Critique my routine, please

"Rankin Johnson IV" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For the last year or so, I've been doing a full-body routine 3x/week,
with cardio at the same time. I've lost 80+ pounds, but I still have
20+ to go. I don't know my bodyfat percentage, but I'm 6' or a little
more, 195-200 lbs, 33 y.o. I shoot for 2000 calories a day, making it
on occasion, getting enough protein, and avoiding empty carbs and
other junk.

Until recently, my routine was squats, deadlift, shoulder press,
bench, bent-over row, assisted pullups, with a vague weekly
periodization. I've switched to Mistress Krista's intermediate 3-day
full body. I run about two miles to the gym, lift, and run home.

My strength gains have slowed to a crawl. I suspect that's because I'm
not eating enough; losing weight is my priority. I suppose it might be
overtraining, and I assume that running on my lifting days isn't the
best way to build strength. My time is very limited, though, so I may
be stuck with that.

Because I'm mostly trying to lose weight, and I'm past my beginner's
gains, lifting is primarily to avoid losing muscle while I'm eating
below maintenence, right? In that case, am I doing more lifting than I
need? I've thought about just lifting 2x a week, and doing cardio with
the remaining time. I'm not all that happy with my gym, so I'm using a
pay-per-entry pass rather than a monthly membership while I look for
someplace new. As a result, it costs me less money if I go fewer
times.

Any thoughts? Will 2x a week be enough to minimize muscle loss until
I'm at a healthy weight? Would I be better off with a split routine
rather than full-body, or some sort of circuit training? Is there some
way to verify that my lack of strength gains is the result of cutting
calories, rather than something I'm doing wrong and can fix?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

/s/ Rankin Johnson

You don't mention anything about cycling. Once you're finished with
beginner gains, and it sounds like you are, you need to back off
periodically. You can't go forward forever without a rest. The
simplest formula is to take every 4th week and cut back on your workouts
by 50%. I like to use these weeks to do other stuff, e.g., run or take
an extra swim. The idea is that you start the next four-week cycle off
with relatively light weights, increase for 3 weeks to hopefully surpass
your old maxes, then back off yet again.

The concept can and should be expanded, e.g., maybe train hardest in the
Spring and Fall and take it easy in the summer, or pick one season per
year to peak for and build your schedule around that - this is common in
competitive athletes.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Your routine sux!

Thanks for your response.

I take it, then, that tweaking my workout as you suggest would result in
making progress even while I'm eating below maintenence and losing weight?
Should my calorie intake be affected by where I am in the cycle, or should I
cycle the amount of cardio either directly or inversely with weightlifting
intensity?

/s/ Rankin Johnson

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You don't mention anything about cycling. Once you're finished with
beginner gains, and it sounds like you are, you need to back off
periodically. You can't go forward forever without a rest. The simplest
formula is to take every 4th week and cut back on your workouts by 50%. I
like to use these weeks to do other stuff, e.g., run or take an extra
swim. The idea is that you start the next four-week cycle off with
relatively light weights, increase for 3 weeks to hopefully surpass your
old maxes, then back off yet again.

The concept can and should be expanded, e.g., maybe train hardest in the
Spring and Fall and take it easy in the summer, or pick one season per
year to peak for and build your schedule around that - this is common in
competitive athletes.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

You might want to vary the intensity of the routine. Don't always go for
broke for each workout. Maybe one week adjust the sets and repetitions,
then the next go back to what you were doing. Variety is the spice of life.
A week's rest to do cardio might do wonders as well. The body does need
rest every so often.

"Rankin Johnson IV" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For the last year or so, I've been doing a full-body routine 3x/week, with
cardio at the same time. I've lost 80+ pounds, but I still have 20+ to go.

I

Quoted message said:

don't know my bodyfat percentage, but I'm 6' or a little more, 195-200

lbs,

Quoted message said:

33 y.o. I shoot for 2000 calories a day, making it on occasion, getting
enough protein, and avoiding empty carbs and other junk.

Until recently, my routine was squats, deadlift, shoulder press, bench,
bent-over row, assisted pullups, with a vague weekly periodization. I've
switched to Mistress Krista's intermediate 3-day full body. I run about

two

Quoted message said:

miles to the gym, lift, and run home.

My strength gains have slowed to a crawl. I suspect that's because I'm not
eating enough; losing weight is my priority. I suppose it might be
overtraining, and I assume that running on my lifting days isn't the best
way to build strength. My time is very limited, though, so I may be stuck
with that.

Because I'm mostly trying to lose weight, and I'm past my beginner's

gains,

Quoted message said:

lifting is primarily to avoid losing muscle while I'm eating below
maintenence, right? In that case, am I doing more lifting than I need?

I've

Quoted message said:

thought about just lifting 2x a week, and doing cardio with the remaining
time. I'm not all that happy with my gym, so I'm using a pay-per-entry

pass

Quoted message said:

rather than a monthly membership while I look for someplace new. As a
result, it costs me less money if I go fewer times.

Any thoughts? Will 2x a week be enough to minimize muscle loss until I'm

at

Quoted message said:

a healthy weight? Would I be better off with a split routine rather than
full-body, or some sort of circuit training? Is there some way to verify
that my lack of strength gains is the result of cutting calories, rather
than something I'm doing wrong and can fix?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

/s/ Rankin Johnson

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:59:27 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"Rankin Johnson IV" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For the last year or so, I've been doing a full-body routine 3x/week,
with cardio at the same time. I've lost 80+ pounds, but I still have
20+ to go. I don't know my bodyfat percentage, but I'm 6' or a little
more, 195-200 lbs, 33 y.o. I shoot for 2000 calories a day, making it
on occasion, getting enough protein, and avoiding empty carbs and
other junk.

Until recently, my routine was squats, deadlift, shoulder press,
bench, bent-over row, assisted pullups, with a vague weekly
periodization. I've switched to Mistress Krista's intermediate 3-day
full body. I run about two miles to the gym, lift, and run home.

My strength gains have slowed to a crawl. I suspect that's because I'm
not eating enough; losing weight is my priority. I suppose it might be
overtraining, and I assume that running on my lifting days isn't the
best way to build strength. My time is very limited, though, so I may
be stuck with that.

Because I'm mostly trying to lose weight, and I'm past my beginner's
gains, lifting is primarily to avoid losing muscle while I'm eating
below maintenence, right? In that case, am I doing more lifting than I
need? I've thought about just lifting 2x a week, and doing cardio with
the remaining time. I'm not all that happy with my gym, so I'm using a
pay-per-entry pass rather than a monthly membership while I look for
someplace new. As a result, it costs me less money if I go fewer
times.

