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critical manners

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Australia and New Zealand
Published
16 April 2007
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24 April 2007
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Zebee Johnstone
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  1. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/14/MNGB6P8R1U1.DTL&fee%20%20d=rss.news

    A bunch of bike riders pedaled through San Francisco on Friday night,
    and nobody got mad at anybody.

    The cyclists were polite. The motorists were respectful. The pedestrians
    were happy. The cops were incredulous.

    And it all comes, said ride organizer Reama Dagasan, from stopping at
    red lights, which is not at all a bad thing to do.

    "We're making a statement tonight," she said. "We believe in sharing
    and being nice."

    Dagasan is the founder of Critical Manners, which is her response to
    the controversial Critical Mass ride that features hundreds of cyclists
    riding as a pack through San Francisco on the last Friday night of the
    month. At the last Critical Mass, there were several confrontations with
    motorists, including one that ended with someone smashing the back window
    of a minivan.

    There was none of that for the Critical Manners ride. That's because
    Dagasan put her foot down. She put her foot down at Grove, McAllister,
    Turk, Sutter, Bush and California streets, and that was just during the
    first half mile. A law-abiding bike rider puts her foot down a lot.

    The ride departed at 6 p.m. from Civic Center, after a brief refresher
    course.

    "Let's review our signals!" Dagasan hollered to the group. "Right turn,
    arm up! Left turn, arm straight out! Now put your helmets on! And be
    polite!"

    Sgt. Ed Callejas, one of four cops assigned to escort the chivalrous
    cyclists, double-checked with Dagasan about the good-manners angle.
    Like any good cop, he was just a bit skeptical of human nature.

    "You're really going to follow all the rules?" he asked.

    "Yes sir," she replied. "You've never seen a bigger bunch of nerds in
    your life."

    There were exactly 16 cyclists on the ride, which is a lot less than the
    500 or so that Critical Mass usually gets. On the other hand, Dagasan
    said cheerily, it's a lot more than the four riders she got last time.

    The pack rode single file in the Polk Street bike lane, stopping at
    every light and stop sign. It made for a slow trip, and it took about
    20 minutes to get to Fisherman's Wharf. On the other hand, it was faster
    than a Muni bus, which trailed the procession and never did catch up.

    "Nothing wrong with stopping for red lights," Laura Mendoza said. "Not
    if you like staying alive."

    Greg Rodgers said he was riding to "reduce the level of antagonism between
    bicycles and cars." Geoff Schneider said he was riding because he was
    "sick of all the yelling" during Critical Mass. And Toni Truong said she
    was "trying to let motorists know that not all cyclists are belligerent."

    At Beach Street, everyone stuck his or her left hand skyward before
    turning right, to the amazement of one Yellow cabdriver who yelled
    "Way to go!" out his window.

    After cruising through the Wharf and along the Embarcadero, the pack
    crossed Justin Herman Plaza -- after dismounting and walking among the
    pedestrians. Callejas was there, too, and he made a command decision.

    "I don't think you need us," he said, and he radioed to his lieutenant
    that he was calling off the escort. Even after the cops went away, the
    cyclists kept stopping at the red lights. Market Street being Market
    Street, there was no shortage of red lights to stop at.

    "I like red lights," said Gred Anlandtbom. "Gives you a chance to stop
    and talk and look around. You know, there's nothing really wrong with
    red lights."

    E-mail Steve Rubenstein at [email hidden].

  2. Great effort they are making, however I have just recently come back from 2 weeks in San Francisco and all I can say is that not every bike rider shares their thoughts, in fact they are HIGHLY in the minority.

    I maybe saw 1 out of 10 cyclists stop at red lights, in fact almost became the victim of one myself and I was crossing on Green man as well. Gave him a good dose of Aussie slang.

    Having said that while I was over there without exception especially from my walkings around the city, Cars gave the bike riders lots of ROOM and seem to be very aware they should be looking out for cyclists and giving them lots of room.

    The Embarcardero I would liken to a REALLY long Bourke Street Mall, be a great road to ride on, however unless you are prepared to run a red light you would be stopping every 2 minutes along the entire thing and it also runs down through the Fishermans Wharf area, Geesh! Tourists, roller bladers, runners, walkers, Cyclists of all level including the Bike Hire cyclists all smattered together in a very small area. It was like Chaos theory let loose especially on the nice weekend days. But everyone was looking out for other people.

