Cycle computer or Polar

"bomba" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Volker said:

If your fat, and your using mountain biking as an enjoyable way to burn

off

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fat, then the heart rate monitor is a great idea.
There is an optimal heart rate range on any given day, for the best fat
burning and fitness development. You don't really need cadence on the
mountain bike--sometimes its cool to know how fast you were spinning up

a

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short steep hill or something, but the benefit is tiny. But the Polar's

HR,

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speed, laptime, mileage, and clock functions are useful---and of course,

you

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can wear it as a normal wristwatch when you are not riding--something

you

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can't do with the Vetta :-)

Does a HRM work for mountain biking? I can see how it would work for
aerobic activities with a constant(ish) output such as running or road
biking, but I wouldn't have though HRMs lent themselves well to the
variable output of mountain biking.

If you are on a trail where your mere survival is dictated by constant
emergency output, then you know this trail can never be used for LSD days or
lower intensity days where monitoring would be useful. Maybe some days you
need to pick trails where you could ride within a range of intensity more
suitable for recovery after very intense days. The HR monitor is better for
knowing what the idea lower intensity zone is, so you don't over do or
under-do on these "aerobic only" days. On 2 days a week when you want to
blast as hard as you can, the HR monitor is just a fun toy to let you know
how hard your heart really worked, and how long it took for it to recover
( which at some point will show you how much fitter you are
getting--although riding better is an even better indication :-) Its the
days where you can't afford to go hard, because you want optimum recovery of
your aerobic enzyme system, that you really can benefit from the HR monitor.
Its too easy to ride either well under and ideal range for low intensity fat
burning, or to ride above this ideal range---its almost impossible to have a
real awareness of this perfect ideal range.
Dan V

On 2004-07-19, Dan Volker penned:

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Except that every professional-type exercise training person I've
spoken to has told me that mountain biking is awful for getting into
aerobic shape. Mountain biking is rarely aerobic, at least around
here -- lots of climbs tough enough that you're way into anaerobic,
and the trails are usually too up and down to provide consistent
exercise, anyway.

This is old school. Most recent experimenting has shown that more fat
will be burned during interval based training, than with just low
intensity ( what is typically referred to as the fat burning zone).
Mountain bikeing is often very much like interval training, and this
stimulates the metabolism far more than the slow rides, as well as
burning far more calories in a given perido of time--i.e., if you have
2 hours to ride, then two hours in zone 4, or 2 hours fluctuating in
low zone 3 and high zone 4 and 5 will burn far more fat colories than
the two hours spent riding in Zone 1 or in zone 2 ( fat burning
zones). With that said, you can't ride in zone 4 every day, or do
interval training every day--you'd trash your aerobic enzyme system
and end up overtrained and virtually unable to train. So if you can
handle 2 of these high intensity days most weeks, and sometimes 3
times per week, then on the other days, you use the HR monitor to make
sure you stay within the zone 2 area--so you don't OVERTRAIN. In the
mountains, this may be impossible--in Florida trails, it just means
riding slower and keeping an eye on HR. On some mountain areas I have
ridden in NC, and many of the Western NY trails with 1000 or so
feet of vertical, you can take it easy with small gears and you can
always take a 20 second break now and then to make sure you don't stay
in zone 3 or 4 more than a few seconds.

There is a jerk on this list ( spelled JD) that thinks that it is a
terrible crime to use mountain biking to get into better shape--he
thinks it can only be used for the purity of "mountain biking". I
believe mountain biking is an incredibly fun sport, and a great one to
help an overweight person change their unhealthy lifestyle---for this
change to occur fast enough for them to have a real shot at gaining
fitness, they need the right diet along with fairly optimal riding
intensities for 3 to 5 days per week. Like I said, I lost over 30
pounds since January of this year, and mountain biking is the only
aerobic excercise I am consistently doing.

Dan --

You're talking about fat loss. I was talking about getting into better
aerobic shape, with the goal of making the climbing parts easier/less
gaspy.

