Cycle-cops and bike bells

Tamyka Bell said:

We also have members of Qld Police who ride mountain bikes (also
sometimes horses) along this path, stopping cyclists who don't have
bells on their bikes.

Good on 'em. Maybe they can do the same for reflectors & lights at night.

Quoted message said:

The reason I haven't gotten a bell is
because I prefer to yell out where I am than to just ring a bell at
someone.

Hmmm ... my earlier reply is obsolete.
Your attitude makes me a little angry. Your "preference" doesnt make it
OK. Its dangerous if we do it different ways. The standard, the _law_,
is to use a bell to indicate your presence. I find safety more
import than politeness.

Quoted message said:

Regular walk-commuters along this path tend to keep very far left but
some social strollers stand out in the middle

Thats their right, but "the decent thing" is to move left when they hear
a bell.

Quoted message said:

They're also often the people who get spooked by cyclists, my mtb bell must be scary.

Not much you can do about that. I've only found it a problem on weekends
on popular paths, eg around lakes.

Quoted message said:

Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when you're riding do you
ring the bell at someone or do you call out that you're "on the

A bell. That is the law. Thats what all the signs ask me to do. Regular
path users expect it. Its instantly recognisable.
Spoken words are more easily lost in the background noise. Words
can take far too long to be recognised consciously, especially for
elderly people.

Quoted message said:

hear? How about when people listen to music - can you hear the bell or
the voice better?

The same as when I'm not listening to music. Generally the bell.
Especially compared to some female voices. But thats not really the point.

BTW, I've noticed a few bikes with horns as well as bells.
The horn is legal only in a emergency. Do people find these useful?
It would be satisfying :-)

"Tamyka Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when you're riding do you
ring the bell at someone or do you call out that you're "on the
right/left" etc; and when you're a pedestrian what do you prefer to
hear? How about when people listen to music - can you hear the bell or
the voice better?

Tam

Ok; my experience is that when I say "passing on the right/left", people ask
why I didn't use my bell. When I use my bell, people ask why I didn't just
call out.

Another point to using a bell, if it's on most current-generation bikes,
then it's slightly out of reach when both hads are on the grips and so one
hand has to come off the grip - reduced safety. Yes, you have to have a
bell and yes, the bell must work, but there is nothing in the regs to say
that the bell has to be within easy reach without taking a hand off the
grip.

--
Alan Erskine
We can get people to the Moon in five years,
not the fifteen GWB proposes.
Give NASA a real challenge
[email hidden]

Mike said:

BTW, I've noticed a few bikes with horns as well as bells.
The horn is legal only in a emergency. Do people find these useful?
It would be satisfying :-)

The australian road rules quote that a bicycle must have "a bell, horn, or
similar warning device in working order"

Doesn't say anything about horns only being used in emergency sitations.

I carry only air horns.

I've found bells no more effective than just my voice. I'm on a recumbent
trike, and many pedestrians in front to not give a wide enough berth because
they're just expecting a relatively narrow bicycle. Some pedestrians don't
even try to move over at all.

I carry horns because I spend a significant time on the road, and my voice or
some poofy bell isn't going to help against a ton worth of metal and glass.

Interestingly enough, I _rarely_ have trouble with cars/trucks etc. The only
time I've really needed the horns was when I was on a major road, and a turning
4WD didn't see me coming, or didn't expect me to be moving that quickly.

By far the most trouble I have is with pedestrians, be they on the path, or
road. (Had one woman stand in the middle of the road watching me pass, wouldn't
have been a problem if she wasn't on my bloody lane!).

If you ask me, horns are manditory.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <http://counter.li.org>

Mike said:

Tamyka Bell said:

We also have members of Qld Police who ride mountain bikes (also
sometimes horses) along this path, stopping cyclists who don't have
bells on their bikes.

Good on 'em. Maybe they can do the same for reflectors & lights at night.

They do, actually, and people with helmets incorrectly worn or not worn
at all. I'd like it if they could also work on (1) the people who throw
cyclists off their bikes, bash them and chuck them into the river at
night and (2) the people who try to run me off the road but I guess
there's a reason why the bike-cops aren't out there every day - there's
only so many of them and it's good that the token effort is enough to
worry most people into compliance.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The reason I haven't gotten a bell is
because I prefer to yell out where I am than to just ring a bell at
someone.

