Culture Wars (2 Chapters)

Luigi de Guzman said:

1. My Dad is terrified of bicycles. He thinks it's futile for me to

<snip>

Quoted message said:

fear. All he has to do is abandon the fear and get on the road, and ride safely, and he will
discover there is nothing whatsoever to fear. He refuses. "Why should you impose an ordeal on
me?," he says.

Indeed, why try to force somebody to ride? If he's unwilling, let him continue not riding. Riding,
as blasphemous as this may sound, is not necessary for most people.

Quoted message said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our
ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO
STRAIGHT."

I hope you weren't in the right-turn lane. Whether on bicycle or burning dinosaur juice, when
there's no right-turn lane, I stop as far left in my lane as possible to allow right-turners to take
the right turn on red. This occasionally creates a problem where people think I intend to turn left,
so they pull up next to me and proceed to block the so-created right-turn lane; then the light turns
green, and we both go straight. I wonder if they think I'm a jerk because I didn't turn left, or if
they feel like a jerk because they didn't turn right? Hmm...
--
Rick Onanian

Luigi de Guzman said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our
ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO
STRAIGHT."

At an intersection where there is a shared lane for right turn and straight-through traffic, why not
merge to the center of the lane while stopping, letting people who want to turn right do so? It is
often safely possible and definitely courteous when it is. I have had good luck with this approach.
Occasionally someone will even thank me out of a car window for doing so.
--
Ben Pfaff email: [email hidden] web: benpfaff.orgbenpfaff.orgOpen ↗

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 15:48:56 -0800, Ben Pfaff <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Luigi de Guzman said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our
ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO
STRAIGHT."

At an intersection where there is a shared lane for right turn and straight-through traffic, why
not merge to the center of the lane while stopping, letting people who want to turn right do so? It
is often safely possible and definitely courteous when it is. I have had good luck with this
approach. Occasionally someone will even thank me out of a car window for doing so.

I'd probably do this if I were alone, but there were two of us, and my brother's not sure of himself
in traffic, yet.

There was someone else in the left-turn lane, as it happend, anyway. I don't much like the idea of
being caught in-between....

-Luigi

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:45:36 -0500, Rick Onanian <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Luigi de Guzman said:

1. My Dad is terrified of bicycles. He thinks it's futile for me to

<snip>

Quoted message said:

fear. All he has to do is abandon the fear and get on the road, and ride safely, and he will
discover there is nothing whatsoever to fear. He refuses. "Why should you impose an ordeal on
me?," he says.

Indeed, why try to force somebody to ride? If he's unwilling, let him continue not riding. Riding,
as blasphemous as this may sound, is not necessary for most people.

I'm not forcing him. I'm encouraging him to try.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our
ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO
STRAIGHT."

I hope you weren't in the right-turn lane. Whether on bicycle or burning dinosaur juice, when
there's no right-turn lane, I stop as far left in my lane as possible to allow right-turners to
take the right turn on red. This occasionally creates a problem where people think I intend to turn
left, so they pull up next to me and proceed to block the so-created right-turn lane; then the
light turns green, and we both go straight. I wonder if they think I'm a jerk because I didn't turn
left, or if they feel like a jerk because they didn't turn right? Hmm...

This is one of those questionable situations, I guess. I'd yield left if there weren't someone in
the left-turning lane. And what happens when there's straight-through traffic behind the right-
turning pickup?

I took the risk and the lane. I hate being an [censored] in traffic, but I didn't see any
other way out.

-Luigi

Luigi de Guzman said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our
ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO
STRAIGHT."

You were wrong, IMO. Either you should move to left far enough to let right turners go (best
option), or pull over to far right and let them turn in front of you (not as good, as then you need
to re-claim the lane when the light changes).

Like another said, I often get nods of appreciation for being courteous in this very situation.

Bill "not a blocker" S.

"Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is one of those questionable situations, I guess. I'd yield left if there weren't someone in
the left-turning lane. And what happens when there's straight-through traffic behind the right-
turning pickup?

I took the risk and the lane. I hate being an [censored] in traffic, but I didn't see any other
way out.