Believe me, I've been lectured about trying to mountain bike every day
=/

--
monique

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
-- Mark Twain

"Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan --

You're talking about fat loss. I was talking about getting into better
aerobic shape, with the goal of making the climbing parts easier/less
gaspy.

Believe me, I've been lectured about trying to mountain bike every day
=/

--
monique

Monique,
Believe me, if a person loses 30 pounds of fat through alot of riding ,
their VO2 max goes through the roof :-)
I could sell this as a new miracle training plan-- Become a "huge fat slob",
ride constantly like this for a year or two, then burn the fat off and
become an aerobic monster with a cardiovascular which can handle a body much
larger than what you are left with :-)

Climbing is way easier for me than it was in January. I won't be challenging
J.erk D. to high altitude climbing any time soon, but in general terms, my
aerobic went way up from the combination of fat loss, and aerobic
development caused by intervals and Long Steady Distance sessions.

Regards,
Dan V

"Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2004-07-19, Dan Volker penned:

Quoted message said:

Monique, Believe me, if a person loses 30 pounds of fat through alot
of riding , their VO2 max goes through the roof :-) I could sell this
as a new miracle training plan-- Become a "huge fat slob", ride
constantly like this for a year or two, then burn the fat off and
become an aerobic monster with a cardiovascular which can handle a
body much larger than what you are left with :-)

Climbing is way easier for me than it was in January. I won't be
challenging J.erk D. to high altitude climbing any time soon, but in
general terms, my aerobic went way up from the combination of fat
loss, and aerobic development caused by intervals and Long Steady
Distance sessions.

Yes, but by definition, long steady distance is what gives you aerobic
capability, assuming that by steady you don't mean that your heart is
pounding so hard you think it's gonna bust.

--
monique

Here's the thing---Ideally, LSD rides really require 4 and 5 hour minimums,
and 6 to 7 is better still....Few of us have that type of time available.
Its also alot easier to do a century on a road bike, as an LSD ride, than to
do the LSD equivalent on a mountain bike--unless you are riding your
mountain bike with slicks on the road :-)
If you don't want "ideal" LSD ride duration, then you can look at how much
benefit you could get from 2 or 3 intense rides per week ( 1 to 1.5 hour
durations) and 3 recovery paced Zone 2 rides of 2 hour duration each. I
think it just "fits" into the available time and lifestyle space of alot
more people to do it this way. In Greg LeMond's book on Training, even he
said that if you work for a living, and don't have the time to do 100 to 120
miles on your LSD days, you can benefit from building aerobic with
essentially the ideas I just covered.
Dan

On 2004-07-19, Dan Volker penned:

Quoted message said:

Monique, Believe me, if a person loses 30 pounds of fat through alot
of riding , their VO2 max goes through the roof :-) I could sell this
as a new miracle training plan-- Become a "huge fat slob", ride
constantly like this for a year or two, then burn the fat off and
become an aerobic monster with a cardiovascular which can handle a
body much larger than what you are left with :-)

Climbing is way easier for me than it was in January. I won't be
challenging J.erk D. to high altitude climbing any time soon, but in
general terms, my aerobic went way up from the combination of fat
loss, and aerobic development caused by intervals and Long Steady
Distance sessions.

Yes, but by definition, long steady distance is what gives you aerobic
capability, assuming that by steady you don't mean that your heart is
pounding so hard you think it's gonna bust.

--
monique

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
-- Mark Twain

Dan Vo2lker said:

There is a jerk on this list ( spelled JD) that thinks that it is a
terrible crime to use mountain biking to get into better shape--he thinks it
can only be used for the purity of "mountain biking".

Hmmm, now you're telling us all what I think. Apparently mountain
biking forgot to remove the fat between your ears.

JD

Ride-A-Lot the Kokopelli Master:

Quoted message said:

Yes, except when the pool overflows (in-ground) and the nasty bacteria
laiden ground water gets mixed in. Such was the case with the township
drinking water well last week. Three feet of sewer run-off landed in
one of 8 wells dangerously elevating e-coli and fecal coliform levels.
Fill your camelback with that stuff and you'll "run" real fast.

