Custom Cassettes

Neil Smith said:

I was thinking about custom cassettes from High Path Engineering. I was
thinking of going for more closely spaced lower gears,
12/15/18/21/24/16/18/30

Shirley some mistakes there.

Quoted message said:

to protect my ageing knees. I am fortunate to have a
lot of hills about here and I was never very fast anyway. However the same
companies web sites recommends thinking in % and keeping them as even as
possible - pretty much what you get off the shelf.
If you want to protect your knees in hilly terrain, what would be best -
closely spaced lower much used gears or evenly spaced ones.

You need gears that go low enough to allow you to maintain a healthy
cadence (~>80rpm) for the terrain you use, and remain seated. Both large
and uneven jumps between gears are a problem, although in itself not a
reason to grind in an unsuitable gear. From an angle of protecting your
knees there isn't much point to the small steps between gears that you
can find on a standard 10 speed road double, that's more about
maximising efficiency for the super fit. The larger steps that you
typically find on an MTB style gearing are plenty fine enough so as not
to result in knee problems.

I'd say that there's no point in looking at a custom or exotic cassette.
If you currently can't maintain a healthy cadence using your current
gearing, you should consider switching to a gearing setup that goes
lower. In order from hardest to easiest:

Standard road double (f:52/53 - 39, r:11 - 25)
Compact road double (f:50 - 34, r:12 - 27)
Road triple (f:50 - 39 - 30, r: 12 - 27)
MTB high (f:48 - 36 - 26, r: 11 - 32)
MTB low (f:42 - 32 - 22, r: 11 - 32)

You should include the option to use MTB style gearing if a road triple
doesn't go low enough.

--
Membrane

Neil Smith said:

Dear All,
I was thinking about custom cassettes from High Path Engineering. I
was thinking of going for more closely spaced lower gears,
12/15/18/21/24/16/18/30 to protect my ageing knees.

I'm supposing that's a typo and you mean 12/15/18/21/24/26/28/30.

Quoted message said:

I am fortunate to
have a lot of hills about here and I was never very fast anyway.
However the same companies web sites recommends thinking in % and
keeping them as even as possible - pretty much what you get off the
shelf. If you want to protect your knees in hilly terrain, what would be
best - closely spaced lower much used gears or evenly spaced ones.
Any thoughts?

Plenty of low gears yes, but beyond a certain number, it's just a waste,
meaning unnecessary sacrifice elsewhere. I've tried similar experiments
myself.

Especially with a triple chainset, the gears in the 26-28-30 sequence will
be so close together that you will hardly notice any difference between one
and the next.

Yes they would /sometimes/ enable finer tuning of your cadence, but going
uphill, when you're not in a hurry, you naturally achieve the same thing by
selecting a gear that's a little too low and simply easing off the pressure
until it's just right. Gravity helps for once.

As for the other end, an over-drive gear tends to be a better idea on paper
than reality as well, I found.

For 8-speed I suggest:

13-15-17-19-21-23-26-29 or

14-15-17-19-21-23-26-29 or

14-15-17-19-21-23-26-30

~PB

Membrane said:

I'd say that there's no point in looking at a custom or exotic
cassette.

There is if you want an 8-speed touring style cassette to fit Shimano,
because Shimano don't make 'em!

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

I'd say that there's no point in looking at a custom or exotic
cassette.

There is if you want an 8-speed touring style cassette to fit Shimano,
because Shimano don't make 'em!

Afaik you can only change the gearing a little bit by changing the
cassette in the typical Shimano groupset. For example road rear
derailers are specified up to 27 teeth max. Afaik "touring style" refers
to cassettes with a greater spread of gears, for example a 11 - 32 nine
speed cassette isn't compatible with any Shimano road group, it requires
an MTB derailer with a long cage.

So I've stopped looking at non standard cassettes to get the gears I
want, plus non standard cassettes result in erratic percentage jumps.

--
Membrane

Membrane said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd say that there's no point in looking at a custom or exotic
cassette.

There is if you want an 8-speed touring style cassette to fit
Shimano, because Shimano don't make 'em!

Afaik you can only change the gearing a little bit by changing the
cassette in the typical Shimano groupset. For example road rear
derailers are specified up to 27 teeth max.

