I'm not sure the
outcome of these meetings because they haven't been out
early enough to see me on my race bike; I've only seen them
when I'm running. The reason I haven't gotten a bell is
because I prefer to yell out where I am than to just ring a
bell at someone.

Regular walk-commuters along this path tend to keep very far
left but some social strollers stand out in the middle so
cyclists are often veering left and right to go around them.
They're also often the people who get spooked by cyclists,
my mtb bell must be scary.

Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when you're
riding do you ring the bell at someone or do you call out
that you're "on the right/left" etc; and when you're a
pedestrian what do you prefer to hear? How about when people
listen to music - can you hear the bell or the voice better?

Tam

I'm not going to bore anyone with philosophy on what's right or not.

I personally did not like bells, and resisted getting one (I mean I removed those coming on new bikes anyway). It was until I started using one about a few months ago. As far as sharing the path with other users goes, the result has been terrific, so I regret I didn't use them before regardless of them being required by law.

I admit that not having a bell with the right size and shape helped not using one in the past. I bought this little bell by BBB that I've put inside the arch of the drop handle bar (operated by my right pinky). It is not intrusive to hand positions and is tucked behind the bar (yeah, no compromise in aerodynamics).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regular walk-commuters along this path tend to keep very
far left but some social strollers stand out in the
middle

Thats their right, but "the decent thing" is to move left
when they hear a bell.

You are wrong. It is an offence for a pedestrian to
unreasonably obstruct traffic, on a road or a road related
area, which includes a shared path.

I suggest that if you want to be pedantic about road rules
here, you start by learning them.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Tamyka Bell

(snip)
Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when you're
riding do you ring the bell at someone or do you call out
that you're "on the right/left" etc; and when you're a
pedestrian what do you prefer to hear? How about when people
listen to music - can you hear the bell or the voice better?

Tam

I lived in Brisbane for about three years so I know the path you're on about. It is a very busy path, from memory. You can't barrel along it at peak hour because there are too many people. I'm afraid that's bad apples. Yes, they can be inconvenient, but pedestrians on that path realistically hold you up for a pretty short time. A bell seems to be more effective at clearing the path, but I wouldn't zoom up at full speed behind a rollerblader with a walkman to test the theory...

I think that if coppers are catching people for no-bells, then you might want to spend the three bucks on a bell.

Ritch

PS. If you get caught, you can always try saying there is already a Bell on your bike...

"Tamyka Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Intro (for those not from BrisVegas): We have a
bike/pedestrian path that runs for about 4 km along (and
sometimes over) the Brisbane River from the City Gardens
out towards a suburb called Toowong. This stretch of the
river is filled with office blocks and a main road runs
along the waterfront, called Coronation Drive (or just
Coro), that has about 5 lanes - two each way and a
bus/transit lane for peak hour. The road none the less
gets backed up the entire length and even walking along
the path to the city is faster than driving by 8 a.m.

We also have members of Qld Police who ride mountain bikes
(also sometimes horses) along this path, stopping cyclists
who don't have bells on their bikes. I'm not sure the
outcome of these meetings because they haven't been out
early enough to see me on my race bike; I've only seen
them when I'm running. The reason I haven't gotten a bell
is because I prefer to yell out where I am than to just
ring a bell at someone.

Regular walk-commuters along this path tend to keep very
far left but some social strollers stand out in the middle
so cyclists are often veering left and right to go around
them. They're also often the people who get spooked by
cyclists, my mtb bell must be scary.

Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when you're
riding do you ring the bell at someone or do you call out
that you're "on the right/left" etc; and when you're a
pedestrian what do you prefer to hear? How about when
people listen to music - can you hear the bell or the
voice better?

Tam

I have been using a bell on bike paths for the last 3 or so
years that I have been commuting and I find now that even
when I am running around the Tan (in Melb) at lunchtimes, I
find my left thumb reaching for the bell when I come up
behind walkers and slower runners!! I guess it is a reflex
action like reaching for the brake pedal when you are in the
passenger seat of a car??

Would be pretty funny to actually carry a bell whilst
running......maybe I should try it because the Tan can get
pretty crowded (especially in summer)

Gags

Mike said:

SNIP

Quoted message said:

BTW, I've noticed a few bikes with horns as well as bells.
The horn is legal only in a emergency. Do people find these
useful? It would be satisfying :-)

I found that pedestrians often ignore bells, or don't
hear them.

Now I use my Air Zound horn. The horn is great for giving
pedestrians *plenty* of notice - time for them to look
around, casually move left etc. When you see them do that,
you often don't have to slow down as much as you might have
if you had just used a bell at close range.

With practice, you can "tap" an Air Zound to give a muffled
sound, instead of the full blast that you save for dangerous
drivers :-)

If I'm in a situation where I'm close and already travelling
slowly (eg just come around a corner), I use my voice.