D A M N ! ! ! What's the advice to the public? Boil your water? Buy
bottled water? Add copious amounts of vodka to your water to get germs
hammered so they'll be too hung over to make you sick?

T o m Dillon
Lakewood, CO
Z to S to email

Dan Volker said:

that thinks that it is a
terrible crime to use mountain biking to get into better shape--he
thinks it can only be used for the purity of "mountain biking".

I'm pretty sure the philosophy is something like, "ride a mountain bike to
get
in shape for mountain biking".

PS

Dan V says:

Quoted message said:

If you are on a trail where your mere survival is dictated by constant
emergency output,

This I have GOT to hear... Where is there such a trail, and why is it that
"constant emergency output" is necessary? Beter yet, why ride it if that is
the case?

Quoted message said:

then you know this trail can never be used for LSD days

And why, oh, why would you want to ride it when high?

<snip rest>

Steve

"Stephen Baker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan V says:

Quoted message said:

If you are on a trail where your mere survival is dictated by constant
emergency output,

This I have GOT to hear... Where is there such a trail, and why is it

that

Quoted message said:

"constant emergency output" is necessary? Beter yet, why ride it if that

is

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the case?

Plenty of posters on this group have indicated that their trail riding is
anaerobic --that the vertical chellenge keeps them working very hard, so
that they can not easily ride at a "zone 2" pace ( low to mid-aerobic pace).
I don't have ANY trails like that near me---I'd have to go to NC before I
could experience this as a training problem :-)

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then you know this trail can never be used for LSD days

And why, oh, why would you want to ride it when high?

I assume you are kidding, and just so deadpan I am missing the humour
indicators in your sentance .... If not, LSD rides refer to Long Steady
Distance rides..its a roadie expression, its what they do on their long
days. NO lysergic acid diethlamide, is being discussed or used, or whatever
the chemical structure of the drug you refer to....Maybe some coca cola, as
the old school Europeans still think flat coca cola is a good energy
drink---but of course, this is just one more reason Lance is riding at a
level far beyond most Europeans ( or Americans).
Dan V

Quoted message said:

<snip rest>

Steve

On 2004-07-19, Dan Volker penned:

Quoted message said:

"Stephen Baker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan V says:

Quoted message said:

If you are on a trail where your mere survival is dictated by
constant emergency output,

This I have GOT to hear... Where is there such a trail, and why is
it that "constant emergency output" is necessary? Beter yet, why
ride it if that is the case?

Plenty of posters on this group have indicated that their trail riding
is anaerobic --that the vertical chellenge keeps them working very
hard, so that they can not easily ride at a "zone 2" pace ( low to
mid-aerobic pace). I don't have ANY trails like that near me---I'd
have to go to NC before I could experience this as a training problem
:-)

I think Dan V was referencing my comments about the difficulty of
finding aerobic trails around here.

Mind, the difference between an aerobic trail and an anaerobic trail is
largely one of conditioning. My husband is mostly aerobic on many
trails where I am definitely anaerobic. They're getting easier, so
maybe some day I'll be aerobic on them, too.

Rollins Pass was 15 miles of gradual uphill -- now that was some nice
aerobic work. I expect I'll be back there some time. The problem is,
based on the number of motorized vehicles we saw midweek, I'm sure it
would be positively infested on a weekend.

Still, I'm not aware of any interesting trails around here that allow me
to stay aerobic, at least not yet. There are flat dirt loops, but
that's no fun.

--
monique

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
-- Mark Twain

Dan V says:

Quoted message said:

Plenty of posters on this group have indicated that their trail riding is
anaerobic --that the vertical chellenge keeps them working very hard, so
that they can not easily ride at a "zone 2" pace ( low to mid-aerobic pace).

I'm still not seeing any reference to "where your mere survival is dictated by
constant emergency output," but maybe that's another roadie term?

Quoted message said:

I assume you are kidding, and just so deadpan I am missing the humour
indicators in your sentance .