Hmmm ... my earlier reply is obsolete.
Your attitude makes me a little angry. Your "preference" doesnt make it
OK. Its dangerous if we do it different ways. The standard, the _law_,
is to use a bell to indicate your presence. I find safety more
import than politeness.

This has been a trial and error thing that has more to do with
practicality and what works than with politeness. I'm not averse to
cycle bells, but with the community by the river they tend not to work.
Haven't had an accident since I picked up this habit. While it is the
law to ring the bell, it's interesting that such a law applies to
cyclists but not rollerbladers (also allowed on this pathway) who, while
expected to give way, don't need to ring a bell or anything. I actually
started calling "on your right" after hearing rollerbladers saying it
while I was running. It meant I didn't have to look around before
moving. It would be an interesting situation on the roads if cars had to
honk their horns every time they overtook someone.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regular walk-commuters along this path tend to keep very far left but
some social strollers stand out in the middle

Thats their right, but "the decent thing" is to move left when they hear
a bell.

I agree with that one entirely. Perhaps we can educate pedestrians on
the correct response to a bell ringing? How do we do this?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They're also often the people who get spooked by cyclists, my mtb bell must be scary.

Not much you can do about that. I've only found it a problem on weekends
on popular paths, eg around lakes.

Try the riverside bikeway, Coro Drive. No, it's a problem every day of
the week, so much that I stopped using my bell. That being said, I'm
riding along the path at about 18 km/h compared to 30 km/h on the roads,
so I have time to react (and when it's busy sometimes under 10 km/h).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when you're riding do you
ring the bell at someone or do you call out that you're "on the

A bell. That is the law. Thats what all the signs ask me to do. Regular
path users expect it. Its instantly recognisable.
Spoken words are more easily lost in the background noise. Words
can take far too long to be recognised consciously, especially for
elderly people.

Quoted message said:

hear? How about when people listen to music - can you hear the bell or
the voice better?

The same as when I'm not listening to music. Generally the bell.
Especially compared to some female voices. But thats not really the point.

Appreciate these comments as I don't listen to music when riding but
yeah I would've thought the bell was easier.

Quoted message said:

BTW, I've noticed a few bikes with horns as well as bells.
The horn is legal only in a emergency. Do people find these useful?
It would be satisfying :-)

Tell me about it. How is an emergency defined for this - is it one of
those bad technical definitions which means that you can only use it if
you're desperately trying to brake and turn to avoid colliding with the
crazy car-driver who just pulled out in front - i.e. hands already in
use elsewhere and no time to use the horn?

--

______________________________________

Tamyka Bell, PhD Student
School of Human Movement Studies
The University Of Queensland
w: +61-7-33656105
m: +61-4-00782972
e: [email hidden]
______________________________________

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regular walk-commuters along this path tend to keep very far
left but some social strollers stand out in the middle

Thats their right, but "the decent thing" is to move left when
they hear a bell.

You are wrong. It is an offence for a pedestrian to unreasonably
obstruct traffic, on a road or a road related area, which includes
a shared path.

I suggest that if you want to be pedantic about road rules here,
you start by learning them.

Tamyka Bell said:

Intro (for those not from BrisVegas): We have a bike/pedestrian path
that runs for about 4 km along (and sometimes over) the Brisbane River
from the City Gardens out towards a suburb called Toowong. This stretch
of the river is filled with office blocks and a main road runs along the
waterfront, called Coronation Drive (or just Coro), that has about 5
lanes - two each way and a bus/transit lane for peak hour. The road none
the less gets backed up the entire length and even walking along the
path to the city is faster than driving by 8 a.m.
We also have members of Qld Police who ride mountain bikes (also
sometimes horses) along this path, stopping cyclists who don't have
bells on their bikes. I'm not sure the outcome of these meetings
because they haven't been out early enough to see me on my race bike;
I've only seen them when I'm running. The reason I haven't gotten a
bell is because I prefer to yell out where I am than to just ring a
bell at someone.
Regular walk-commuters along this path tend to keep very far left but
some social strollers stand out in the middle so cyclists are often
veering left and right to go around them. They're also often the people
who get spooked by cyclists, my mtb bell must be scary.
Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when you're riding do you
ring the bell at someone or do you call out that you're "on the
right/left" etc; and when you're a pedestrian what do you prefer to
hear? How about when people listen to music - can you hear the bell or
the voice better?
Tam

I'm not going to bore anyone with philosophy on what's right or not.