You sound intelligent and polite. There are times when you block traffic and times when they block
you. No big deal if you are polite about it.

Luigi de Guzman said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO STRAIGHT."

I think the only thing I'd do different would be to say "Sorry, buddy" instead of "Tough, buddy."

At intersections where there are lots of right turns on red and I'm going straight, I'll be dead center in the lane. (Your position in the lane should indicate your direction.) I'll let right-turners by if the "apron" (or widening curve) of the road I'm on is sufficient. But when riding with another cyclist, we'll doubtlessly stop side by side, just as two motorcycles would, and there wouldn't be room for RTOR. So I think you did right.

Contrary to some opinions, I definitely don't want to pull far enough left to be mistaken for a left-turner. I don't want them racing straight by me on my right.

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, omit what's between "at" and "cc"]

In article <[email hidden]>, sorni@bite-
me.san.rr.com says...

Quoted message said:

Luigi de Guzman said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO STRAIGHT."

You were wrong, IMO. Either you should move to left far enough to let right turners go (best option), or pull over to far right and let them turn in front of you (not as good, as then you need to re-claim the lane when the light changes).

I agree that this would be nice, and do it whenever possible, but there are places on my regular ride routes where the combination straight- through/right turn lane is too narrow for either of those options, and there is no shoulder to speak of. In that case, I have no option but to take the lane. There is simply not enough room in the combination of lane and shoulder for both a bike and a car side by side.

There used to be enough room, but when they put in a dedicated left turn lane, they narrowed both the remaining lane and the shoulder.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:32:03 -0500, Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]> from

Cox Communications said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO STRAIGHT."

Why would you do that in the right lane ? Take the right edge of the left lane.

--
[email hidden]
You don't have to be ashamed of using your own ideas.
40

Kevan Smith said:

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:32:03 -0500, Luigi de Guzman wrote

Quoted message said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO STRAIGHT."

Why would you do that in the right lane ? Take the right edge of the left lane.

yea, i agree. and then move over to the right side of the right lane when a car moves up that's going straight. that's my normal practice.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

"frkrygow" <"frkrygow"@omitcc.ysu.edu> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Luigi de Guzman said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO STRAIGHT."

I think the only thing I'd do different would be to say "Sorry, buddy" instead of "Tough, buddy."

At intersections where there are lots of right turns on red and I'm going straight, I'll be dead center in the lane. (Your position in the lane should indicate your direction.) I'll let right-turners by if the "apron" (or widening curve) of the road I'm on is sufficient. But when riding with another cyclist, we'll doubtlessly stop side by side, just as two motorcycles would, and there wouldn't be room for RTOR. So I think you did right.

I'm with Frank. It may be a courtesy to let the right turners sneak by -- but it is a courtesy, not a requirement.

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:32:03 -0500, Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]>

from

Quoted message said:

Cox Communications said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO STRAIGHT."

Why would you do that in the right lane ? Take the right edge of the left

lane.

Unfortunately, then you may end up between the lanes when the light changes as the straight-thru traffic behind the right turner comes to the front.

Usually, the rightmost lane is for straight-thru or right turning traffic. If it were a car in the right lane instead of Luigi on his bike, there'd be no assumed problem. The guy in the pickup would jut have to wait.

I try to let right turners go around to my right, but trying to take part of the left lane at an intersection is tough.

Pete

Quoted message said:

Luigi de Guzman [email hidden]

wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO STRAIGHT."

I likely would have phrased any reply (If I even bothered to make one. It sounds like a case of "better left unsaid" to me.) but unless it was a right turn only lane you were 100% in the right. Would he have honked and shouted had he been blocked by another motor vehicle? Right turn on red is *allowed* in many areas. Running red lights to allow someone behind you to turn right on red is not. Life's SO unfair. <g>

Regards, Bob Hunt

Mike Kruger said:

I'm with Frank. It may be a courtesy to let the right turners sneak by -- but
it is a courtesy, not a requirement.

i'm not sure that's what frank was saying, but that's definitely true. same as
with a car .. it's a courtesy not a requirement. to their credit, *MOST* cars
treat it that way.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

I was driving my car, waiting at a stoplight, straight ahead + right turn lane,
no turn signal, no cross traffic. LARGE pickup pulls up behind me and blows horn.
I sit and wait for green light to proceed straight. Another toot I might have
parked and asked him what he wanted.