    Truely awesome city, huge single/fixed speed culture as well, some of you guys would be in heaven over there.

  3. MikeyOz said:

    Great effort they are making, however I have just recently come back from 2 weeks in San Francisco and all I can say is that not every bike rider shares their thoughts, in fact they are HIGHLY in the minority.

    I maybe saw 1 out of 10 cyclists stop at red lights, in fact almost became the victim of one myself and I was crossing on Green man as well. Gave him a good dose of Aussie slang.

    Having said that while I was over there without exception especially from my walkings around the city, Cars gave the bike riders lots of ROOM and seem to be very aware they should be looking out for cyclists and giving them lots of room.

    The Embarcardero I would liken to a REALLY long Bourke Street Mall, be a great road to ride on, however unless you are prepared to run a red light you would be stopping every 2 minutes along the entire thing and it also runs down through the Fishermans Wharf area, Geesh! Tourists, roller bladers, runners, walkers, Cyclists of all level including the Bike Hire cyclists all smattered together in a very small area. It was like Chaos theory let loose especially on the nice weekend days. But everyone was looking out for other people.

    Truely awesome city, huge single/fixed speed culture as well, some of you guys would be in heaven over there.

    Ah, the city of hills...it does rock and its not alone.

    Athens, Georgia runs a "Courteous Mass" every month, it is their approach to CM and it works well.

    Athens GA, apart from being the home of REM , the Bean Team of Jittery Joes and some good bars is a country bike town and a college town (Univesrity of Georgia) and their CM makes the right impression to the right people and some, even in the heart of Peach land and the deep South.

    A lot to be said for courtesy and common sense with a modicum of irreverence 🙂

  4. rooman said:
    MikeyOz said:

    Great effort they are making, however I have just recently come back
    from 2 weeks in San Francisco and all I can say is that not every bike
    rider shares their thoughts, in fact they are HIGHLY in the minority.

    Quoted message said:


    Athens, Georgia runs a "Courteous Mass" every month, it is their
    approach to CM and it works well.

    Athens GA, apart from being the home of REM , the Bean Team of Jittery
    Joes and some good bars is a country bike town and a college town
    (Univesrity of Georgia) and their CM makes the right impression to the
    right people and some, even in the heart of Peach land and the deep
    South.

    A lot to be said for courtesy and common sense with a modicum of
    irreverence 🙂

    I saw a doco on youtube called We Are Traffic about Critical Mass and
    how it started in San Francisco. I haven't had anything to do with CM
    but it looks like they have the right idea. Get the cyclists through the
    intersections as quickly as possible. I reckon if you had 200 riders
    waiting on the side of the road for the next 300 held back by a red
    light, there would be just as much outrage as happens now.

    Some people will never accept the right of cyclists to be on the road no
    matter how we behave. You will always be doing something to annoy
    them... riding too slow for the traffic... too fast to be safe ....
    darting in and out of parked cars .... out in the traffic lane, and so
    on.

    P

  5. In aus.bicycle on Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:24:40 +1000

    Peter said:

    but it looks like they have the right idea. Get the cyclists through the
    intersections as quickly as possible. I reckon if you had 200 riders
    waiting on the side of the road for the next 300 held back by a red
    light, there would be just as much outrage as happens now.

    Where were you when people were complaining about the Hell Ride
    running lights?

    Zebee

  6. (Peter) said:
    rooman said:
    MikeyOz said:

    Great effort they are making, however I have just recently come back
    from 2 weeks in San Francisco and all I can say is that not every bike
    rider shares their thoughts, in fact they are HIGHLY in the minority.

    Quoted message said:

    Athens, Georgia runs a "Courteous Mass" every month, it is their
    approach to CM and it works well.

    Quoted message said:

    Athens GA, apart from being the home of REM , the Bean Team of Jittery
    Joes and some good bars is a country bike town and a college town
    (Univesrity of Georgia) and their CM makes the right impression to the
    right people and some, even in the heart of Peach land and the deep
    South.

