cross nats? anyone?

jerry in vermont said:

just saying...its only a week away. where are all the threads...

ok, I'll bite...

Quoted message said:

...about
field limits, and price gouging, and how they are killing the sport
just like they did to mtb a few years back. How about an explanation
on how they were able to jack the price up by what, 12 bucks or
something, after registration had been open a month? Is anyone at USCF
watching? 52 bucks?

wah, wah, wah... I wanna puke everytime some middle-aged bike racer [censored]
about entry fees. I saw this whining fest on Trebon's blog. Gimme a break.
Bike racers don't know how lucky they are wrt entry fees. Less than
triathlons, comparable to running races... and you can win stuff in bike
races, unlike those other lame sports. Until there is enough competition for
your entry fee money, just be glad it isn't higher.

And yeah, *some* of the juniors are screwed, but really, how many do you
know who aren't financed by mom and dad to the tune of a few grand a year?

Quoted message said:

220 people in the B's, in ONE race, on a CROSS
course? WTF people. The end is near.

Are you crazy crossers are getting more mainstream? You complain when nobody
pays attention, and now that cross is cool and a lot of people do it, you
still complain.

Quoted message said:

anyone? anyone? buehler?

Great movie.

Quoted message said:

Oh, Page is gonna freaking race too, crazy [censored].

Who?

Mark
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com

Mark Fennell said:

Quoted message said:

...about
field limits, and price gouging, and how they are killing the sport
just like they did to mtb a few years back. How about an explanation
on how they were able to jack the price up by what, 12 bucks or
something, after registration had been open a month? Is anyone at USCF
watching? 52 bucks?

wah, wah, wah... I wanna puke everytime some middle-aged bike racer [censored]
about entry fees. I saw this whining fest on Trebon's blog. Gimme a break.
Bike racers don't know how lucky they are wrt entry fees. Less than
triathlons, comparable to running races... and you can win stuff in bike
races, unlike those other lame sports. Until there is enough competition for
your entry fee money, just be glad it isn't higher.

Dumbass -

Ya, instead of complaining, how about throwing a better race? Or
shutting up.

Either would be preferable.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Mark Fennell said:

wah, wah, wah... I wanna puke everytime some middle-aged bike racer [censored]
about entry fees. I saw this whining fest on Trebon's blog.

though i've worked to keep fees down, in my experience participation
rates are actually not very sensitive to the fee. ie. if someone really
wants to do a race, $20 here or there isn't going to change there mind.

most bike racing is entertainment for the participants, even cat 1. for
other forms of entertainment, say if you golf or go out to eat, all the
people who make it possible, the greenskeepers, or the waiters are not
volunteers, so you expect the price of the activity to include those
costs. in bike racing we expect a whole crew to work for free for the
sake of entertainment.

so i do see going in a direction where you pay a number of staff for
their time in order to be a able to put on a quality event. people are
willing to pay more for a really cool race.

Quoted message said:

And yeah, *some* of the juniors are screwed, but really, how many do you
know who aren't financed by mom and dad to the tune of a few grand a year?

we customarily subsidize the costs for juniors, but the fact is most
juniors arent footing the bill themselves, and i would say it's
actually pretty rare that the fee is the reason there aren't more
juniors racing.

Quoted message said:

wah, wah, wah... I wanna puke everytime some middle-aged bike racer [censored]
about entry fees. I saw this whining fest on Trebon's blog. Gimme a break.
Bike racers don't know how lucky they are wrt entry fees. Less than
triathlons, comparable to running races... and you can win stuff in bike
races, unlike those other lame sports. Until there is enough competition for
your entry fee money, just be glad it isn't higher.

Having raced some this year in Germany (where I am now) ... the
difference from the US was striking.

Most races I paid 5 Euro (for Masters ... which is called Senior here).
Similarly inexpensive for the other classes. And there were decent
prizes too -- cash + large food basket + bike goodies, etc.

It seems most races have grass-roots organization. They are put on by
one of the local clubs. Often in conjunction with some kind of town
festival. There was always some kind of bake sale, beer tent, food,
sometimes a band afterwards. lots of people from the town come out to
watch.

I don't know if the organizers get $ from the town, or maybe they don't
have to pay for police like we do. Or maybe the club just puts out the
money to do the race because it's a good thing for the sport.

Either way ... I got the distinct feeling that the races weren't put on
as revenue generating tools for promoters (yes, I know that is not
universally true in the US ... but it's true enough). It seems to
reflect the overall difference in attitude toward the sport in Europe
vs. in the US.

The fields were always very large, BTW. For all classes.

B.

email hidden said:

Quoted message said:

wah, wah, wah... I wanna puke everytime some middle-aged bike racer [censored]
about entry fees. I saw this whining fest on Trebon's blog. Gimme a break.
Bike racers don't know how lucky they are wrt entry fees. Less than
triathlons, comparable to running races... and you can win stuff in bike
races, unlike those other lame sports. Until there is enough competition for
your entry fee money, just be glad it isn't higher.