Luigi de Guzman wrote: <snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up.
Honks. We hold our ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts.
"TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO STRAIGHT."

<snip

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 03:10:17 GMT, "Pete" <[email hidden]> from Road Runner High

Speed Online url='http://www.rr.com/'http://www.rr.com/url said:

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:32:03 -0500, Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]>

from

Quoted message said:

Cox Communications said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up.
Honks. We hold our ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts.
"TOUGH, BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO STRAIGHT."

Why would you do that in the right lane ? Take the right edge of the left

lane.

Unfortunately, then you may end up between the lanes when the light changes as
the straight-thru traffic behind the right turner comes to the front.

Then you make a hand signal to get back into the right lane.

--
[email hidden]
Feed the recording back out of the medium.
77

Fri, 05 Mar 2004 18:32:03 -0500, <[email hidden]>,
Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]> wrote: \snip

Quoted message said:

He refuses. "Why should you impose an ordeal on me?," he says.

You'd feel turdy if anything bad happened to your dad. His fear is setting
himself up for it. Ride with him and your brothers on the trails until he's more
confident on the bike. And even if he never becomes a regular vehicular cyclist,
he will _enjoy_ the rides.

That and give them nothing about which to say, "I told you so".

Quoted message said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red pickup truck pulls up.
Honks. We hold our ground. "I GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH,
BUDDY" I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO STRAIGHT."

If you aren't starteld, igore the horn. Then a delayed, inquisitive, single raised-
brow, over-the-shoulder version of "The Eye" inspecting something from a sewer
says it all without straining your voice.

Smiling, shrugging and head nodding works good too. Especially when you can keep
it up after the light turns green.
--
zk

Luigi de Guzman wrote ...

" 1. My Dad is terrified of bicycles. He thinks it's
futile for me to argue for my rights on the road, since
in a confrontation against any car, I will lose. "Is it
worth your life?" I contend that he's proceeding from
premises that arise from fear. All he has to do is
abandon the fear ..."

For mine, this is the single greatest inhibitor in getting
larger numbers of folk cycling.

Learning to ride on the road safely as a kid is one
antidote.

Lots of quiet roads with a patient teacher are another.

Cycle tracks are not - they give a false impression of
safety and an excessive fear of the road remains.

I wish there was a better antidote.

best, Andrew

frkrygow said:

Luigi de Guzman said:

2. Brother and I stopped at a red light. Big old red
pickup truck pulls up. Honks. We hold our ground. "I
GOT THE RIGHT-TURN ON RED!" he shouts. "TOUGH, BUDDY"
I say. "WE'RE WAITING TO GO STRAIGHT."

I think the only thing I'd do different would be to say
"Sorry, buddy" instead of "Tough, buddy."

At intersections where there are lots of right turns on
red and I'm going straight, I'll be dead center in the
lane. (Your position in the lane should indicate your
direction.) I'll let right-turners by if the "apron" (or
widening curve) of the road I'm on is sufficient. But when
riding with another cyclist, we'll doubtlessly stop side
by side, just as two motorcycles would, and there wouldn't
be room for RTOR. So I think you did right.

Contrary to some opinions, I definitely don't want to pull
far enough left to be mistaken for a left-turner. I don't
want them racing straight by me on my right.

Sometimes you can just pull farther ahead, still "in lane"
yet far enough away to allow a RTOR.

Complicating factors are the intersection itself, cars on
the left making left turns in front of you, and simply not
being able to adequately see the light turn green.

You'll get the message pretty quick that the light has
changed though. Either watch the state of lights in
intersecting road, or watch the cars behind you (rear
view mirror).

I always try to accommodate cars as much as possible. But
sometimes, it just can't really be done, and pulling
yourself out of the roadway simply isn't required. The guy
in the car would have to wait if you were in another car, or
motorcycle or tractor. Sometimes (often actually), drivers
simply have to wait!

SMH