    Quoted message said:

    A lot to be said for courtesy and common sense with a modicum of
    irreverence 🙂

    I saw a doco on youtube called We Are Traffic about Critical Mass and
    how it started in San Francisco. I haven't had anything to do with CM
    but it looks like they have the right idea. Get the cyclists through the
    intersections as quickly as possible. I reckon if you had 200 riders
    waiting on the side of the road for the next 300 held back by a red
    light, there would be just as much outrage as happens now.

    And all those car drivers, held up by red lights, why don't they just
    do the same thing too?

  7. In aus.bicycle on 17 Apr 2007 15:40:26 -0700

    Bleve said:
    (Peter) said:

    rooman <[email hidden]> wrote:
    waiting on the side of the road for the next 300 held back by a red
    light, there would be just as much outrage as happens now.

    And all those car drivers, held up by red lights, why don't they just
    do the same thing too?

    Because they are traffic and traffic isn't people who all want to be
    together in large numbers, but instead individual units who obey road
    rules?

    Zebee

  8. Zebee Johnstone said:

    In aus.bicycle on Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:24:40 +1000

    Peter said:

    but it looks like they have the right idea. Get the cyclists through the
    intersections as quickly as possible. I reckon if you had 200 riders
    waiting on the side of the road for the next 300 held back by a red
    light, there would be just as much outrage as happens now.

    Where were you when people were complaining about the Hell Ride
    running lights?

    Zebee

    Do you want to concentrate on the letter of the law or safety?

    There is a slight difference in speeds between the Hell Ride and CM. About 35 km/h I suspect.

    SCotty

  9. scotty72 said:
    Zebee Johnstone said:

    Peter wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Get the cyclists
    through the intersections as quickly as possible. I reckon if you
    had 200 riders waiting on the side of the road for the next 300
    held back by a red light, there would be just as much outrage as
    happens now.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Where were you when people were complaining about the Hell Ride
    running lights?

    Quoted message said:

    Do you want to concentrate on the letter of the law or safety?
    There is a slight difference in speeds between the Hell Ride and CM.
    About 35 km/h I suspect.

    So it's OK to run red lights slowly?

    Theo

  10. quote='Theo Bekkers'scotty72 said:
    Zebee Johnstone said:

    Peter wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Get the cyclists
    through the intersections as quickly as possible. I reckon if you
    had 200 riders waiting on the side of the road for the next 300
    held back by a red light, there would be just as much outrage as
    happens now.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Where were you when people were complaining about the Hell Ride
    running lights?

    Quoted message said:

    Do you want to concentrate on the letter of the law or safety?
    There is a slight difference in speeds between the Hell Ride and CM.
    About 35 km/h I suspect.

    So it's OK to run red lights slowly?

    Theo[/QUOTE]Why is it that you go around speciously putting words into others mouths? In fact, you don't even have the guts to do that, instead you can only come up with snide, specious questions that reflect only upon your grubbiness.

    I did not say, imply or think that it is ok to run red lights slowly. I was repling to Zebee's direct comparision of Hell Riders and Critical Mass. To THE LETTER OF THE LAW (as I wrote - if you could be bothered to read) it is wrong. From a safety aspect - as the post to which Zebbe was referring - a pack travelling at 50 km/h is far more dangerous (lethal) than CM who av about 8 km/h (annoying - bruises at worst) when someone gets hit.

    When you're not trying to be a smart-[censored], you know that.

    Scotty

  11. In aus.bicycle on Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:32:19 +1000

    scotty72 said:


    Zebee Johnstone said:


    Where were you when people were complaining about the Hell Ride
    running lights?

    ZebeeDo you want to concentrate on the letter of the law or safety?

    There is a slight difference in speeds between the Hell Ride and CM.
    About 35 km/h I suspect.

    What has that got to do with running red lights?

    Zebee

  12. Zebee Johnstone said:

    In aus.bicycle on Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:32:19 +1000

    scotty72 said:


    Zebee Johnstone said:


    Where were you when people were complaining about the Hell Ride
    running lights?

    ZebeeDo you want to concentrate on the letter of the law or safety?

    There is a slight difference in speeds between the Hell Ride and CM.
    About 35 km/h I suspect.

