Cunego's naturally elevated hematocrit

Shayana Kadidal said:

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise
hematocrit -- any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit
population corresponds to the naturally elevated
testosterone population?

Do you have a reference for this?

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Velonews reports that Cunego has a naturally elevated
hematocrit -- presumably that means over 50% or close
enough such that the 50% rule would create false positives
if applied to him. In any event, they state he's allowed
to race over 50%.

So, a few questions:

Anyone have any idea how they determine that someone has
a naturally elevated hematocrit? (Historical test
results back to your teens? Extended tests over the
course of a year?)

How high does your natural level have to be before they'll
exempt you from the 50% rule? (47%? 49%? over 50?)

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise
hematocrit -- any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit
population corresponds to the naturally elevated
testosterone population?

Surprisingly, I couldn't find answers in the archives.
Would have thought these issues would have been thoroughly
threshed out in 1999.--Shayana Kadidal

Take a look here, this was a huge story in British cycling.
Maybe theres some more info in the procycling archieves
velonews.com5304.0.htmlOpen ↗

Charley's father was also tested and found to have a
naturally high level. This case was well documented in the
British cycling press.

Jan

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Velonews reports that Cunego has a naturally elevated
hematocrit -- presumably that means over 50% or close
enough such that the 50% rule would create false positives
if applied to him. In any event, they state he's allowed
to race over 50%.

So, a few questions:

Anyone have any idea how they determine that someone has
a naturally elevated hematocrit? (Historical test
results back to your teens? Extended tests over the
course of a year?)

If you keep failing or pushing the limit on haematocrit
tests, but pass EPO tests, they'll probably take a look at
your close family's haematocrit.

It seems to be genetic; if one or both of your parents, who
presumably have no reason to want an elevated haematocrit,
nevertheless have one, then it strongly suggests that your
haematocrit is where it is because of your parents not your
'supplements'.

Since 'normal' is 40-ish percent, you'd expect to find some
people whose genetics are such that they naturally sit close
to 50%; you'd also expect to find some people who naturally
sit near 30%. However sport in general will tend to select
for the former and against the latter; not that haematocrit
is the only thing that matters.

Peter

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Anyone have any idea how they determine that someone has
a naturally elevated hematocrit? (Historical test
results back to your teens? Extended tests over the
course of a year?)

Extended tests with no other indications of tampering are
sufficient medically, but it also helps if your immediate
family also shows elevated hematocrit. You can get a 'pass'
for hamatocrits from 50-54% but I don't believe that you are
allowed to race if you are above that.

Quoted message said:

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise
hematocrit -- any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit
population corresponds to the naturally elevated
testosterone population?

That's a new one on me. High testosterone doesn't relate
closely to high hematocrit as far as I know.

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Velonews reports that Cunego has a naturally elevated
hematocrit -- presumably that means over 50% or close
enough such that the 50% rule would create false
positives if applied to him. In any event, they state
he's allowed to race over 50%.

So, a few questions:

Anyone have any idea how they determine that someone has
a naturally elevated hematocrit? (Historical test
results back to your teens? Extended tests over the
course of a year?)

How high does your natural level have to be before
they'll exempt you from the 50% rule? (47%? 49%?
over 50?)

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise
hematocrit -- any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit
population corresponds to the naturally elevated
testosterone population?

Surprisingly, I couldn't find answers in the archives.
Would have thought these issues would have been
thoroughly threshed out in 1999.--Shayana Kadidal

Take a look here, this was a huge story in British
cycling. Maybe theres some more info in the procycling
archieves
velonews.com5304.0.htmlOpen ↗

Charley's father was also tested and found to have a
naturally high level. This case was well documented in the
British cycling press

. Cunego and his father have both a natural level of 52-53
%. So he is indeed allowed to ride over 50 %. It doesn't
seem fair. Isn't it possible to invent some product to rise
the hematocrit level so his rivals could at least compete at
equal terms?

Benjo Maso

benjo maso said:

Cunego and his father have both a natural level of 52-53
%. So he is indeed allowed to ride over 50 %. It doesn't
seem fair. Isn't it possible to invent some product to
rise the hematocrit level so his rivals could at least
compete at equal terms?