You can get a bit more out of them really.

Quoted message said:

Afaik "touring style"
refers to cassettes with a greater spread of gears, for example a 11
- 32 nine speed cassette isn't compatible with any Shimano road
group, it requires an MTB derailer with a long cage.

Not /that/ great a spread, and starting with a larger top sprocket if you're
going to use it with a traditional touring style chainset or road chainset.
So I was thinking more like 13-30 (give or take a bit).

11-32 was designed for mountain bikes.

MTB rear mechs can be used with road groups if you do want to use the
largest sprockets or the widest ranges.

Quoted message said:

So I've stopped looking at non standard cassettes to get the gears I
want, plus non standard cassettes result in erratic percentage jumps.

You could want custom purely to get an alternative range. The percentage
jumps can be bog standard if you like.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

Afaik "touring style"
refers to cassettes with a greater spread of gears, for example a 11
- 32 nine speed cassette isn't compatible with any Shimano road
group, it requires an MTB derailer with a long cage.

Not /that/ great a spread, and starting with a larger top sprocket if you're
going to use it with a traditional touring style chainset or road chainset.
So I was thinking more like 13-30 (give or take a bit).

11-32 was designed for mountain bikes.

I know, but the use of MTB gearing is common on hybrids, commuter bikes,
touring bikes and tandems. For me the gearing offered by the MTB sets is
more suitable for most cyclists. For me road gearing only makes sense
for supremely fit people or for those who only use their bike on
relatively flat terrain.

Quoted message said:

MTB rear mechs can be used with road groups if you do want to use the
largest sprockets or the widest ranges.

Are MTB derailers compatible with road shifters?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So I've stopped looking at non standard cassettes to get the gears I
want, plus non standard cassettes result in erratic percentage jumps.

You could want custom purely to get an alternative range. The percentage
jumps can be bog standard if you like.

I'm not convinced of that, and for me I've found that to get a
significantly different gearing range you need to change to another
groupset.

--
Membrane

Pete Biggs said:

Neil Smith said:

Dear All,
I was thinking about custom cassettes from High Path Engineering. I
was thinking of going for more closely spaced lower gears,
12/15/18/21/24/16/18/30 to protect my ageing knees.

I'm supposing that's a typo and you mean 12/15/18/21/24/26/28/30.

Whilst the range might be sane (though I'd look at 13-30), the spacing is
all over the place.

You want closer spacing between the smaller numbers, a jump from 12-15 is
huge ! Conversely, the 28-30 jump at the top is almost immeasurable (its
the same as a 14-15 jump lower down). As a rule of thumb, small steps of 1
or 2 at the lower ratios, steps of 3 in the middle and 4 at the top.

With that approach, I end up with: 13-14-16-18-21-24-28-32

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am fortunate to
have a lot of hills about here and I was never very fast anyway.
However the same companies web sites recommends thinking in % and
keeping them as even as possible - pretty much what you get off the
shelf. If you want to protect your knees in hilly terrain, what
would be best - closely spaced lower much used gears or evenly
spaced ones.

Sensible spacing, and low enough for you to not strain your legs. Smaller
front granny rings are often part of the answer. Too close together doesn't
really help for uphill, I find I like close-spacing in the middle when
cruising along; I can click up/down as the wind or slope alters slightly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any thoughts?

Plenty of low gears yes, but beyond a certain number, it's just a
waste, meaning unnecessary sacrifice elsewhere. I've tried similar
experiments myself.

Especially with a triple chainset, the gears in the 26-28-30 sequence
will be so close together that you will hardly notice any difference
between one and the next.

Quoted message said:

For 8-speed I suggest:

13-15-17-19-21-23-26-29 or

14-15-17-19-21-23-26-29 or

14-15-17-19-21-23-26-30

I'd go with any of the above as starters for thinking.

btw, one option I've considered for a bike is a Shimano 12-27 8speed
cassette (available if pricy) combined with smaller front rings. I've not
quite decided which way to jump when my touring bike's 14-28 7 speed
screw-on needs rebuilding into an 8-speed cassette, the apparent rarity of
the 12-27 puts me off that combination for the long term. 11-28 is available
widely as a mountain bike cassette, and combined with smaller front rings
might work quite well; I would need to do some sums to be sure.