    What has that got to do with running red lights?

    Zebee


    i wonder if pedestrians have the same arguments over jaywalking on pedestrian forums?

  13. Zebee Johnstone said:

    In aus.bicycle on Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:32:19 +1000

    scotty72 said:


    Zebee Johnstone said:


    Where were you when people were complaining about the Hell Ride
    running lights?

    ZebeeDo you want to concentrate on the letter of the law or safety?

    There is a slight difference in speeds between the Hell Ride and CM.
    About 35 km/h I suspect.

    What has that got to do with running red lights?

    Zebee

    A lot

    Think of the consequences.

    1) Running red = naughty = fine etc.

    Vs

    2) Causing a crash by:-
    Running light at 50-60km/h (potentially fatal)
    or
    Running red at 8-10 km/h (barely causes a scratch)

    Scotty

  14. "scotty72" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Zebee Johnstone said:

    In aus.bicycle on Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:32:19 +1000

    scotty72 said:


    Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
    >
    > Where were you when people were complaining about the Hell Ride
    > running lights?
    >
    > ZebeeDo you want to concentrate on the letter of the law or safety?

    There is a slight difference in speeds between the Hell Ride and CM.
    About 35 km/h I suspect.

    What has that got to do with running red lights?

    ZebeeA lot

    Think of the consequences.

    1) Running red = naughty = fine etc.

    Vs

    2) Causing a crash by:-
    Running light at 50-60km/h (potentially fatal)
    or
    Running red at 8-10 km/h (barely causes a scratch)


    to the duco of the vehicle that hits you at 50-60kph. It does put a nasty
    gouge in the psyche of the poor sod who had the temerity to just drive
    through a green light though. And diverts emergency services. Not to mention
    adding fuel to the "cyclists are [censored] who run red lights" argument.
    Personally I'm sick of being made to look like a prat by association. I
    recall Euan saying something about being abused for the cyclist that
    trundled through a red light while he waited like an adult. Committing
    serial petty dumbarsery like some hormone addled 14 year old just
    perpetuates the notion that bike are toys, not a serious mode of transport.

  15. Resound said:

    "scotty72" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Zebee Johnstone said:

    In aus.bicycle on Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:32:19 +1000

    scotty72 said:


    Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
    >
    > Where were you when people were complaining about the Hell Ride
    > running lights?
    >
    > ZebeeDo you want to concentrate on the letter of the law or safety?

    There is a slight difference in speeds between the Hell Ride and CM.
    About 35 km/h I suspect.

    What has that got to do with running red lights?

    ZebeeA lot

    Think of the consequences.

    1) Running red = naughty = fine etc.

    Vs

    2) Causing a crash by:-
    Running light at 50-60km/h (potentially fatal)
    or
    Running red at 8-10 km/h (barely causes a scratch)


    to the duco of the vehicle that hits you at 50-60kph. It does put a nasty
    gouge in the psyche of the poor sod who had the temerity to just drive
    through a green light though. And diverts emergency services. Not to mention
    adding fuel to the "cyclists are [censored] who run red lights" argument.
    Personally I'm sick of being made to look like a prat by association. I
    recall Euan saying something about being abused for the cyclist that
    trundled through a red light while he waited like an adult. Committing
    serial petty dumbarsery like some hormone addled 14 year old just
    perpetuates the notion that bike are toys, not a serious mode of transport.

    I agree, it bothers the [censored] out of me when I, looking like a fool, wait at lights whilst morons sail through them. I kinda wish they'd get hit by a govt bus.

    Still, my point is that they are going to do far more damage to themselves than anyone else (unlike a Hell Ride etc.)

    As for your point about a car screaming through an intersection at 60km/h cleaning up the said cyclist. Remember, I was referring to critical mass. Not sure how peak hour is in country towns such as Melboune but, you ain't going to get cars moving much faster than a crawl in a Sydney CBD peak hour.

    Scotty

  16. scotty72 said:

    As for your point about a car screaming through an intersection at
    60km/h cleaning up the said cyclist. Remember, I was referring to
    critical mass. Not sure how peak hour is in country towns such as
    Melboune but, you ain't going to get cars moving much faster than a
    crawl in a Sydney CBD peak hour.