Any thoughts? Will 2x a week be enough to minimize muscle loss until
I'm at a healthy weight? Would I be better off with a split routine
rather than full-body, or some sort of circuit training? Is there some
way to verify that my lack of strength gains is the result of cutting
calories, rather than something I'm doing wrong and can fix?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

/s/ Rankin Johnson

You don't mention anything about cycling. Once you're finished with
beginner gains, and it sounds like you are, you need to back off
periodically. You can't go forward forever without a rest. The
simplest formula is to take every 4th week and cut back on your workouts
by 50%. I like to use these weeks to do other stuff, e.g., run or take
an extra swim. The idea is that you start the next four-week cycle off
with relatively light weights, increase for 3 weeks to hopefully surpass
your old maxes, then back off yet again.

The concept can and should be expanded, e.g., maybe train hardest in the
Spring and Fall and take it easy in the summer, or pick one season per
year to peak for and build your schedule around that - this is common in
competitive athletes.

Who does a 4 week cycle? The only ones doing something similar to
that are "waving" their workouts and I'll bet their light week has
more volume/intensity than the original poster. If anything, I'd back
off the cardio every fourth week. Most lifting cycles are 8-16 weeks
long with 12-16 being the norm.

Hell, I haven't taken any time off this year except for maybe 3 or 4
workouts spread out since late last year. Of course, I have different
goals than the OP and will sometimes consume 2000 calories in one
sitting:-) But still, there is NO benefit to not lifting every 4
weeks. Your strength will stagnate.

"Rankin Johnson IV" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your response.

I take it, then, that tweaking my workout as you suggest would result
in making progress even while I'm eating below maintenence and losing
weight? Should my calorie intake be affected by where I am in the
cycle, or should I cycle the amount of cardio either directly or
inversely with weightlifting intensity?

The key to long-term progress is periodically backing off - more than
that, I can't predict for you. Your description in your first message
sounds like classic overtraining, so I'm making a very simple
suggestion - give yourself a break. I can't give you more specifics
than that because if I told you I could predict what was right for you,
I'd be lying. Experiment with what feels good.

John, Jack Reape is a very accomplished lifter. In

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/111/

he says, "In practice, these three weeks of going hard followed by a
back-off week is the safest and most predictable, as very few people can
subjectively or objectively tell if they are getting behind the recovery
curve"

Jack is a big fan of the book "Consistent Winning" and I think you'll
find many people subscribe to the concept of cycling their lifting
routines, whether the goal is strength, size, or some combination
thereof.

A back-off week doesn't mean, as you said, "no lifting". It typically
means something along the lines of 50% of your usual volume, 80% of your
usual intensity, and a few odd things you don't usually do thrown in for
fun. Please don't take those numbers as gospel - they're just a shot in
the dark. During back-off weeks, I often have a couple of pretty normal
lifting days, but I surround those with off days - since I usually lift
6-7 days per week, this is a significant reduction in volume and total
intensity for me. For someone else's schedule, a back-off week would
look a lot different.

In answer to the OP's question, I think it's unlikely to continue to
gain size and strength while losing weight, but at least you can try to
maintain most of your strength and size. Your calorie intake is
something you'll have to feel out. I'd start by keeping total calories
the same, get on the scale every day, check your bodyfat periodically,
see how it goes, and adjust as necessary. If you regularly do a good
amount of cardio, I'd cut back on that, too. If you only do a little,
doing a little more during back-off week might be OK.

Jack's politics make our resident right-wing Republicans here look like
a bleeding heart liberals, but he knows what he's talking about when it
comes to training.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

/s/ Rankin Johnson

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You don't mention anything about cycling. Once you're finished with
beginner gains, and it sounds like you are, you need to back off
periodically. You can't go forward forever without a rest. The
simplest formula is to take every 4th week and cut back on your
workouts by 50%. I like to use these weeks to do other stuff, e.g.,
run or take an extra swim. The idea is that you start the next
four-week cycle off with relatively light weights, increase for 3
weeks to hopefully surpass your old maxes, then back off yet again.

The concept can and should be expanded, e.g., maybe train hardest in
the Spring and Fall and take it easy in the summer, or pick one
season per year to peak for and build your schedule around that -
this is common in competitive athletes.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 23:00:09 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"Rankin Johnson IV" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for your response.

I take it, then, that tweaking my workout as you suggest would result
in making progress even while I'm eating below maintenence and losing
weight? Should my calorie intake be affected by where I am in the
cycle, or should I cycle the amount of cardio either directly or
inversely with weightlifting intensity?

The key to long-term progress is periodically backing off - more than
that, I can't predict for you. Your description in your first message
sounds like classic overtraining, so I'm making a very simple
suggestion - give yourself a break. I can't give you more specifics
than that because if I told you I could predict what was right for you,
I'd be lying. Experiment with what feels good.

John, Jack Reape is a very accomplished lifter. In

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/111/

he says, "In practice, these three weeks of going hard followed by a
back-off week is the safest and most predictable, as very few people can
subjectively or objectively tell if they are getting behind the recovery
curve"

Again, he talks about going "hard" followed by a back-off week. I
guarantee you the OP isn't training that way. Reape is talking about
wave training, not traditional cycling at all.

Quoted message said:

Jack is a big fan of the book "Consistent Winning" and I think you'll
find many people subscribe to the concept of cycling their lifting
routines, whether the goal is strength, size, or some combination
thereof.

Waving, not cycling.

Quoted message said:

A back-off week doesn't mean, as you said, "no lifting". It typically
means something along the lines of 50% of your usual volume, 80% of your
usual intensity, and a few odd things you don't usually do thrown in for
fun. Please don't take those numbers as gospel - they're just a shot in
the dark. During back-off weeks, I often have a couple of pretty normal
lifting days, but I surround those with off days - since I usually lift
6-7 days per week, this is a significant reduction in volume and total
intensity for me. For someone else's schedule, a back-off week would
look a lot different.

In answer to the OP's question, I think it's unlikely to continue to
gain size and strength while losing weight, but at least you can try to
maintain most of your strength and size. Your calorie intake is
something you'll have to feel out. I'd start by keeping total calories
the same, get on the scale every day, check your bodyfat periodically,
see how it goes, and adjust as necessary. If you regularly do a good
amount of cardio, I'd cut back on that, too. If you only do a little,
doing a little more during back-off week might be OK.

Jack's politics make our resident right-wing Republicans here look like
a bleeding heart liberals, but he knows what he's talking about when it
comes to training.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

/s/ Rankin Johnson

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You don't mention anything about cycling. Once you're finished with
beginner gains, and it sounds like you are, you need to back off
periodically. You can't go forward forever without a rest. The
simplest formula is to take every 4th week and cut back on your
workouts by 50%. I like to use these weeks to do other stuff, e.g.,
run or take an extra swim. The idea is that you start the next
four-week cycle off with relatively light weights, increase for 3
weeks to hopefully surpass your old maxes, then back off yet again.