Jacques Anquetil had a novel solution to expanding the gene
pool to take care of this competition problem.

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Velonews reports that Cunego has a naturally elevated
hematocrit -- presumably that means over 50% or close
enough such that the 50% rule would create false positives
if applied to him. In any event, they state he's allowed
to race over 50%.

So, a few questions:

Anyone have any idea how they determine that someone has
a naturally elevated hematocrit? (Historical test
results back to your teens? Extended tests over the
course of a year?)

How high does your natural level have to be before they'll
exempt you from the 50% rule? (47%? 49%? over 50?)

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise
hematocrit -- any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit
population corresponds to the naturally elevated
testosterone population?

Surprisingly, I couldn't find answers in the archives.
Would have thought these issues would have been thoroughly
threshed out in 1999.--Shayana Kadidal

The answer as to the procedure is located on the UCI website
although it takes some searching. In short, a person needs
to have 4 blood tests (specific parameters) over the course
of 6 weeks. The results must include a urine specific
gravity. In addition, a hematologist must certify the
results and write a letter stating that the person is
otherwise healthy and that the high HCT is naturally
occurring. The UCI then sets a level for that person that
cannot be exceeded. For example, a person with a high
hematocrit of 52 might have his level set at 53. One can
then not exceed his specific limit.

Here is the link..http://www.uci.ch/english/health_sante/do-
cs_2003/UCI_certificate_2003. pdf

"Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shayana Kadidal said:

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise
hematocrit -- any idea if the naturally elevated h'crit
population corresponds to the naturally elevated
testosterone population?

Do you have a reference for this?

Testosterone is involved in the production of RBC so a link
is possible.

"Peter Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Velonews reports that Cunego has a naturally elevated
hematocrit -- presumably that means over 50% or close
enough such that the 50% rule would create false
positives if applied to him. In any event, they state
he's allowed to race over 50%.

So, a few questions:

Anyone have any idea how they determine that someone has
a naturally elevated hematocrit? (Historical test
results back to your teens? Extended tests over the
course of a year?)

If you keep failing or pushing the limit on haematocrit
tests, but pass

EPO

Quoted message said:

tests, they'll probably take a look at your close family's
haematocrit.

It seems to be genetic; if one or both of your parents,
who presumably

have

Quoted message said:

no reason to want an elevated haematocrit, nevertheless
have one, then it strongly suggests that your haematocrit
is where it is because of your parents not your
'supplements'.

Since 'normal' is 40-ish percent, you'd expect to find
some people whose genetics are such that they naturally
sit close to 50%; you'd also expect

to

Quoted message said:

find some people who naturally sit near 30%. However sport
in general will tend to select for the former and against
the latter; not that haematocrit is the only thing that
matters.

Peter

Endurance training however tends to expand plasma volume far
greater than the increase in RBC so hematocrit actually can
be (and often is) lower in an endurance athlete. Seems
backwards on the face of it.

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

benjo maso said:

Cunego and his father have both a natural level of 52-53
%. So he is

indeed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

allowed to ride over 50 %. It doesn't seem fair. Isn't
it possible to

invent

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

some product to rise the hematocrit level so his rivals
could at least compete at equal terms?

Jacques Anquetil had a novel solution to expanding the
gene pool to take care of this competition problem.

An interesting solution, but rather inefficient. Only one
son! He should have thought of the gynaecologist in Milan
Kundera's "The Farewell Party" who inseminated all of his
patients with hin own sperm, hoping to have found a way that
all men would become brothers...

Benjo Maso

benjo maso said:

Cunego and his father have both a natural level of 52-53
%. So he is indeed allowed to ride over 50 %. It doesn't
seem fair. Isn't it possible to invent some product to
rise the hematocrit level so his rivals could at least
compete at equal terms?

I think there is a product on the market for this. It's
called EPO or something like that. Yes it would definitely
even out the score a bit.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kyle Legate" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2i02hhFhk89kU1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Shayana Kadidal said:

Finally, I've read that high testosterone levels raise
hematocrit -- any idea if the naturally elevated
h'crit population corresponds to the naturally
elevated testosterone population?