Having raced some this year in Germany (where I am now) ... the
difference from the US was striking.

Most races I paid 5 Euro (for Masters ... which is called Senior here).
Similarly inexpensive for the other classes. And there were decent
prizes too -- cash + large food basket + bike goodies, etc.

It seems most races have grass-roots organization. They are put on by
one of the local clubs. Often in conjunction with some kind of town
festival. There was always some kind of bake sale, beer tent, food,
sometimes a band afterwards. lots of people from the town come out to
watch.

I don't know if the organizers get $ from the town, or maybe they don't
have to pay for police like we do. Or maybe the club just puts out the
money to do the race because it's a good thing for the sport.

Either way ... I got the distinct feeling that the races weren't put on
as revenue generating tools for promoters (yes, I know that is not
universally true in the US ... but it's true enough). It seems to
reflect the overall difference in attitude toward the sport in Europe
vs. in the US.

Now that you're back in the US, what are the races you're helping to
put on here like?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

On Dec 10, 4:52 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>
wrote:
Now that you're back in the US, what are the races you're helping to

Quoted message said:

put on here like?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visithttp://www.jt10000.com
****************************- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -

Some more questions. What club was he riding for? What did he add to
that club? Which races did that club put on?
Lot's of questtions there, but there's no question that the local
support is totally different between here and there. The culture, and
local businesses totally support races.
Bill Crowther
Rad Sport Club Kaiserslautern
http://www.rsc-kaiserslautern.de/cms/index.php
Northampton Cycling Club

Quoted message said:

Now that you're back in the US, what are the races you're helping to
put on here like?

Still here in Germany actually.

But while in the US I did promote a couple of state road champs, crit
champs, another crit and helped out with other races.

I'm not whining about promoters ... it's not easy, and I know that from
experience. Just trying to point out how different the overall
environment is. For race organizers too I imagine. That they are able
to put on good races for minimal entry fees should say something. It
was like that in Italy also. And I suspect in other EU countries.

One might ask ... is that simply a reflection of the sport being more
accepted and mainstream ... or is that in part how it got to be more
accepted and popular?

Brian B.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now that you're back in the US, what are the races you're helping to
put on here like?

Still here in Germany actually.

But while in the US I did promote a couple of state road champs, crit
champs, another crit and helped out with other races.

I'm not whining about promoters ... it's not easy, and I know that from
experience. Just trying to point out how different the overall
environment is. For race organizers too I imagine. That they are able
to put on good races for minimal entry fees should say something. It
was like that in Italy also. And I suspect in other EU countries.

Dumbass -

They probably have more cash sponsors and less charges from law
enforcement/government.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Dumbass -

They probably have more cash sponsors and less charges from law
enforcement/government.

Probably. I wish I would have thought to ask the promoters about that.
It would be quite interesting to hear what they have to say.

Another interesting thing was that at all the races in the region,
there was a large bus that was always at the S/F where the officials,
announcer, finish camera, etc. would be. Unclear if this was provided
by the federation (which was my assumption) or if it came from a
business that did finish-line results.

and it was always interesting that there was a beer tent/wagon. even
at a 10am Sunday morning crit.

Brian B.

Quoted message said:

and it was always interesting that there was a beer tent/wagon. even
at a 10am Sunday morning crit.

Ryan is about to start taking German lessons.

jerry in vermont said:

just saying...its only a week away. where are all the threads about
field limits, and price gouging, and how they are killing the sport
just like they did to mtb a few years back. How about an explanation
on how they were able to jack the price up by what, 12 bucks or
something, after registration had been open a month? Is anyone at USCF
watching? 52 bucks? 220 people in the B's, in ONE race, on a CROSS
course? WTF people. The end is near.

anyone? anyone? buehler?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
No, my name's not Buehler, but I'll chip in my 2 cents here. Hey
Jerry, I invite you to join the staff for my UCI races next year at
Catamount and Hanover. It'll at least give you a small taste as to
what is needed to pull a race together.

I don't know what the exact budget is for cross nationals this year,
but I would not be surprised if it's in the 6-figures. And would you
care to guess what support the NECA is getting from Colorado? Probably
nothing. So try to put together a 6-figure budget based on local and
regional sponsors, most of whom are being swayed away from the sport if
they were even interested in the first place because of all the bad
publicity lately. You're a good guy, Jerry, but don't even THINK about
the word "gouging".

And as for the late fee (the jack), there's been many discussions about
that here and elsewhere and no need to rehash that.