The concept can and should be expanded, e.g., maybe train hardest in
the Spring and Fall and take it easy in the summer, or pick one
season per year to peak for and build your schedule around that -
this is common in competitive athletes.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Rankin Johnson IV said:

For the last year or so, I've been doing a full-body routine 3x/week, with
cardio at the same time. I've lost 80+ pounds, but I still have 20+ to go. I
don't know my bodyfat percentage, but I'm 6' or a little more, 195-200 lbs,
33 y.o. I shoot for 2000 calories a day, making it on occasion, getting
enough protein, and avoiding empty carbs and other junk.

Until recently, my routine was squats, deadlift, shoulder press, bench,
bent-over row, assisted pullups, with a vague weekly periodization. I've
switched to Mistress Krista's intermediate 3-day full body. I run about two
miles to the gym, lift, and run home.

My strength gains have slowed to a crawl. I suspect that's because I'm not
eating enough; losing weight is my priority. I suppose it might be
overtraining, and I assume that running on my lifting days isn't the best
way to build strength. My time is very limited, though, so I may be stuck
with that.

Because I'm mostly trying to lose weight, and I'm past my beginner's gains,
lifting is primarily to avoid losing muscle while I'm eating below
maintenence, right? In that case, am I doing more lifting than I need? I've
thought about just lifting 2x a week, and doing cardio with the remaining
time. I'm not all that happy with my gym, so I'm using a pay-per-entry pass
rather than a monthly membership while I look for someplace new. As a
result, it costs me less money if I go fewer times.

Any thoughts? Will 2x a week be enough to minimize muscle loss until I'm at
a healthy weight? Would I be better off with a split routine rather than
full-body, or some sort of circuit training? Is there some way to verify
that my lack of strength gains is the result of cutting calories, rather
than something I'm doing wrong and can fix?

Great job on your fat loss! 80+ lbs in a year is impressive. You've
managed to do what I've been struggling to achieve for some time now.

As for the strength plateau, I think you're right. You are past the
beginner honeymoon stage and you will not be able to add much more
muscle while eating a hypocaloric diet. Whether you're doing more
lifting than needed? I would think not, since you are trying to lose
more fat and lifting's post-exercise caloric requirements will continue
to help that goal while helping to maintain muscle mass at the same
time.

Many on this forum talk about hitting weight loss plateaus when they go
to more aerobics exercise and less lifting. I would keep that in mind,
and perhaps even reduce your aerobics, (do you have to run to the gym?)
crank up your lifting intensity a bit, and stay hypocaloric. You may
find the fat goes away more quickly than before, and you'll have enough
energy to lift since you are reducing the aerobics.

That may sound backwards to you, but lifting heavy weights has been
proven to burn a lot of calories very efficiently. While the running
burns some too, it may also be making you more hungry and tired. Hey,
the last 20 lbs of a 100 lb weight loss won't be as easy as the first
20, no matter what you do. Stick with it.

- bc

John Hanson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:59:27 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"Rankin Johnson IV" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

For the last year or so, I've been doing a full-body routine 3x/week,
with cardio at the same time. I've lost 80+ pounds, but I still have
20+ to go. I don't know my bodyfat percentage, but I'm 6' or a little
more, 195-200 lbs, 33 y.o. I shoot for 2000 calories a day, making it
on occasion, getting enough protein, and avoiding empty carbs and
other junk.

Until recently, my routine was squats, deadlift, shoulder press,
bench, bent-over row, assisted pullups, with a vague weekly
periodization. I've switched to Mistress Krista's intermediate 3-day
full body. I run about two miles to the gym, lift, and run home.

My strength gains have slowed to a crawl. I suspect that's because

I'm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not eating enough; losing weight is my priority. I suppose it might

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

overtraining, and I assume that running on my lifting days isn't the
best way to build strength. My time is very limited, though, so I may
be stuck with that.

Because I'm mostly trying to lose weight, and I'm past my beginner's
gains, lifting is primarily to avoid losing muscle while I'm eating
below maintenence, right? In that case, am I doing more lifting than

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

need? I've thought about just lifting 2x a week, and doing cardio

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the remaining time. I'm not all that happy with my gym, so I'm using

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pay-per-entry pass rather than a monthly membership while I look for
someplace new. As a result, it costs me less money if I go fewer
times.

Any thoughts? Will 2x a week be enough to minimize muscle loss until
I'm at a healthy weight? Would I be better off with a split routine
rather than full-body, or some sort of circuit training? Is there

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

way to verify that my lack of strength gains is the result of cutting
calories, rather than something I'm doing wrong and can fix?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

/s/ Rankin Johnson

You don't mention anything about cycling. Once you're finished with
beginner gains, and it sounds like you are, you need to back off
periodically. You can't go forward forever without a rest. The
simplest formula is to take every 4th week and cut back on your

workouts

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

by 50%. I like to use these weeks to do other stuff, e.g., run or take
an extra swim. The idea is that you start the next four-week cycle off
with relatively light weights, increase for 3 weeks to hopefully

surpass

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your old maxes, then back off yet again.

The concept can and should be expanded, e.g., maybe train hardest in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Spring and Fall and take it easy in the summer, or pick one season per
year to peak for and build your schedule around that - this is common

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

competitive athletes.

Who does a 4 week cycle? The only ones doing something similar to
that are "waving" their workouts and I'll bet their light week has
more volume/intensity than the original poster. If anything, I'd back
off the cardio every fourth week. Most lifting cycles are 8-16 weeks
long with 12-16 being the norm.

Hell, I haven't taken any time off this year except for maybe 3 or 4
workouts spread out since late last year. Of course, I have different
goals than the OP and will sometimes consume 2000 calories in one
sitting:-) But still, there is NO benefit to not lifting every 4
weeks. Your strength will stagnate.

Weren't Lyle and Hobman tossing this around? Lyle, IIRC, was arguing for
backing off every 4th week and Hobman was talking about Russian-style
week-by-week varying of intensity and volume.

Hugh

--
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will attend no other.