Do you have a reference for this?

Testosterone is involved in the production of RBC so a
link is possible.

A medline search using "testosterone rbc production" pulled
up articles stating that testosterone affects erythroid
glucose metabolism (no stated effect on proliferation or
iron level), and a separate article suggests that test
supplementation seems to have a slight effect on iron uptake
in female rats only. An earlier search using "testosterone
hematocrit" and "testosterone erythropoesis" gave nothing
either. So now I'll have to ask you for references as well.

The place I had read about the link between testosterone
supplementation and high h'crit was on an impotence message
board (which came up on a search, I wasn't browsing!), where
they were discussing a poster's statement that he had tested
at >50% h'crit after taking testosterone (presumably to
treat the impotence). And another poster said that was not
uncommon. (Not much of a "reference," I know.)

Don't men have higher h'crit than women, across the board?--
Shayana Kadidal

Quoted message said:

That's a new one on me. High testosterone doesn't relate
closely to high hematocrit as far as I know.

"Shayana Kadidal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Don't men have higher h'crit than women, across the
board?--Shayana

According to Williams Hematology the normal range of men
and women is:

Men: 42-50% with a mean of 46% (mine is usually 48%) Women:
36-45% with a mean of 40%

Women also have a higher percentage of body fat and muscle
tissue that generates slightly less power. There is no way
that women can generate the sort of power it takes to race
with men of the same weight.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Kyle Legate
A medline search using "testosterone rbc production" pulled
up articles stating that testosterone affects erythroid
glucose metabolism (no stated effect on proliferation or
iron level), and a separate article suggests that test
supplementation seems to have a slight effect on iron uptake
in female rats only. An earlier search using "testosterone
hematocrit" and "testosterone erythropoesis" gave nothing
either. So now I'll have to ask you for references as well.

Steroidal hormones can increase the total blood volume, which is independent of hematocrit (rbc concentration), although the overall effect may be similar (more rbcs = more O2).

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Jan
Take a look here, this was a huge story in British cycling.
Maybe theres some more info in the procycling archieves
velonews.com5304.0.htmlOpen ↗

In this case, the high hematocrit is almost certainly due to the rider's removed spleen. The spleen removes rbcs from the blood, so it seems logical.

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TritonRider said:

Tom! How dare you cite science that contradicts the PC
law that everyone is equal! Don't you know that Danny
Devito, Arnold, Bev Francis, Sergio Oliva, and Lance
all should have the same results no matter what the
sport is? If not, someone has to file a discrimination,
or hate crime lawsuit. Bill C

Taking lessons from the President, have you? washingtonpost.comA4757Open ↗
2004May31.html

One day you French will remember that we Americans don't
like to register to read articles. If it was that important
someone will quote it.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Kunich said:

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2i5kjkFiu2rbU1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

TritonRider said:

Tom! How dare you cite science that contradicts the
PC law that everyone is equal! Don't you know that
Danny Devito, Arnold, Bev Francis, Sergio Oliva, and
Lance all should have the same results no matter what
the sport is? If not, someone has to file a
discrimination, or hate crime lawsuit. Bill C

Taking lessons from the President, have you? washingtonpost.comA4757Open ↗
2004May31.html

One day you French will remember that we Americans don't
like to register to read articles.

Asking the French to remember something positive about
Americans...? Heh, you're funny!

-WG

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2i5kjkFiu2rbU1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

TritonRider said:

Tom! How dare you cite science that contradicts the
PC law that everyone is equal! Don't you know that
Danny Devito, Arnold, Bev Francis, Sergio Oliva, and
Lance all should have the same results no matter what
the sport is? If not, someone has to file a
discrimination, or hate crime lawsuit. Bill C

Taking lessons from the President, have you? washingtonpost.comA4757Open ↗
2004May31.html

One day you French will remember that we Americans don't
like to register to read articles...

"For President Bush, this is the season of the straw man. It
is an ancient debating technique: Caricature your opponent's
argument, then knock down the straw man you created."