I do agree with you that 220 riders is going to be interested to run on
a course; I hope the course is at least a 10 minute lap for them. I
feel for Kristen and the rest of the officials who are going to have to
keep track of that one. Perhaps the chief ref could have helped here;
you know, the same one who was at Glouces..................wait a
minute, she blew off Gloucester.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Oh, Page is gonna freaking race too, crazy [censored]. He will be the guy
with one arm hanging out of his lower back...should be a good race,
lots of contendors.

Actually, he said it feels ok and he is riding without a brace or
anything, so he is going to make nats his first race back. Still, God
only gives you two arms.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm verry happy to see Jon come home to race; despite the
circumstances. I wish him the best of luck. I'll be rooting for him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

Jerry in NY

Donald Munro said:

Quoted message said:

and it was always interesting that there was a beer tent/wagon. even
at a 10am Sunday morning crit.

Ryan is about to start taking German lessons.

He's already fluid in bier.

R

"Donald Munro" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and it was always interesting that there was a beer tent/wagon. even
at a 10am Sunday morning crit.

Ryan is about to start taking German lessons.

He should be fluent in 6 weeks.

alan_atwood said:

jerry in vermont said:

watching? 52 bucks? 220 people in the B's, in ONE race, on a CROSS
course? WTF people. The end is near.

Quoted message said:

I don't know what the exact budget is for cross nationals this year,
but I would not be surprised if it's in the 6-figures. And would you
care to guess what support the NECA is getting from Colorado? Probably
nothing. So try to put together a 6-figure budget based on local and
regional sponsors, most of whom are being swayed away from the sport if
they were even interested in the first place because of all the bad
publicity lately. You're a good guy, Jerry, but don't even THINK about
the word "gouging".

And as for the late fee (the jack), there's been many discussions about
that here and elsewhere and no need to rehash that.

I do agree with you that 220 riders is going to be interested to run on
a course; I hope the course is at least a 10 minute lap for them.

I guess if there are 220 riders in the B race, the entry fee was not
too much of a deterrent.

Maybe there should be a sliding scale - $40 for the A/elites, $100 for
the Bs, $40 for the Cs. On the other hand that might encourage
Bs to get in over their head in the A race, or sandbag the Cs.

The fact is, nationals is not like a local race, more people will
be traveling to it. That means the entry fee is small compared
to all your other costs, even if you crash on somebody's floor.
It's an obvious hit to your wallet so people will complain about
it more than all the other costs, but it's not that significant
overall.

The amount of work it takes to put on even a small local race
is not easy to appreciate until you help out with one.

Ben

Quoted message said:

and it was always interesting that there was a beer tent/wagon. even
at a 10am Sunday morning crit.

Dumbass -

Alcohol sales are a great way to raise cash $$$$.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Quoted message said:

Just trying to point out how different the overall
environment is. For race organizers too I imagine. That they are able
to put on good races for minimal entry fees should say something. It
was like that in Italy also. And I suspect in other EU countries.

dumbass,

i'd say the fee situation is a reflection of the participation and not
the other way around. in my experience changing the fee doesn't really
affect the participation. even if fees in north america were reduced to
$0 the participation numbers and pattern would stay about the same.

Quoted message said:

One might ask ... is that simply a reflection of the sport being more
accepted and mainstream ... or is that in part how it got to be more
accepted and popular?

a good thing to consider. i think the popularity has more to do with
club (moral) support: being able to get to events, having people to
ride with and local events that make the sport visible thereby
attracting more riders.

of course as a rider or a parent if you spend a $1000 a year vs. $100 a
year on fees it affects you in some way, but i don't thnk that's the
primary consideration if someone's trying to decide if they are going
to race bikes or not.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Quoted message said:

and it was always interesting that there was a beer tent/wagon. even
at a 10am Sunday morning crit.

Dumbass -

Alcohol sales are a great way to raise cash $$$$.

dumbass,

it worked for oleg tinkov.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Donald Munro said:

Quoted message said:

and it was always interesting that there was a beer tent/wagon. even
at a 10am Sunday morning crit.

Ryan is about to start taking German lessons.

Zwei bieren, bitte. Danke.

My thoughts on the cost structure run to three things:

1) beer tent
2) sponsorship money
3) liability insurance costs

Locally, virtually every road race I know of is a club-run fundraiser,
either for internal projects or a chosen charity. Fees are $5 (weekly
crit) to $50 (1/2/pro events like the Tour de Gastown).

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and it was always interesting that there was a beer tent/wagon. even
at a 10am Sunday morning crit.

Donald Munro said:

Quoted message said:

Ryan is about to start taking German lessons.

Ryan Cousineau said:

Zwei bieren, bitte. Danke.

My thoughts on the cost structure

Time to give some thought to the cost structure of the main enterprise.
When are the LIVE<B>DRUNK</B> (see I'm being nice and shouting)
equivalents of the below coming out and what will be on them ?:

http://www.store-laf.org/cycling.html