In article <[email hidden]>, Hugh Beyer

Quoted message said:

John Hanson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:59:27 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"Rankin Johnson IV" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...
> For the last year or so, I've been doing a full-body routine 3x/week,
> with cardio at the same time. I've lost 80+ pounds, but I still have
> 20+ to go. I don't know my bodyfat percentage, but I'm 6' or a little
> more, 195-200 lbs, 33 y.o. I shoot for 2000 calories a day, making it
> on occasion, getting enough protein, and avoiding empty carbs and
> other junk.
>
> Until recently, my routine was squats, deadlift, shoulder press,
> bench, bent-over row, assisted pullups, with a vague weekly
> periodization. I've switched to Mistress Krista's intermediate 3-day
> full body. I run about two miles to the gym, lift, and run home.
>
> My strength gains have slowed to a crawl. I suspect that's because

I'm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> not eating enough; losing weight is my priority. I suppose it might

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> overtraining, and I assume that running on my lifting days isn't the
> best way to build strength. My time is very limited, though, so I may
> be stuck with that.
>
> Because I'm mostly trying to lose weight, and I'm past my beginner's
> gains, lifting is primarily to avoid losing muscle while I'm eating
> below maintenence, right? In that case, am I doing more lifting than

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> need? I've thought about just lifting 2x a week, and doing cardio

with

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> the remaining time. I'm not all that happy with my gym, so I'm using

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> pay-per-entry pass rather than a monthly membership while I look for
> someplace new. As a result, it costs me less money if I go fewer
> times.
>
> Any thoughts? Will 2x a week be enough to minimize muscle loss until
> I'm at a healthy weight? Would I be better off with a split routine
> rather than full-body, or some sort of circuit training? Is there

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> way to verify that my lack of strength gains is the result of cutting
> calories, rather than something I'm doing wrong and can fix?
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice.
>
> /s/ Rankin Johnson

You don't mention anything about cycling. Once you're finished with
beginner gains, and it sounds like you are, you need to back off
periodically. You can't go forward forever without a rest. The
simplest formula is to take every 4th week and cut back on your

workouts

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

by 50%. I like to use these weeks to do other stuff, e.g., run or take
an extra swim. The idea is that you start the next four-week cycle off
with relatively light weights, increase for 3 weeks to hopefully

surpass

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your old maxes, then back off yet again.

The concept can and should be expanded, e.g., maybe train hardest in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Spring and Fall and take it easy in the summer, or pick one season per
year to peak for and build your schedule around that - this is common

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

competitive athletes.

Who does a 4 week cycle? The only ones doing something similar to
that are "waving" their workouts and I'll bet their light week has
more volume/intensity than the original poster. If anything, I'd back
off the cardio every fourth week. Most lifting cycles are 8-16 weeks
long with 12-16 being the norm.

Hell, I haven't taken any time off this year except for maybe 3 or 4
workouts spread out since late last year. Of course, I have different
goals than the OP and will sometimes consume 2000 calories in one
sitting:-) But still, there is NO benefit to not lifting every 4
weeks. Your strength will stagnate.

Weren't Lyle and Hobman tossing this around? Lyle, IIRC, was arguing for
backing off every 4th week and Hobman was talking about Russian-style
week-by-week varying of intensity and volume.

Which is much the same thing. Chernyak wrote a whole book on this, which
basically suggest a wave program of two weeks of 'average' training,
followed by a week of 'stressed' training followed by a deload week. Lyle
was suggesting deloading every third or fourth week.

Typically the old Soviet system would set up an arbitrary system of
designating overall load (an example is total poundage lifted per week).
So say on average you were lifting 400 tonnes per week. On a stressed week
you'd lift 500 tonnes. On the deload week around 275 tonnes. Then you may
add some tonnage for the next cycle - so the average may go up to 405
tonnes.

This is greatly simplified since they waved both overall volume and
average intenstity, with overall volume going down in the competition
period and average intensity going up.

Tommy Kono was doing this sort of thing way back in the 50's and it was
pretty common. The Russians took a lot of weightlifting ideas from Kono,
Hepburn and Anderson in the 50's. All three lifters recognized you could
only go hard for so long and then you have to back off. Kono made the very
interesting observation in his book that as he aged he needed more
frequent backoff weeks. Or put another way - he couldn't train really hard
as often. Of course he was also very highly adapted by that point and you
could make the argument as you near genetic limits and training limits you
have to be far more careful about waving training.

I suspect John would agree with this. As you get stronger in the
powerlifts you have to be far more careful about how often you go hard.

--
Keith

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:01:58 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Hugh Beyer

Quoted message said:

John Hanson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:59:27 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

>"Rankin Johnson IV" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

>news:[email hidden]...
>> For the last year or so, I've been doing a full-body routine 3x/week,
>> with cardio at the same time. I've lost 80+ pounds, but I still have
>> 20+ to go. I don't know my bodyfat percentage, but I'm 6' or a little
>> more, 195-200 lbs, 33 y.o. I shoot for 2000 calories a day, making it
>> on occasion, getting enough protein, and avoiding empty carbs and
>> other junk.
>>
>> Until recently, my routine was squats, deadlift, shoulder press,
>> bench, bent-over row, assisted pullups, with a vague weekly
>> periodization. I've switched to Mistress Krista's intermediate 3-day
>> full body. I run about two miles to the gym, lift, and run home.
>>
>> My strength gains have slowed to a crawl. I suspect that's because

I'm

Quoted message said:

>> not eating enough; losing weight is my priority. I suppose it might

be

Quoted message said:

>> overtraining, and I assume that running on my lifting days isn't the
>> best way to build strength. My time is very limited, though, so I may
>> be stuck with that.
>>
>> Because I'm mostly trying to lose weight, and I'm past my beginner's
>> gains, lifting is primarily to avoid losing muscle while I'm eating
>> below maintenence, right? In that case, am I doing more lifting than

I

Quoted message said:

>> need? I've thought about just lifting 2x a week, and doing cardio

with

Quoted message said:

>> the remaining time. I'm not all that happy with my gym, so I'm using

a

Quoted message said:

>> pay-per-entry pass rather than a monthly membership while I look for
>> someplace new. As a result, it costs me less money if I go fewer
>> times.
>>
>> Any thoughts? Will 2x a week be enough to minimize muscle loss until
>> I'm at a healthy weight? Would I be better off with a split routine
>> rather than full-body, or some sort of circuit training? Is there

some

Quoted message said:

>> way to verify that my lack of strength gains is the result of cutting
>> calories, rather than something I'm doing wrong and can fix?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any advice.
>>
>> /s/ Rankin Johnson
>
>You don't mention anything about cycling. Once you're finished with
>beginner gains, and it sounds like you are, you need to back off
>periodically. You can't go forward forever without a rest. The
>simplest formula is to take every 4th week and cut back on your

workouts

Quoted message said:

>by 50%. I like to use these weeks to do other stuff, e.g., run or take
>an extra swim. The idea is that you start the next four-week cycle off
>with relatively light weights, increase for 3 weeks to hopefully

surpass

Quoted message said:

>your old maxes, then back off yet again.
>
>The concept can and should be expanded, e.g., maybe train hardest in

the

Quoted message said:

>Spring and Fall and take it easy in the summer, or pick one season per
>year to peak for and build your schedule around that - this is common

in

Quoted message said:

>competitive athletes.
>
Who does a 4 week cycle? The only ones doing something similar to
that are "waving" their workouts and I'll bet their light week has
more volume/intensity than the original poster. If anything, I'd back
off the cardio every fourth week. Most lifting cycles are 8-16 weeks
long with 12-16 being the norm.