I personally did not like bells, and resisted getting one (I mean I
removed those coming on new bikes anyway). It was until I started using
one about a few months ago. As far as sharing the path with other users
goes, the result has been terrific, so I regret I didn't use them before
regardless of them being required by law.

I admit that not having a bell with the right size and shape helped not
using one in the past. I bought this little bell by BBB that I've put
inside the arch of the drop handle bar (operated by my right pinky). It
is not intrusive to hand positions and is tucked behind the bar (yeah,
no compromise in aerodynamics).

--

Tamyka Bell said:

(snip) Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when you're riding
do you ring the bell at someone or do you call out that you're "on the
right/left" etc; and when you're a pedestrian what do you prefer to
hear? How about when people listen to music - can you hear the bell or
the voice better?
Tam

I lived in Brisbane for about three years so I know the path you're on
about. It is a very busy path, from memory. You can't barrel along it at
peak hour because there are too many people. I'm afraid that's bad
apples. Yes, they can be inconvenient, but pedestrians on that path
realistically hold you up for a pretty short time. A bell seems to be
more effective at clearing the path, but I wouldn't zoom up at full
speed behind a rollerblader with a walkman to test the theory...

I think that if coppers are catching people for no-bells, then you might
want to spend the three bucks on a bell.

Ritch

PS. If you get caught, you can always try saying there is already a Bell
on your bike...

--

Mike said:

SNIP

Quoted message said:

BTW, I've noticed a few bikes with horns as well as bells.
The horn is legal only in a emergency. Do people find these useful?
It would be satisfying :-)

I found that pedestrians often ignore bells, or don't hear them.

Now I use my Air Zound horn. The horn is great for giving pedestrians
*plenty* of notice - time for them to look around, casually move left
etc. When you see them do that, you often don't have to slow down as
much as you might have if you had just used a bell at close range.

With practice, you can "tap" an Air Zound to give a muffled sound,
instead of the full blast that you save for dangerous drivers :-)

If I'm in a situation where I'm close and already travelling slowly
(eg just come around a corner), I use my voice.

"Tamyka Bell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Intro (for those not from BrisVegas): We have a bike/pedestrian path
that runs for about 4 km along (and sometimes over) the Brisbane River
from the City Gardens out towards a suburb called Toowong. This stretch
of the river is filled with office blocks and a main road runs along the
waterfront, called Coronation Drive (or just Coro), that has about 5
lanes - two each way and a bus/transit lane for peak hour. The road
none the less gets backed up the entire length and even walking along
the path to the city is faster than driving by 8 a.m.

We also have members of Qld Police who ride mountain bikes (also
sometimes horses) along this path, stopping cyclists who don't have
bells on their bikes. I'm not sure the outcome of these meetings because
they haven't been out early enough to see me on my race bike; I've only
seen them when I'm running. The reason I haven't gotten a bell is
because I prefer to yell out where I am than to just ring a bell at
someone.

Regular walk-commuters along this path tend to keep very far left but
some social strollers stand out in the middle so cyclists are often
veering left and right to go around them. They're also often the people
who get spooked by cyclists, my mtb bell must be scary.

Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when you're riding do you
ring the bell at someone or do you call out that you're "on the
right/left" etc; and when you're a pedestrian what do you prefer to
hear? How about when people listen to music - can you hear the bell or
the voice better?

Tam

I have been using a bell on bike paths for the last 3 or so years that I
have been commuting and I find now that even when I am running around the
Tan (in Melb) at lunchtimes, I find my left thumb reaching for the bell when
I come up behind walkers and slower runners!! I guess it is a reflex action
like reaching for the brake pedal when you are in the passenger seat of a
car??

Would be pretty funny to actually carry a bell whilst running......maybe I
should try it because the Tan can get pretty crowded (especially in summer)

Gags

Quoted message said:

Originally posted by Andrew Reddaway I found that pedestrians often
ignore bells, or don't hear them.

and now it's time for the HIPPY FLIPSIDE! Yay!

As an occasional pedestrian (yes, I DO remember how to walk!) I find
that a bell OR a call of "ON YOUR RIGHT!" works fine for me.

But, I am not deaf (yet) and I have great respect for the ultimate human
kind.. cyclists.. so maybe I'm biased towards moving over?

I do not have a bell on any of my bikes and will not likely fit one. I
ride on the road mostly and I rarely raise my voice (other than in those
friendly little rider-driver exchanges) so a bell is not likely to be
used at all. Bike paths are a different matter. I would err on the side
of the bell rather than vocals for these.. as a ped anyway.