My bike ratios:
Tourer: 50/38/28 and 14-28 7 speed (Shimano screw-on hub).
Audax: 50/40/30 and 13-29 10 speed (Campag standard bits). This might work
as well with a 34/50 compact double, but I think I prefer the way the front
rings change with a triple. This may be just 25 years of habit of ~10-tooth
gaps between front rings.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

in message <[email hidden]>, Neil Smith

(') said:

Dear All,
I was thinking about custom cassettes from High Path Engineering. I was
thinking of going for more closely spaced lower gears,
12/15/18/21/24/16/18/30 to protect my ageing knees.

Why get a custom? SRAM PG850 gives you 11-28, 11-30 or 11-32 on an 8 speed;
on 9 speed a PG950 will give you 11-32; on 10 speed most of the Campag
groups will give you a standard 13-29 option. With the Campag cassettes,
you can, of course, mix and match ratios using either Campag or Marchisio
sprockets completely as you like, since the cogs aren't bolted or rivetted
together. I'm not against High Path, but standard options are likely to
come cheaper.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Friends don't send friends HTML formatted emails.

Membrane said:

Quoted message said:

11-32 was designed for mountain bikes.

I know, but the use of MTB gearing is common on hybrids, commuter
bikes, touring bikes and tandems.

It would not be so common if Shimano provided more alternatives.

I know not everyone is bothered, but this thread is about custom cassettes
for those who are a bit more fussy about gearing.

Quoted message said:

For me the gearing offered by the
MTB sets is more suitable for most cyclists. For me road gearing only
makes sense for supremely fit people or for those who only use their
bike on relatively flat terrain.

You can have something in between the two extremes. You do't need to be
super fit or ride exclusively on flat terrain to enjoy having smaller jumps
between the gears than you get from an 11-32.

In any case (with a 26"+ wheel), 11t only makes sense with an MTB chainset.
It's a silly waste otherwise.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

MTB rear mechs can be used with road groups if you do want to use the
largest sprockets or the widest ranges.

Are MTB derailers compatible with road shifters?

Yes the rear ones are.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So I've stopped looking at non standard cassettes to get the gears I
want, plus non standard cassettes result in erratic percentage
jumps.

You could want custom purely to get an alternative range. The
percentage jumps can be bog standard if you like.

I'm not convinced of that,

A limited number of ranges are avalable off the shelf. You can build a
custom cassette with a different range and whatever jumps you like.

Quoted message said:

and for me I've found that to get a
significantly different gearing range you need to change to another
groupset.

Your "significant" must be pretty big.

~PB

Simon Brooke said:

Why get a custom? SRAM PG850 gives you 11-28, 11-30 or 11-32 on an 8
speed; on 9 speed a PG950 will give you 11-32;

There's a theme there. They all start with 11! Come on Shimano and SRAM,
do some more starting with 12 and 13, even 14 teeth.

Quoted message said:

on 10 speed most of
the Campag groups will give you a standard 13-29 option.

Yes it's lovely - but a major change for anyone currently on Shimano
8-speed.

~PB

A thoughtful discussion, thanks to all. What was particularly helpful,
though was Sheldon Browns Gear Calculator.
http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/
I have realised that number of teeth is a crude indicator of 'jumps'.
Looking at old freewheels of mine the lower middle sprockets are the most
worn. I might look at making sure that these have the most comfortable
jumps.
I am mystified by the off-the-shelf cassettes that are now available. They
almost all start with 11T. I have never had anything higher than 14T,

"Neil Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear All,
I was thinking about custom cassettes from High Path Engineering. I was
thinking of going for more closely spaced lower gears,
12/15/18/21/24/16/18/30 to protect my ageing knees. I am fortunate to have
a lot of hills about here and I was never very fast anyway. However the
same companies web sites recommends thinking in % and keeping them as even
as possible - pretty much what you get off the shelf.
If you want to protect your knees in hilly terrain, what would be best -
closely spaced lower much used gears or evenly spaced ones.
Any thoughts?
Below is the link to the High Path web page.
http://www.highpath.co.uk/cycles/notes/10.html