Hell, I haven't taken any time off this year except for maybe 3 or 4
workouts spread out since late last year. Of course, I have different
goals than the OP and will sometimes consume 2000 calories in one
sitting:-) But still, there is NO benefit to not lifting every 4
weeks. Your strength will stagnate.

Weren't Lyle and Hobman tossing this around? Lyle, IIRC, was arguing for
backing off every 4th week and Hobman was talking about Russian-style
week-by-week varying of intensity and volume.

Which is much the same thing. Chernyak wrote a whole book on this, which
basically suggest a wave program of two weeks of 'average' training,
followed by a week of 'stressed' training followed by a deload week. Lyle
was suggesting deloading every third or fourth week.

Typically the old Soviet system would set up an arbitrary system of
designating overall load (an example is total poundage lifted per week).
So say on average you were lifting 400 tonnes per week. On a stressed week
you'd lift 500 tonnes. On the deload week around 275 tonnes. Then you may
add some tonnage for the next cycle - so the average may go up to 405
tonnes.

This is greatly simplified since they waved both overall volume and
average intenstity, with overall volume going down in the competition
period and average intensity going up.

Tommy Kono was doing this sort of thing way back in the 50's and it was
pretty common. The Russians took a lot of weightlifting ideas from Kono,
Hepburn and Anderson in the 50's. All three lifters recognized you could
only go hard for so long and then you have to back off. Kono made the very
interesting observation in his book that as he aged he needed more
frequent backoff weeks. Or put another way - he couldn't train really hard
as often. Of course he was also very highly adapted by that point and you
could make the argument as you near genetic limits and training limits you
have to be far more careful about waving training.

I suspect John would agree with this. As you get stronger in the
powerlifts you have to be far more careful about how often you go hard.

Definitely! Last time I did a 4 week wave loading cycle, I got sick.
I was also cutting weight at the time which, in hindsight, I'd say was
a big NONO. I felt great during the stress week though.

My point to Steve is there is a big difference between a traditional
progressive overload cycle and a wave loading cycle. I wouldn't even
suggest to someone who is in the midst of dropping 80-100 pounds to
try a wave loading cycle nor do I believe that the OP is doing
anything remotely close to one.

Also, I wouldn't have a fairly new trainee do anything but some sort
of traditional progressive overload cycle...perhaps an HST workout
skipping the negatives at the end. When I started training again
nearly 5 years ago, it was my joints that suffered and I'm sure
negatives would have only aggravated them more.

Rankin Johnson IV said:

For the last year or so, I've been doing a full-body routine 3x/week, with
cardio at the same time. I've lost 80+ pounds, but I still have 20+ to go. I
don't know my bodyfat percentage, but I'm 6' or a little more, 195-200 lbs,
33 y.o. I shoot for 2000 calories a day, making it on occasion, getting
enough protein, and avoiding empty carbs and other junk.

Until recently, my routine was squats, deadlift, shoulder press, bench,
bent-over row, assisted pullups, with a vague weekly periodization. I've
switched to Mistress Krista's intermediate 3-day full body. I run about two
miles to the gym, lift, and run home.

Before I even get into the specifics of your routine, I would like to
ask whether or not you've had any downtime in the past year or have
gone off your diet at all. If you have been training almost
continuously for the past year and have never really cheated on your
diet, a full week of doing nothing and pigging out will do miracles.
I'm not kidding either. It will help you recover if in fact you are
overtrained, which if you have been training nonstop for a year you
are, and the week of high calorie eating will fire your metabolism
back up.

As far as converting to a split or just doing 2 full body workouts, I
would probably just do the 2 full body workouts. When you are on a
calorie deprived diet it can be tough to recover from a more
complicated split routine, especially if you don't have a couple years
of lifting experience behind you. It sounds like you want to
specifically lose more fat and aren't concerned about "gaining"
muscle, just maintaining your lean mass. When I recently got back
into training a couple months ago I did something very similar: two
full body workouts a week and a couple days of cardio during the same
week. It was enough to get me back into weight training and even gain
some muscle while just getting rid of my beer belly. It worked out
well because I found I could recover just well enough on a low calorie
diet for the weight workouts when working out twice a week. After I
lose some more bodyfat I'm going right back into a bodybuilding
program with the goal of maintaining my bodyfat and slowly gaining
lean mass.

Again though, if its been a while since you have taken a week off, do
so. A friend of mind who was trying to lose weight hit a major
plateau after dieting for about 12 weeks straight. I told him to pig
out for a week and return to his program. He was shocked at how he
started losing bodyfat again after the cheat week. The body does not
want to change, it will adapt, and you have to constantly fool it into
doing what you want it to do.

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:01:58 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Hugh
Beyer

Quoted message said:

John Hanson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:59:27 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
>
>>"Rankin Johnson IV" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>> For the last year or so, I've been doing a full-body routine
>>> 3x/week,
>>> with cardio at the same time. I've lost 80+ pounds, but I still
>>> have
>>> 20+ to go. I don't know my bodyfat percentage, but I'm 6' or a
>>> little
>>> more, 195-200 lbs, 33 y.o. I shoot for 2000 calories a day,
>>> making it
>>> on occasion, getting enough protein, and avoiding empty carbs
>>> and
>>> other junk.
>>>
>>> Until recently, my routine was squats, deadlift, shoulder press,
>>> bench, bent-over row, assisted pullups, with a vague weekly
>>> periodization. I've switched to Mistress Krista's intermediate
>>> 3-day
>>> full body. I run about two miles to the gym, lift, and run home.
>>>
>>> My strength gains have slowed to a crawl. I suspect that's
>>> because
I'm
>>> not eating enough; losing weight is my priority. I suppose it
>>> might
be
>>> overtraining, and I assume that running on my lifting days isn't
>>> the
>>> best way to build strength. My time is very limited, though, so
>>> I may
>>> be stuck with that.
>>>
>>> Because I'm mostly trying to lose weight, and I'm past my
>>> beginner's
>>> gains, lifting is primarily to avoid losing muscle while I'm
>>> eating
>>> below maintenence, right? In that case, am I doing more lifting
>>> than
I
>>> need? I've thought about just lifting 2x a week, and doing
>>> cardio
with
>>> the remaining time. I'm not all that happy with my gym, so I'm
>>> using
a
>>> pay-per-entry pass rather than a monthly membership while I look
>>> for
>>> someplace new. As a result, it costs me less money if I go fewer
>>> times.
>>>
>>> Any thoughts? Will 2x a week be enough to minimize muscle loss
>>> until
>>> I'm at a healthy weight? Would I be better off with a split
>>> routine
>>> rather than full-body, or some sort of circuit training? Is
>>> there
some
>>> way to verify that my lack of strength gains is the result of
>>> cutting
>>> calories, rather than something I'm doing wrong and can fix?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for any advice.
>>>
>>> /s/ Rankin Johnson
>>
>>You don't mention anything about cycling. Once you're finished
>>with
>>beginner gains, and it sounds like you are, you need to back off
>>periodically. You can't go forward forever without a rest. The
>>simplest formula is to take every 4th week and cut back on your
workouts
>>by 50%. I like to use these weeks to do other stuff, e.g., run or
>>take
>>an extra swim. The idea is that you start the next four-week
>>cycle off
>>with relatively light weights, increase for 3 weeks to hopefully
surpass
>>your old maxes, then back off yet again.
>>
>>The concept can and should be expanded, e.g., maybe train hardest
>>in
the
>>Spring and Fall and take it easy in the summer, or pick one season
>>per
>>year to peak for and build your schedule around that - this is
>>common
in
>>competitive athletes.
>>
> Who does a 4 week cycle? The only ones doing something similar to
> that are "waving" their workouts and I'll bet their light week has
> more volume/intensity than the original poster. If anything, I'd
> back
> off the cardio every fourth week. Most lifting cycles are 8-16
> weeks
> long with 12-16 being the norm.
>
> Hell, I haven't taken any time off this year except for maybe 3 or
> 4
> workouts spread out since late last year. Of course, I have
> different
> goals than the OP and will sometimes consume 2000 calories in one
> sitting:-) But still, there is NO benefit to not lifting every 4
> weeks. Your strength will stagnate.
>

Weren't Lyle and Hobman tossing this around? Lyle, IIRC, was arguing
for
backing off every 4th week and Hobman was talking about
Russian-style
week-by-week varying of intensity and volume.

Which is much the same thing. Chernyak wrote a whole book on this,
which
basically suggest a wave program of two weeks of 'average' training,
followed by a week of 'stressed' training followed by a deload week.
Lyle
was suggesting deloading every third or fourth week.

Typically the old Soviet system would set up an arbitrary system of
designating overall load (an example is total poundage lifted per
week).
So say on average you were lifting 400 tonnes per week. On a stressed
week
you'd lift 500 tonnes. On the deload week around 275 tonnes. Then you
may
add some tonnage for the next cycle - so the average may go up to 405
tonnes.

This is greatly simplified since they waved both overall volume and
average intenstity, with overall volume going down in the competition
period and average intensity going up.

Tommy Kono was doing this sort of thing way back in the 50's and it
was
pretty common. The Russians took a lot of weightlifting ideas from
Kono,
Hepburn and Anderson in the 50's. All three lifters recognized you
could
only go hard for so long and then you have to back off. Kono made the
very
interesting observation in his book that as he aged he needed more
frequent backoff weeks. Or put another way - he couldn't train really
hard
as often. Of course he was also very highly adapted by that point and
you
could make the argument as you near genetic limits and training limits
you
have to be far more careful about waving training.

I suspect John would agree with this. As you get stronger in the
powerlifts you have to be far more careful about how often you go
hard.

Definitely! Last time I did a 4 week wave loading cycle, I got sick.
I was also cutting weight at the time which, in hindsight, I'd say was
a big NONO. I felt great during the stress week though.

My point to Steve is there is a big difference between a traditional
progressive overload cycle and a wave loading cycle. I wouldn't even
suggest to someone who is in the midst of dropping 80-100 pounds to
try a wave loading cycle nor do I believe that the OP is doing
anything remotely close to one.

Also, I wouldn't have a fairly new trainee do anything but some sort
of traditional progressive overload cycle...perhaps an HST workout
skipping the negatives at the end. When I started training again
nearly 5 years ago, it was my joints that suffered and I'm sure
negatives would have only aggravated them more.

John, exactly what do you mean by "traditional progressive overload
cycle?" All I'm suggesting is that he cut back from time to time, and
it sounds like you're saying, although I can't imagine you are, that he
should just keep increasing the weight until, well, until I don't know
what.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:49:19 -0400, "Steve Freides"
<[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:01:58 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Hugh
Beyer
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> John Hanson <[email hidden]> wrote in
> news:[email hidden]:
>
> > On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:59:27 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> > <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >
> >>"Rankin Johnson IV" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> message
> >>news:[email hidden]...
> >>> For the last year or so, I've been doing a full-body routine
> >>> 3x/week,
> >>> with cardio at the same time. I've lost 80+ pounds, but I still
> >>> have
> >>> 20+ to go. I don't know my bodyfat percentage, but I'm 6' or a
> >>> little
> >>> more, 195-200 lbs, 33 y.o. I shoot for 2000 calories a day,
> >>> making it
> >>> on occasion, getting enough protein, and avoiding empty carbs
> >>> and
> >>> other junk.
> >>>
> >>> Until recently, my routine was squats, deadlift, shoulder press,
> >>> bench, bent-over row, assisted pullups, with a vague weekly
> >>> periodization. I've switched to Mistress Krista's intermediate
> >>> 3-day
> >>> full body. I run about two miles to the gym, lift, and run home.
> >>>
> >>> My strength gains have slowed to a crawl. I suspect that's
> >>> because
> I'm
> >>> not eating enough; losing weight is my priority. I suppose it
> >>> might
> be
> >>> overtraining, and I assume that running on my lifting days isn't
> >>> the
> >>> best way to build strength. My time is very limited, though, so
> >>> I may
> >>> be stuck with that.
> >>>
> >>> Because I'm mostly trying to lose weight, and I'm past my
> >>> beginner's
> >>> gains, lifting is primarily to avoid losing muscle while I'm
> >>> eating
> >>> below maintenence, right? In that case, am I doing more lifting
> >>> than
> I
> >>> need? I've thought about just lifting 2x a week, and doing
> >>> cardio
> with
> >>> the remaining time. I'm not all that happy with my gym, so I'm
> >>> using
> a
> >>> pay-per-entry pass rather than a monthly membership while I look
> >>> for
> >>> someplace new. As a result, it costs me less money if I go fewer
> >>> times.
> >>>
> >>> Any thoughts? Will 2x a week be enough to minimize muscle loss
> >>> until
> >>> I'm at a healthy weight? Would I be better off with a split
> >>> routine
> >>> rather than full-body, or some sort of circuit training? Is
> >>> there
> some
> >>> way to verify that my lack of strength gains is the result of
> >>> cutting
> >>> calories, rather than something I'm doing wrong and can fix?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks in advance for any advice.
> >>>
> >>> /s/ Rankin Johnson
> >>
> >>You don't mention anything about cycling. Once you're finished
> >>with
> >>beginner gains, and it sounds like you are, you need to back off
> >>periodically. You can't go forward forever without a rest. The
> >>simplest formula is to take every 4th week and cut back on your
> workouts
> >>by 50%. I like to use these weeks to do other stuff, e.g., run or
> >>take
> >>an extra swim. The idea is that you start the next four-week
> >>cycle off
> >>with relatively light weights, increase for 3 weeks to hopefully
> surpass
> >>your old maxes, then back off yet again.
> >>
> >>The concept can and should be expanded, e.g., maybe train hardest
> >>in
> the
> >>Spring and Fall and take it easy in the summer, or pick one season
> >>per
> >>year to peak for and build your schedule around that - this is
> >>common
> in
> >>competitive athletes.
> >>
> > Who does a 4 week cycle? The only ones doing something similar to
> > that are "waving" their workouts and I'll bet their light week has
> > more volume/intensity than the original poster. If anything, I'd
> > back
> > off the cardio every fourth week. Most lifting cycles are 8-16
> > weeks
> > long with 12-16 being the norm.
> >
> > Hell, I haven't taken any time off this year except for maybe 3 or
> > 4
> > workouts spread out since late last year. Of course, I have
> > different
> > goals than the OP and will sometimes consume 2000 calories in one
> > sitting:-) But still, there is NO benefit to not lifting every 4
> > weeks. Your strength will stagnate.
> >
>
> Weren't Lyle and Hobman tossing this around? Lyle, IIRC, was arguing
> for
> backing off every 4th week and Hobman was talking about
> Russian-style
> week-by-week varying of intensity and volume.