I've not been attacked with an AirZound yet.. I'll let you know what it
sounds like if Mr. Soiler gets hold of one 🙂

hippy

--

"hippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Originally posted by Andrew Reddaway I found that pedestrians often
ignore bells, or don't hear them.

That's true. They think they own the paths and have some God-given right to
wander mindlessly about anywhere they please.

[...]

Quoted message said:

I do not have a bell on any of my bikes and will not likely fit one. I

That is definitely illegal. See the Australian Road Rules.

[...]

Quoted message said:

I've not been attacked with an AirZound yet.. I'll let you know what
it sounds like if Mr. Soiler gets hold of one 🙂

Heh. Let me sneak up behind you and you'll know all about it! Air Zounds
ROOL!

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

"Alan Erskine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]

[...]

Quoted message said:

Another point to using a bell, if it's on most current-generation
bikes, then it's slightly out of reach when both hads are on the
grips and so one hand has to come off the grip - reduced safety.
Yes, you have to have a bell and yes, the bell must work, but there
is nothing in the regs to say that the bell has to be within easy
reach without taking a hand off the grip.

Here's something to try. Profile Design make a thing called a Universal
Computer Mount (they're about $20 in Oz; I got 2 for $5 each at a Rebel
sale, heheh).

http://www.profile-design.com/product_pages/acc_computermount.html

Basically it's a thumb sized bit of plastic that mounts at 90° on your
handlebars or aerobars. Check out the photo of one attached to the aerobars
on that link. Now, imagine one mounted vertically on top of your handlebars
right over to the left next to your handgrips, with a bell or AirZounds
trigger mounted on it so it's effectively lying on its side. That way you
should be able to reach it with your thumb even whilst keeping a grip with
your fingers.

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 31 May 2004 13:15:00 GMT

hippy said:

As an occasional pedestrian (yes, I DO remember how to walk!) I find
that a bell OR a call of "ON YOUR RIGHT!" works fine for me.

But, I am not deaf (yet) and I have great respect for the ultimate human
kind.. cyclists.. so maybe I'm biased towards moving over?

Yup,. YOu are.

Most pedestrians think of anything that's not clearly a road for cars as
a place they can wander how they like. They expect cyclists to cope.

I was fascinated to see pedestrians on shared paths in Perth keeping
left on the whole - joggers tended to clump across the path but moved if
a cyclist used their bell - I suspect because the paths were wide and
had lines down the middle marking lanes. So the idea was planted in the
path users' minds that they should "obey road rules".

On narrow paths or ones without lines, peds class it as "footpath" and
figure it's their space.

Zebee

"Alan Erskine" <[email hidden]> writes:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Another point to using a bell, if it's on most current-generation bikes,
then it's slightly out of reach when both hads are on the grips and so one
hand has to come off the grip - reduced safety.

On my bike (A flat bar MTB) I've moved the bell so the bell leaver is
just above the clicky gear lever. THough on a rode bike you most
likely don't have this option.

--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia. See
http://dformosa.zeta.org.au/~dformosa/Spelling.html to find out more.
Free the Memes.

Glen F said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regular walk-commuters along this path tend to keep very far
left but some social strollers stand out in the middle

Thats their right, but "the decent thing" is to move left when
they hear a bell.

You are wrong. It is an offence for a pedestrian to unreasonably
obstruct traffic, on a road or a road related area, which includes
a shared path.

Where I ride, walking in the middle of the path is not the same as
blocking it. Perhaps they are narrower where you live.

Quoted message said:

I suggest that if you want to be pedantic about road rules here,
you start by learning them.

I see big signs saying that pedestrians have right of way, whatever that
means. I tried to look up current bell/horn laws, but the WA govt law
website is a total mess. I think thats deliberate, so you need to
subscribe to get full-features.

Can you suggest any searchable or downloadablee websites in Australia
for road laws?

Otherwise I could modify a perl script to download and reassemble
acts from the WA SLP http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/statutes/swans.nsf
But thats a lot of work.

ritcho said:

Tamyka Bell said:

(snip) Leads me to the question: what do you prefer - when you're riding
do you ring the bell at someone or do you call out that you're "on the
right/left" etc; and when you're a pedestrian what do you prefer to
hear? How about when people listen to music - can you hear the bell or
the voice better?
Tam

(snip)

Quoted message said:

I think that if coppers are catching people for no-bells, then you might
want to spend the three bucks on a bell.