Quoted message said:

Originally posted by Andrew Reddaway
I found that pedestrians often ignore bells, or don't
hear them.

and now it's time for the HIPPY FLIPSIDE! Yay!

As an occasional pedestrian (yes, I DO remember how to walk!)
I find that a bell OR a call of "ON YOUR RIGHT!" works fine for me.

But, I am not deaf (yet) and I have great respect for the
ultimate human kind.. cyclists.. so maybe I'm biased towards
moving over?

I do not have a bell on any of my bikes and will not likely fit one.
I ride on the road mostly and I rarely raise my voice (other than in those friendly little rider-driver exchanges) so a bell is not
likely to be used at all. Bike paths are a different matter. I
would err on the side of the bell rather than vocals for these..
as a ped anyway.

I've not been attacked with an AirZound yet.. I'll let you know
what it sounds like if Mr. Soiler gets hold of one 🙂

hippy

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Originally posted by Andrew Reddaway I found that
pedestrians often ignore bells, or don't hear them.

That's true. They think they own the paths and have some God-
given right to wander mindlessly about anywhere they please.

[...]

Quoted message said:

I do not have a bell on any of my bikes and will not
likely fit one. I

That is definitely illegal. See the Australian Road Rules.

[...]

Quoted message said:

I've not been attacked with an AirZound yet.. I'll let you
know what it sounds like if Mr. Soiler gets hold of one 🙂

Heh. Let me sneak up behind you and you'll know all about
it! Air Zounds ROOL!

--

A: Top-posters.
B: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

"Alan Erskine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]

[...]

Quoted message said:

Another point to using a bell, if it's on most current-
generation bikes, then it's slightly out of reach when
both hads are on the grips and so one hand has to come off
the grip - reduced safety. Yes, you have to have a bell
and yes, the bell must work, but there is nothing in the
regs to say that the bell has to be within easy reach
without taking a hand off the grip.

Here's something to try. Profile Design make a thing called
a Universal Computer Mount (they're about $20 in Oz; I got 2
for $5 each at a Rebel sale, heheh).

profile-profile-Open ↗
design.com/product_pages/acc_computermount.html

Basically it's a thumb sized bit of plastic that mounts at
90° on your handlebars or aerobars. Check out the photo of
one attached to the aerobars on that link. Now, imagine one
mounted vertically on top of your handlebars right over to
the left next to your handgrips, with a bell or AirZounds
trigger mounted on it so it's effectively lying on its side.
That way you should be able to reach it with your thumb even
whilst keeping a grip with your fingers.

--

A: Top-posters.
B: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

"Alan Erskine" <[email hidden]> writes:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Another point to using a bell, if it's on most current-
generation bikes, then it's slightly out of reach when
both hads are on the grips and so one hand has to come off
the grip - reduced safety.

On my bike (A flat bar MTB) I've moved the bell so the bell
leaver is just above the clicky gear lever. THough on a rode
bike you most likely don't have this option.

--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
dformosa.zeta.org.auSpelling.htmlOpen ↗ to find
out more. Free the Memes.

Glen F said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regular walk-commuters along this path tend to keep
very far left but some social strollers stand out in
the middle

Thats their right, but "the decent thing" is to move left
when they hear a bell.

You are wrong. It is an offence for a pedestrian to
unreasonably obstruct traffic, on a road or a road related
area, which includes a shared path.

Where I ride, walking in the middle of the path is not
the same as blocking it. Perhaps they are narrower
where you live.

Quoted message said:

I suggest that if you want to be pedantic about road rules
here, you start by learning them.

I see big signs saying that pedestrians have right of
way, whatever that means. I tried to look up current
bell/horn laws, but the WA govt law website is a total
mess. I think thats deliberate, so you need to subscribe
to get full-features.

Can you suggest any searchable or downloadablee websites in
Australia for road laws?

Otherwise I could modify a perl script to download and
reassemble acts from the WA SLP
slp.wa.gov.auswans.nsfOpen ↗ But thats a
lot of work.

ritcho said:

Tamyka Bell said:

(snip) Leads me to the question: what do you prefer -
when you're riding do you ring the bell at someone or
do you call out that you're "on the right/left" etc;
and when you're a pedestrian what do you prefer to
hear? How about when people listen to music - can you
hear the bell or the voice better? Tam

(snip)

Quoted message said:

I think that if coppers are catching people for no-bells,
then you might want to spend the three bucks on a bell.

Ritch

PS. If you get caught, you can always try saying there is
already a Bell on your bike...

But what to do if they ask me to ring it?