Which is much the same thing. Chernyak wrote a whole book on this,
which
basically suggest a wave program of two weeks of 'average' training,
followed by a week of 'stressed' training followed by a deload week.
Lyle
was suggesting deloading every third or fourth week.

Typically the old Soviet system would set up an arbitrary system of
designating overall load (an example is total poundage lifted per
week).
So say on average you were lifting 400 tonnes per week. On a stressed
week
you'd lift 500 tonnes. On the deload week around 275 tonnes. Then you
may
add some tonnage for the next cycle - so the average may go up to 405
tonnes.

This is greatly simplified since they waved both overall volume and
average intenstity, with overall volume going down in the competition
period and average intensity going up.

Tommy Kono was doing this sort of thing way back in the 50's and it
was
pretty common. The Russians took a lot of weightlifting ideas from
Kono,
Hepburn and Anderson in the 50's. All three lifters recognized you
could
only go hard for so long and then you have to back off. Kono made the
very
interesting observation in his book that as he aged he needed more
frequent backoff weeks. Or put another way - he couldn't train really
hard
as often. Of course he was also very highly adapted by that point and
you
could make the argument as you near genetic limits and training limits
you
have to be far more careful about waving training.

I suspect John would agree with this. As you get stronger in the
powerlifts you have to be far more careful about how often you go
hard.

Definitely! Last time I did a 4 week wave loading cycle, I got sick.
I was also cutting weight at the time which, in hindsight, I'd say was
a big NONO. I felt great during the stress week though.

My point to Steve is there is a big difference between a traditional
progressive overload cycle and a wave loading cycle. I wouldn't even
suggest to someone who is in the midst of dropping 80-100 pounds to
try a wave loading cycle nor do I believe that the OP is doing
anything remotely close to one.

Also, I wouldn't have a fairly new trainee do anything but some sort
of traditional progressive overload cycle...perhaps an HST workout
skipping the negatives at the end. When I started training again
nearly 5 years ago, it was my joints that suffered and I'm sure
negatives would have only aggravated them more.

John, exactly what do you mean by "traditional progressive overload
cycle?" All I'm suggesting is that he cut back from time to time, and
it sounds like you're saying, although I can't imagine you are, that he
should just keep increasing the weight until, well, until I don't know
what.

Traditional is one where you keep upping the intensity and dropping
the volume over a period of weeks until you are doing a heavy
single(s). At the end of that cycle, you start over with a weight
that is higher than the one you started with before. Of course, he
could just do a simple weight/reps (4-8 reps for 2-5 sets) scheme
where he kept adding weight as soon as the present weight/reps got too
easy. You could do that forever. Again, if he should cut back
anything, it should be that damned cardio, not the weights.

Steve Freides said:

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:01:58 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes) wrote
in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Hugh
Beyer
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> John Hanson <[email hidden]> wrote in
> news:[email hidden]:
>
> > On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:59:27 -0400, "Steve Freides"
> > <[email hidden]> wrote in misc.fitness.weights:
> >
> >>"Rankin Johnson IV" <[email hidden]> wrote in
> message
> >>news:[email hidden]...
> >>> For the last year or so, I've been doing a full-body routine
> >>> 3x/week,
> >>> with cardio at the same time. I've lost 80+ pounds, but I still
> >>> have
> >>> 20+ to go. I don't know my bodyfat percentage, but I'm 6' or a
> >>> little
> >>> more, 195-200 lbs, 33 y.o. I shoot for 2000 calories a day,
> >>> making it
> >>> on occasion, getting enough protein, and avoiding empty carbs
> >>> and
> >>> other junk.
> >>>
> >>> Until recently, my routine was squats, deadlift, shoulder press,
> >>> bench, bent-over row, assisted pullups, with a vague weekly
> >>> periodization. I've switched to Mistress Krista's intermediate
> >>> 3-day
> >>> full body. I run about two miles to the gym, lift, and run home.
> >>>
> >>> My strength gains have slowed to a crawl. I suspect that's
> >>> because
> I'm
> >>> not eating enough; losing weight is my priority. I suppose it
> >>> might
> be
> >>> overtraining, and I assume that running on my lifting days isn't
> >>> the
> >>> best way to build strength. My time is very limited, though, so
> >>> I may
> >>> be stuck with that.
> >>>
> >>> Because I'm mostly trying to lose weight, and I'm past my
> >>> beginner's
> >>> gains, lifting is primarily to avoid losing muscle while I'm
> >>> eating
> >>> below maintenence, right? In that case, am I doing more lifting
> >>> than
> I
> >>> need? I've thought about just lifting 2x a week, and doing
> >>> cardio
> with
> >>> the remaining time. I'm not all that happy with my gym, so I'm
> >>> using
> a
> >>> pay-per-entry pass rather than a monthly membership while I look
> >>> for
> >>> someplace new. As a result, it costs me less money if I go fewer
> >>> times.
> >>>
> >>> Any thoughts? Will 2x a week be enough to minimize muscle loss
> >>> until
> >>> I'm at a healthy weight? Would I be better off with a split
> >>> routine
> >>> rather than full-body, or some sort of circuit training? Is
> >>> there
> some
> >>> way to verify that my lack of strength gains is the result of
> >>> cutting
> >>> calories, rather than something I'm doing wrong and can fix?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks in advance for any advice.
> >>>
> >>> /s/ Rankin Johnson
> >>
> >>You don't mention anything about cycling. Once you're finished
> >>with
> >>beginner gains, and it sounds like you are, you need to back off
> >>periodically. You can't go forward forever without a rest. The
> >>simplest formula is to take every 4th week and cut back on your
> workouts
> >>by 50%. I like to use these weeks to do other stuff, e.g., run or
> >>take
> >>an extra swim. The idea is that you start the next four-week
> >>cycle off
> >>with relatively light weights, increase for 3 weeks to hopefully
> surpass
> >>your old maxes, then back off yet again.
> >>
> >>The concept can and should be expanded, e.g., maybe train hardest
> >>in
> the
> >>Spring and Fall and take it easy in the summer, or pick one season
> >>per
> >>year to peak for and build your schedule around that - this is
> >>common
> in
> >>competitive athletes.
> >>
> > Who does a 4 week cycle? The only ones doing something similar to
> > that are "waving" their workouts and I'll bet their light week has
> > more volume/intensity than the original poster. If anything, I'd
> > back
> > off the cardio every fourth week. Most lifting cycles are 8-16
> > weeks
> > long with 12-16 being the norm.
> >
> > Hell, I haven't taken any time off this year except for maybe 3 or
> > 4
> > workouts spread out since late last year. Of course, I have
> > different
> > goals than the OP and will sometimes consume 2000 calories in one
> > sitting:-) But still, there is NO benefit to not lifting every 4
> > weeks. Your strength will stagnate.
> >
>
> Weren't Lyle and Hobman tossing this around? Lyle, IIRC, was arguing
> for
> backing off every 4th week and Hobman was talking about
> Russian-style
> week-by-week varying of intensity and volume.