Ritch

PS. If you get caught, you can always try saying there is already a Bell
on your bike...

But what to do if they ask me to ring it?

Had a better solution. Bought a training bike. It's got a bell (taken
off my MTB because I'll never commute on it again, that was a sorry
waste of a beautiful machine and she's for offroad only now) and
multiple lights and it's pretty ugly. If you're creative you can always
come up with an excuse for another bike.

--

______________________________________

Tamyka Bell, PhD Student
School of Human Movement Studies
The University Of Queensland
w: +61-7-33656105
m: +61-4-00782972
e: [email hidden]
______________________________________

Tamyka Bell said:

I'd like it if they could also work on (1) the people who throw
cyclists off their bikes, bash them and chuck them into the river at

Rough area! Perhaps its time to move?

Quoted message said:

night and (2) the people who try to run me off the road but I guess

"Try?" If you stayed on the road, they wern't trying.

Quoted message said:

This has been a trial and error thing that has more to do with
practicality and what works than with politeness. I'm not averse to
cycle bells, but with the community by the river they tend not to work.

"community"? Blackfellas camp? ferals? Retirees?

Quoted message said:

Haven't had an accident since I picked up this habit. While it is the
law to ring the bell, it's interesting that such a law applies to
cyclists but not rollerbladers (also allowed on this pathway)

Rollerbladers are a real problem around the world. They don't really
fit on the road, or footpaths, or older cycleways. But its too popular.
Banning them doesnt work. Wider shared paths seem to work OK. Most
tend to pass a lot slower than bikes though.

Quoted message said:

It would be an interesting situation on the roads if cars had to
honk their horns every time they overtook someone.

Its not a cars-vs-bikes thing. Its roads vs share paths. Bikes
not need to use a bell on the road.

Quoted message said:

I agree with that one entirely. Perhaps we can educate pedestrians on
the correct response to a bell ringing? How do we do this?

Easy. Put up signs. "Shared path. Please keep left. cyclists use bell.".
It seems to work really well here in Perth.

There are exceptions. In places/times with large numbers of pedestrians,
and few cyclists, we just avoid. The South Perth foreshore was a real
problem on sunny weekends, but then they built a separate footpath.
Cyclist and joggers share one path, families and tourists use the other.

I'm sorry things dont sound so good there. Where are you?

Quoted message said:

Try the riverside bikeway, Coro Drive. No, it's a problem every day of

Brisbane?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BTW, I've noticed a few bikes with horns as well as bells.
The horn is legal only in a emergency. Do people find these useful?
It would be satisfying :-)

Tell me about it. How is an emergency defined for this - is it one of

For cars, a horn should be used to avoid an accident. e.g. a car
or pedestrian hasn't seen you and you fear a collision.
Bells historically are just to say "I'm here". They were permananet
fixtures on carriages, sleighs and early cars.

I mean that a horn cannot just be used as a bell substitute every time
you pass someone. It might be handy if they don't appear to notice the bell.

Quoted message said:

those bad technical definitions which means that you can only use it if
you're desperately trying to brake and turn to avoid colliding with the
crazy car-driver who just pulled out in front - i.e. hands already in
use elsewhere and no time to use the horn?

Yeah, thats the thing. I'm not sure a horn is really much practical use.
Fun though.

"DRS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Here's something to try. Profile Design make a thing called a Universal
Computer Mount (they're about $20 in Oz; I got 2 for $5 each at a Rebel
sale, heheh).

http://www.profile-design.com/product_pages/acc_computermount.html

[snip again]

$20 for that? A cunningly cropped shampoo lid and a cable tie
(colour-matched, of course) does a pretty good job... though 2 for
five bucks is a pretty good deal!

Ritch

"Mike" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

BTW, I've noticed a few bikes with horns as well as bells.
The horn is legal only in a emergency. Do people find these useful?

Australian Road Rules
(http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/rulesregulations/downloads/pts1-21.pdf), Part 15,
Additional rules for bicycle riders, 258, Equipment on a bicycle:

"A person must not ride a bicycle that does not have:

a) at least one effective brake; and
b) a bell, horn or similar warning device, in working order."

I'm sure there used to be [1] a rule that said "audible warning device",
which I interpreted as a good set of vocal cords for shouting! Oh well. Good
thing the cops around here aren't as anal, and I ride off road as much as
possible.

Tony F
http://www.thefathippy.com
[1] aah, the good old days...