Neil Smith said:

A thoughtful discussion, thanks to all. What was particularly helpful,
though was Sheldon Browns Gear Calculator.
http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/
I have realised that number of teeth is a crude indicator of 'jumps'.
Looking at old freewheels of mine the lower middle sprockets are the
most worn. I might look at making sure that these have the most
comfortable jumps.
I am mystified by the off-the-shelf cassettes that are now available.
They almost all start with 11T. I have never had anything higher than
14T,

Going back to earlier in the thread, I think the way out with stock
Shimano(*) cassettes is to include the front chainrings in the
considerations, and not rule out MTB front rings combined with road rear
cassette. Road cassettes typically start with 12T or 13T.

For example, my old tourer runs 14-28 (7 speed) on the back and 28-38-50 on
the front. Pretty standard old-school touring triple. The rear cassette has
a 1:2 overall range (divide by smallest cog), so look for something with a
1:2, and then adjust the front rings to give the required road speeds.

Going through the Shimano catelogues, a 12-25 (8 speed road) cassette gives
fractionally more than 1:2, so its a candidate and now to fiddle with the
front rings.

Staying with my traditional 5-arm crankset, I could fit: 24-36-46 (24 being
the smallest I can fit, TA those sizes of rings) and the bottom ratio is a
fraction lower (probably not noticable), I get one higher top gear. There
appears to be lots of moderate jumps in the middle of the gear range (45-80
gear inches on a 700c wheel).

With a new mountain bike standard 22-32-44 crankset, I'd get about the same
top gear and a significantly lower bottom gear. In both cases, I suspect
(ie. not done sums) I'd get away with a medium road derailleur and not need
an extra-long MTB example.

(* as quoted elsewhere in thread, Campagnolo do a completely sensible and
rather nice 13-29 in 10 speed. Mated to a standard 30/40/50 triple, its a
delight. I have a bike with such an arrangement ).

regards,

- Nigel

Quoted message said:

"Neil Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear All,
I was thinking about custom cassettes from High Path Engineering. I
was thinking of going for more closely spaced lower gears,
12/15/18/21/24/16/18/30 to protect my ageing knees. I am fortunate
to have a lot of hills about here and I was never very fast anyway.
However the same companies web sites recommends thinking in % and
keeping them as even as possible - pretty much what you get off the
shelf. If you want to protect your knees in hilly terrain, what would be
best - closely spaced lower much used gears or evenly spaced ones.
Any thoughts?
Below is the link to the High Path web page.
http://www.highpath.co.uk/cycles/notes/10.html

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

In article <[email hidden]>, Neil Smith
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Dear All,
I was thinking about custom cassettes from High Path Engineering. I was
thinking of going for more closely spaced lower gears,
12/15/18/21/24/16/18/30 to protect my ageing knees. I am fortunate to have a
lot of hills about here and I was never very fast anyway. However the same
companies web sites recommends thinking in % and keeping them as even as
possible - pretty much what you get off the shelf.
If you want to protect your knees in hilly terrain, what would be best -
closely spaced lower much used gears or evenly spaced ones.
Any thoughts?

When you're climbing and not too bothered about speed you don't need
very closely spaced gears - settle into one that's comfortable, if you
need to change down and it's a wide jump just slow a bit until you reach
your ideal cadence. This does mean that if you want to shift up you'll
need to spin a bit, but AFAIK spinning never did knees any harm.
An alternative solution is to go for tiny chainrings with a straight-
through block, which gives you close low and medium gears but no top end
(and will be hard on the chain).

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In any case (with a 26"+ wheel), 11t only makes sense with an MTB
chainset. It's a silly waste otherwise.

50t front ring, 11t on the back gets used a reasonable amount here. But
there are two of us pedalling, and it's only on the downhills :-)

cheers,
clive

Clive George said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In any case (with a 26"+ wheel), 11t only makes sense with an MTB
chainset. It's a silly waste otherwise.

50t front ring, 11t on the back gets used a reasonable amount here.
But there are two of us pedalling, and it's only on the downhills :-)

That's cheating ;-)

Other exceptions I can think of are racing, time trialing and slip
streaming.

~PB