    And, whatever your views about Critical Mass, they don't just sail through a
    red lght like all the renegade red light runners. If the lights are red as
    the 'mass' approaches they will stop. Once the mass is moving through a
    green light riders 'cork' the intersection to stop cars entering until all
    riders are through. This is a much more civilised method of traffic
    management to ensure the mass of riders stay together to ensure they can
    ride safely in the peak hour mess. It's not so far removed from the concept
    that vehicles should proceed until the traffic has cleared from the
    intersection (I realise that this applies to the mass riders also and CM
    does break the rules here).

    However because of the corking all cross traffic has stopped. The
    allegations of 60 kmh crashes and the diversion of emeergency services are
    spurious in relation to the typical Critical Mass ride.

    --
    Cheers
    Peter

    ~~~ ~ _@
    ~~ ~ _- \,
    ~~ (*)/ (*)

  17. PeteSig said:


    management to ensure the mass of riders stay together to ensure they can
    ride safely in the peak hour mess. It's not so far removed from the
    concept that vehicles should...

    not...

    Quoted message said:

    proceed until the traffic has cleared from the intersection

    Just to clarify that. D'oh!

    --
    Cheers
    Peter

    ~~~ ~ _@
    ~~ ~ _- \,
    ~~ (*)/ (*)

  18. "PeteSig" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    scotty72 said:

    As for your point about a car screaming through an intersection at
    60km/h cleaning up the said cyclist. Remember, I was referring to
    critical mass. Not sure how peak hour is in country towns such as
    Melboune but, you ain't going to get cars moving much faster than a
    crawl in a Sydney CBD peak hour.

    And, whatever your views about Critical Mass, they don't just sail through
    a red lght like all the renegade red light runners. If the lights are red
    as the 'mass' approaches they will stop. Once the mass is moving through a
    green light riders 'cork' the intersection to stop cars entering until all
    riders are through. This is a much more civilised method of traffic
    management to ensure the mass of riders stay together to ensure they can
    ride safely in the peak hour mess. It's not so far removed from the
    concept that vehicles should proceed until the traffic has cleared from
    the intersection (I realise that this applies to the mass riders also and
    CM does break the rules here).

    However because of the corking all cross traffic has stopped. The
    allegations of 60 kmh crashes and the diversion of emeergency services are
    spurious in relation to the typical Critical Mass ride.

    --
    Cheers
    Peter

    ~~~ ~ _@
    ~~ ~ _- \,
    ~~ (*)/ (*)

    Am I understanding this correctly? "...riders 'cork' the intersection to
    stop cars entering until all riders are through." Does this apply once the
    light has turned red? Or is corking a method of preventing drivers who have
    a green light from proceeding? Do CM riders ride through red lights?

    I'm missing something here. I thought CM was supposed to be demonstrating
    that bicycles are traffic; part of the traffic flow. Not toys, not an
    impediment, etc. How does corking demonstrate this, and how is this more
    civilised than obeying civil laws?

    As far as "[ensuring] the mass of riders stay together to ensure they can
    ride safely in the peak hour mess." is concerned, doesn't this undermine the
    idea that a lone cyclist or small group of cyclists has a right to be on the
    road? Why is there a perceived notion that a mass of riders is somehow
    safer? Research (not citing - CBF) suggests that the more cyclists are
    around the safer they are. That's a function of cycling being common and
    normal, not a function of lots of cyclists banding together. How does acting
    abnormally convey the message of normality?

    Can someone enlighten me here? Am I missing something?

    Perhaps I should rock up to the next CM ride in Perth (if there is one) and
    spectate. Anyone have any idea when there is a CM in Perth?

    Cheers,

    Frank

  19. Plodder said:

    "PeteSig" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    scotty72 said:

    As for your point about a car screaming through an intersection at
    60km/h cleaning up the said cyclist. Remember, I was referring to
    critical mass. Not sure how peak hour is in country towns such as
    Melboune but, you ain't going to get cars moving much faster than a
    crawl in a Sydney CBD peak hour.