Had a better solution. Bought a training bike. It's got a
bell (taken off my MTB because I'll never commute on it
again, that was a sorry waste of a beautiful machine and
she's for offroad only now) and multiple lights and it's
pretty ugly. If you're creative you can always come up with
an excuse for another bike.

--

______________________________________

Tamyka Bell, PhD Student School of Human Movement Studies
The University Of Queensland
w: +61-7-33656105
x: +61-4-00782972
y: [email hidden]
______________________________________

Tamyka Bell said:

I'd like it if they could also work on (1) the people who
throw cyclists off their bikes, bash them and chuck them
into the river at

Rough area! Perhaps its time to move?

Quoted message said:

night and (2) the people who try to run me off the road
but I guess

"Try?" If you stayed on the road, they wern't trying.

Quoted message said:

This has been a trial and error thing that has more to do
with practicality and what works than with politeness. I'm
not averse to cycle bells, but with the community by the
river they tend not to work.

"community"? Blackfellas camp? ferals? Retirees?

Quoted message said:

Haven't had an accident since I picked up this habit.
While it is the law to ring the bell, it's interesting
that such a law applies to cyclists but not rollerbladers
(also allowed on this pathway)

Rollerbladers are a real problem around the world. They
don't really fit on the road, or footpaths, or older
cycleways. But its too popular. Banning them doesnt work.
Wider shared paths seem to work OK. Most tend to pass a lot
slower than bikes though.

Quoted message said:

It would be an interesting situation on the roads if cars
had to honk their horns every time they overtook someone.

Its not a cars-vs-bikes thing. Its roads vs share paths.
Bikes not need to use a bell on the road.

Quoted message said:

I agree with that one entirely. Perhaps we can educate
pedestrians on the correct response to a bell ringing? How
do we do this?

Easy. Put up signs. "Shared path. Please keep left. cyclists
use bell.". It seems to work really well here in Perth.

There are exceptions. In places/times with large numbers of
pedestrians, and few cyclists, we just avoid. The South
Perth foreshore was a real problem on sunny weekends, but
then they built a separate footpath. Cyclist and joggers
share one path, families and tourists use the other.

I'm sorry things dont sound so good there. Where are you?

Quoted message said:

Try the riverside bikeway, Coro Drive. No, it's a problem
every day of

Brisbane?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BTW, I've noticed a few bikes with horns as well as bells.
The horn is legal only in a emergency. Do people find
these useful? It would be satisfying :-)

Tell me about it. How is an emergency defined for this -
is it one of

For cars, a horn should be used to avoid an accident. e.g. a
car or pedestrian hasn't seen you and you fear a collision.
Bells historically are just to say "I'm here". They were
permananet fixtures on carriages, sleighs and early cars.

I mean that a horn cannot just be used as a bell substitute
every time you pass someone. It might be handy if they don't
appear to notice the bell.

Quoted message said:

those bad technical definitions which means that you can
only use it if you're desperately trying to brake and turn
to avoid colliding with the crazy car-driver who just
pulled out in front - i.e. hands already in use elsewhere
and no time to use the horn?

Yeah, thats the thing. I'm not sure a horn is really much
practical use. Fun though.

"DRS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Here's something to try. Profile Design make a thing
called a Universal Computer Mount (they're about $20 in
Oz; I got 2 for $5 each at a Rebel sale, heheh).

profile-profile-Open ↗
design.com/product_pages/acc_computermount.html

[snip again]

$20 for that? A cunningly cropped shampoo lid and a cable
tie (colour-matched, of course) does a pretty good job...
though 2 for five bucks is a pretty good deal!

Ritch

"Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

BTW, I've noticed a few bikes with horns as well as bells.
The horn is legal only in a emergency. Do people find
these useful?

Australian Road Rules (rta.nsw.gov.aupts1Open ↗
21.pdf), Part 15, Additional rules for bicycle riders, 258,
Equipment on a bicycle:

"A person must not ride a bicycle that does not have:

a) at least one effective brake; and
b) a bell, horn or similar warning device, in working
order."

I'm sure there used to be [1] a rule that said "audible
warning device", which I interpreted as a good set of vocal
cords for shouting! Oh well. Good thing the cops around here
aren't as anal, and I ride off road as much as possible.

Tony F thefathippy.comthefathippy.comOpen ↗
[1] aah, the good old days...

Mike said:

Can you suggest any searchable or downloadablee websites
in Australia for road laws?

Google for "australian road rules", take the first hit:

<rta.nsw.gov.auroadrOpen ↗
austr_dl1.html>

Will take you to the RTA (Roads and Traffic Authority for
NSW) site where you can download each chapter, or the
whole thing.

Is mostly for cars, but has all the rulings for bikes as
well. While on the road, most of the car rules apply to
bikes anyway.

--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <counter.li.orgcounter.li.orgOpen ↗