Which is much the same thing. Chernyak wrote a whole book on this,
which
basically suggest a wave program of two weeks of 'average' training,
followed by a week of 'stressed' training followed by a deload week.
Lyle
was suggesting deloading every third or fourth week.

Typically the old Soviet system would set up an arbitrary system of
designating overall load (an example is total poundage lifted per
week).
So say on average you were lifting 400 tonnes per week. On a stressed
week
you'd lift 500 tonnes. On the deload week around 275 tonnes. Then you
may
add some tonnage for the next cycle - so the average may go up to 405
tonnes.

This is greatly simplified since they waved both overall volume and
average intenstity, with overall volume going down in the competition
period and average intensity going up.

Tommy Kono was doing this sort of thing way back in the 50's and it
was
pretty common. The Russians took a lot of weightlifting ideas from
Kono,
Hepburn and Anderson in the 50's. All three lifters recognized you
could
only go hard for so long and then you have to back off. Kono made the
very
interesting observation in his book that as he aged he needed more
frequent backoff weeks. Or put another way - he couldn't train really
hard
as often. Of course he was also very highly adapted by that point and
you
could make the argument as you near genetic limits and training limits
you
have to be far more careful about waving training.

I suspect John would agree with this. As you get stronger in the
powerlifts you have to be far more careful about how often you go
hard.

Definitely! Last time I did a 4 week wave loading cycle, I got sick.
I was also cutting weight at the time which, in hindsight, I'd say was
a big NONO. I felt great during the stress week though.

My point to Steve is there is a big difference between a traditional
progressive overload cycle and a wave loading cycle. I wouldn't even
suggest to someone who is in the midst of dropping 80-100 pounds to
try a wave loading cycle nor do I believe that the OP is doing
anything remotely close to one.

Also, I wouldn't have a fairly new trainee do anything but some sort
of traditional progressive overload cycle...perhaps an HST workout
skipping the negatives at the end. When I started training again
nearly 5 years ago, it was my joints that suffered and I'm sure
negatives would have only aggravated them more.

John, exactly what do you mean by "traditional progressive overload
cycle?" All I'm suggesting is that he cut back from time to time, and
it sounds like you're saying, although I can't imagine you are, that he
should just keep increasing the weight until, well, until I don't know
what.

He gets stronger?

- bc

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:01:58 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes)

Quoted message said:

Tommy Kono was doing this sort of thing way back in the 50's and it was
pretty common. The Russians took a lot of weightlifting ideas from Kono,
Hepburn and Anderson in the 50's. All three lifters recognized you could
only go hard for so long and then you have to back off. Kono made the very
interesting observation in his book that as he aged he needed more
frequent backoff weeks. Or put another way - he couldn't train really hard
as often.

Now Tommy hardly trains at all. He is a regular at my gym but spends
most of his time training the Olympic lifters. I just saw him
yesterday.

RC

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:01:58 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes)

Quoted message said:

Tommy Kono was doing this sort of thing way back in the 50's and it was
pretty common. The Russians took a lot of weightlifting ideas from Kono,
Hepburn and Anderson in the 50's. All three lifters recognized you could
only go hard for so long and then you have to back off. Kono made the very
interesting observation in his book that as he aged he needed more
frequent backoff weeks. Or put another way - he couldn't train really hard
as often.

Now Tommy hardly trains at all. He is a regular at my gym but spends
most of his time training the Olympic lifters. I just saw him
yesterday.

He is supposed to be putting out a new book on coaching olympic lifters.
I'm anxiously awaiting it - his first book is a jem.

His comment related to training when he was in his 30's as opposed to
training in his 20's. I don't think he has trained seriously for over 40
years now.

--
Keith

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:24:16 -0600, Hobbes <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 17:01:58 -0600, [email hidden] (Hobbes)

Quoted message said:

Tommy Kono was doing this sort of thing way back in the 50's and it was
pretty common. The Russians took a lot of weightlifting ideas from Kono,
Hepburn and Anderson in the 50's. All three lifters recognized you could
only go hard for so long and then you have to back off. Kono made the very
interesting observation in his book that as he aged he needed more
frequent backoff weeks. Or put another way - he couldn't train really hard
as often.

Now Tommy hardly trains at all. He is a regular at my gym but spends
most of his time training the Olympic lifters. I just saw him
yesterday.

He is supposed to be putting out a new book on coaching olympic lifters.

I'll ask him about it when I see him next.

Quoted message said:

I'm anxiously awaiting it - his first book is a jem.

His comment related to training when he was in his 30's as opposed to
training in his 20's. I don't think he has trained seriously for over 40
years now.

Probably not. Looking at him now you would never have guessed he was
an Olympic champion. Aging is a [censored]:-)

RC