Probably. I'm afraid to say that LSD still only refers to one thing in my
vocabulary.

Quoted message said:

If not, LSD rides refer to Long Steady
Distance rides..its a roadie expression,

That would explain why it made no sense ;-))

Steve

"Stephen Baker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan V says:

Quoted message said:

Plenty of posters on this group have indicated that their trail riding is
anaerobic --that the vertical chellenge keeps them working very hard, so
that they can not easily ride at a "zone 2" pace ( low to mid-aerobic

pace).

Quoted message said:

I'm still not seeing any reference to "where your mere survival is

dictated by

Quoted message said:

constant emergency output," but maybe that's another roadie term?

Its just a more enjoyable way of describing the effort that steep technical
terrain can create--- a preponderance of anaerobic efforts :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I assume you are kidding, and just so deadpan I am missing the humour
indicators in your sentance .

Probably. I'm afraid to say that LSD still only refers to one thing in my
vocabulary.

Quoted message said:

If not, LSD rides refer to Long Steady
Distance rides..its a roadie expression,

That would explain why it made no sense ;-))

Steve

Steve, I don't like Rap music either, but sooner or later, some of their
words will slip in to our vocabulary and social use.
Dan

Dan V says:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm still not seeing any reference to "where your mere survival is

dictated by

Quoted message said:

constant emergency output," but maybe that's another roadie term?

Its just a more enjoyable way of describing the effort that steep technical
terrain can create--- a preponderance of anaerobic efforts :-)

Ahah! Humour so dry I didn't see it....

Quoted message said:

Steve, I don't like Rap music either, but sooner or later, some of their
words will slip in to our vocabulary and social use.

Someone finally looked up "Non-sequitur" for Mikey. ;-)

Steve

"Dan Volker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2004-07-18, Dan Volker penned:

Quoted message said:

If your fat, and your using mountain biking as an enjoyable way to
burn off fat, then the heart rate monitor is a great idea. There is
an optimal heart rate range on any given day, for the best fat burning

snip

Quoted message said:

Like I said, I lost over 30 pounds since January of this year, and

mountain

Quoted message said:

biking is the only aerobic excercise I am consistently doing.

Regards,
Dan V

http://www.cptips.com/hrmntr.htm

--
DTW .../\.../\.../\...

I've spent most of my money on mountain biking and windsurfing.
The rest I've just wasted.

"D T W .../\..." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dan Volker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Monique Y. Mudama" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2004-07-18, Dan Volker penned:
>
> If your fat, and your using mountain biking as an enjoyable way to
> burn off fat, then the heart rate monitor is a great idea. There is
> an optimal heart rate range on any given day, for the best fat

burning

Quoted message said:

snip

Quoted message said:

Like I said, I lost over 30 pounds since January of this year, and

mountain

Quoted message said:

biking is the only aerobic excercise I am consistently doing.

Regards,
Dan V

http://www.cptips.com/hrmntr.htm

--
DTW .../\.../\.../\...

I've spent most of my money on mountain biking and windsurfing.
The rest I've just wasted.

My problem with "Perceived Exertion" as the primary tool, is that few people
have any sense of where they are in the middle ranges, which is where Zone 2
is....it is too easy to stray from 2 to zone 1, or from zone 2 to zone
three.

A big problem identified by your linked page, as the determination of max
HR. The 220 minus your age is a foolish choice for an athlete to calculate
max HR by, and probably responsible for the kid in the Individual Time Trial
"thinking" he was running at 100% of max HR. Clearly there is no way he
could do this for more than a few minutes. You really need to simulate a
time trial effort for at least 30 minutes, and then sprint till you almost
pass out at the end of it, to hit the closest thing you can to a max HR.
This could kill a person with a health problem, so many fat people would
need to use theoretical calculations, based on elaborate models and have a
doctor help them with this.
Once you "know" your max HR and your resting HR, you should go here..
http://www.fitzones.com/heartratecalc.htm
and use the calculator for the training zones for "you".

Regards,
Dan V