    And, whatever your views about Critical Mass, they don't just sail through
    a red lght like all the renegade red light runners. If the lights are red
    as the 'mass' approaches they will stop. Once the mass is moving through a
    green light riders 'cork' the intersection to stop cars entering until all
    riders are through. This is a much more civilised method of traffic
    management to ensure the mass of riders stay together to ensure they can
    ride safely in the peak hour mess. It's not so far removed from the
    concept that vehicles should proceed until the traffic has cleared from
    the intersection (I realise that this applies to the mass riders also and
    CM does break the rules here).

    However because of the corking all cross traffic has stopped. The
    allegations of 60 kmh crashes and the diversion of emeergency services are
    spurious in relation to the typical Critical Mass ride.

    --
    Cheers
    Peter

    ~~~ ~ _@
    ~~ ~ _- \,
    ~~ (*)/ (*)

    Am I understanding this correctly? "...riders 'cork' the intersection to
    stop cars entering until all riders are through." Does this apply once the
    light has turned red? Or is corking a method of preventing drivers who have
    a green light from proceeding? Do CM riders ride through red lights?

    I'm missing something here. I thought CM was supposed to be demonstrating
    that bicycles are traffic; part of the traffic flow. Not toys, not an
    impediment, etc. How does corking demonstrate this, and how is this more
    civilised than obeying civil laws?

    As far as "[ensuring] the mass of riders stay together to ensure they can
    ride safely in the peak hour mess." is concerned, doesn't this undermine the
    idea that a lone cyclist or small group of cyclists has a right to be on the
    road? Why is there a perceived notion that a mass of riders is somehow
    safer? Research (not citing - CBF) suggests that the more cyclists are
    around the safer they are. That's a function of cycling being common and
    normal, not a function of lots of cyclists banding together. How does acting
    abnormally convey the message of normality?

    Can someone enlighten me here? Am I missing something?

    Perhaps I should rock up to the next CM ride in Perth (if there is one) and
    spectate. Anyone have any idea when there is a CM in Perth?

    Cheers,

    Frank


    Last friday of every month, starts over near the Art Gallery in the square there (geez, i have only been away for a year and have already forgotten what it is called...) at 5pm.

    Well at least it did a couple of years back.

    From my experience CM doesn't get a huge showing in Perth. The commuter community aren't as passionate on the whole compared to Melburns IMO.

  20. Plodder said:

    Am I understanding this correctly? "...riders 'cork' the intersection to
    stop cars entering until all riders are through." Does this apply once the
    light has turned red? Or is corking a method of preventing drivers who have
    a green light from proceeding? Do CM riders ride through red lights?

    Corking prevents cars entering (and splitting) the group from cross streets.

    Yes, it does involve the back half of the group running a red.

    However, this usually occurs under the direction (and supervision) of the police. So, if you don't run the red, you'll be disobeying a police instruction.

    The theory is that it would be far more disruptive to have the mass split then try to reform. The last thing the cops would want is for the mass to split into several mini masses that would be impossible to supervise. It is much better for everyone of the mass stays together and passes through the light together rather than taking several cycles to get through.

    Plodder said:


    I'm missing something here. I thought CM was supposed to be demonstrating
    that bicycles are traffic; part of the traffic flow. Not toys, not an
    impediment, etc. How does corking demonstrate this, and how is this more
    civilised than obeying civil laws?

    As above, the police will often direct us through the red. This is a question you should direct to them.

    Plodder said:


    As far as "[ensuring] the mass of riders stay together to ensure they can
    ride safely in the peak hour mess." is concerned, doesn't this undermine the
    idea that a lone cyclist or small group of cyclists has a right to be on the
    road? Why is there a perceived notion that a mass of riders is somehow
    safer? Research (not citing - CBF) suggests that the more cyclists are
    around the safer they are. That's a function of cycling being common and
    normal, not a function of lots of cyclists banding together. How does acting
    abnormally convey the message of normality?

    Again, this is as much the wishes of the police as it is of the mass.

    Plodder said:


    Can someone enlighten me here? Am I missing something?

    Perhaps I should rock up to the next CM ride in Perth (if there is one) and
    spectate. Anyone have any idea when there is a CM in Perth?

    Cheers,

    Frank

    I hope you do rock up, then you'll be commenting from an informed position of being there - not from the peanut gallery.

    Cheers
    Scotty

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