Criterium Power Reqmts & Goals

palewin said:

With this season drawing to a close, I'm trying to work out my power goals for next year. Most of the threads I've seen have stated targets in terms of 1-hr maintainable watts, which correlate well to TT objectives. My master's races in NJ are 80% short crits. Ric Stern's general "rule" is that for short crits, avg power rqmts are 14-18 watts/kg^.67, so in my case this works out to 224-288 watts. This corresponds well to my 3 crits over the Labor Day weekend, all of which had NPs (for me, of course) around 258 watts, and avg power at the low end of Ric's range. If I had been able to go off the front, or sprint with more power at the end, my avgs would have been higher, but essentially all I could do was follow wheels and chase down attacks, not initiate, and my finishes were all weak mid-pack, never fighting for podium spots. So, after all this "intro", how do I convert this info to goals, other than simply wanting more power? Obviously I would like to be competitive in these crits, rather than pack fodder. My 1-hr sustainable is currently around 235 watts (which converts to 3.75 w/kg, comparable as far as I can tell to the two "larger" - my 138 lbs to their 175 lbs - contributers to these threads whose numbers appear also to be in the 3.6-3.7 w/kg range). Is there a way to convert the crit power requirements to a wattage target that I can train for? Thanks all!

Last year i rode two or three crits, and the data from these was within 5 W of crits i'd ridden in previous years.

Both crits last year i averaged the same power, which is less than the recommendation i made above, ~12 W/kg^0.67! My ~1-hr TTpower was at that time 16.4 W/kg^0.67.

Both crits were ~90-mins and for 1/2/3 category. The first crit i bridged to the leading 6 or 7 riders with 5 km to go from the 3rd group (bit of a gut busting effort!), while in the second i got dropped (!) at half distance (it was apparent that 3.5 hrs of training directly prior to the race wasn't a good idea. The ride home was an even less good idea!).

For me, the first race wasn't that hard (apart from bridging to the leaders), while the second race was only hard because i was a nutter! To debate what you'd need to improve for your races will in part depend on where you're struggling in the race. This could include
1) increasing sustainable power - to make the race generally more comfortable
2) increasing MAP - for top end aerobic power, hills, and bridging efforts that are several plus minutes
3) increasing anaerobic capacity - if you have to make a do or die type effort
4) increasing peak power for the sprint at the end

Additionally, you also need to look at your positioning and how well you can hold a wheel and keep your power very low (to aid recovery).

In your case it appears that you are exceeding your 1-hr power by a long way for your NP (~110%), and as i understand it, that shouldn't be possible. I know that Andy Coggan (inventor of NP) is looking for files that exceed 105% of TTpower. I shall nudge Andy!

Cheers
ric

First, I'm not sure I can offer much useful input. This is primarily because I am not a crit man (I do them when there's not a long, hilly, hard RR or TT available) and I have never put in much focused effort on sprinting (more on sprinting later). But, that being stated up front, I would find some additional info on you and your previous training regimens helpful to be able to offer any input at all. What data do you have on your current MPs (max powers), including but not limited to MAP, 40K, 20K, 20min, 10min, 5min, 1min, 30sec? What's your max speed (on the flat, no wind)? What has been your previous off-season training regimen (hrs/wk, minutes by zone, etc.)? I assume you're forced indoors for at least most days from Dec - Mar, or at least Jan & Feb., right? What's your trainer regimen?

Although I'm not really a crit man, my sense is that there are two ways to get a podium spot: (1) break away solo or in an elite group; or (2) place high in the field sprint. For #1, My gut feel is that it takes a sustainable power premium (yours vs. the field) of 50w minimum, maybe as much as 100w. I say this in part based on RRs. I wouldn't attempt a breakaway unless I thought I had at least 50w more sustainable power than most of the riders in the field. It just takes too much power to ride off the front and if they get even modestly organized they can chase you down. Note that I am excluding team tactics such as blocking. I'm talking about riding off the front and staying away with sheer power. As you know, I trained with one guy who could just ride off the front and I'm sure he had at least 50w more sustainable power than me. The other way is to become a superb sprinter, in every sense of the word. I mean more than just having good 30sec-1min power. I mean positioning, timing, gearing, leadout strategy, the whole nine yards. Even though I don't spend much time working on my sprinting skills, I have done enough work to know that both my acceleration and top speed are very sensitive to gearing and cadence, on/off the saddle positions, and on and on. I think if I were in your shoes, I would choose one of these two main ways to get a podium spot based on my innate strengths and figure out how to optimize my performance in that area. Now, maybe because as I said at the outset that I am not really a crit man, I'm all wet in this line of discussion. If I am, no problem. I've got lots of things to think about for my own priorities -- hard, hilly RRs and 40K TTs.

ric_stern/RST said:

In your case it appears that you are exceeding your 1-hr power by a long way for your NP (~110%), and as i understand it, that shouldn't be possible. I know that Andy Coggan (inventor of NP) is looking for files that exceed 105% of TTpower. I shall nudge Andy!

Cheers
ric

Maybe I missed it, but it wasn't clear to me that the criteriums in question were ~1 h in duration. If they weren't, then that might help explain why palewin ended up with an IF of >1.05, since obviously the shorter the race, the harder you can go (although it sounds like s/he was going pretty darn hard!). Be that as it may, I'd would like to have a copy of the file(s) if possible...

palewin said:

Ric Stern's general "rule" is that for short crits, avg power rqmts are 14-18 watts/kg^.67, s

Does this mean 14-18 * weight in kilograms, raised to the power .67? This comes up far short of what I need to use to stay with the pack in a crit. In low level cat 4-5 crits at 68-72 kilograms I have found the average power for a 45 minute flat crit is somewhere between 170-190, with NP numbers from 210-240.

acoggan said:

Maybe I missed it, but it wasn't clear to me that the criteriums in question were ~1 h in duration. If they weren't, then that might help explain why palewin ended up with an IF of >1.05, since obviously the shorter the race, the harder you can go (although it sounds like s/he was going pretty darn hard!). Be that as it may, I'd would like to have a copy of the file(s) if possible...

Damn! For some reason i thought the race was an hour long, but you're correct - Palewin doesn't state the duration. Maybe my hill interval today has affected my cognitive ability!?
:eek:

Ric

ric_stern/RST said:

Palewin doesn't state the duration.

Actually, he referred to them as "80% short crits." Given that he races in the master's class, I imagine they are ~30mins.

Woofer said:

Does this mean 14-18 * weight in kilograms, raised to the power .67? This comes up far short of what I need to use to stay with the pack in a crit. In low level cat 4-5 crits at 68-72 kilograms I have found the average power for a 45 minute flat crit is somewhere between 170-190, with NP numbers from 210-240.

I think you have described the calculation correctly. By my math, at your weight range (68-72 kg), the power numbers would be ~236w-246w at the low end (14) and ~304w-316w at the high end (18). Obviously, a huge range that sounds like even the low end is above your NP numbers from actual races.

RapDaddyo said:

I think you have described the calculation correctly. By my math, at your weight range (68-72 kg), the power numbers would be ~236w-246w at the low end (14) and ~304w-316w at the high end (18). Obviously, a huge range that sounds like even the low end is above your NP numbers from actual races.

As i suggested in my post above the crits i do, i tend to always be below the 14 - 18 W/kg^0.67 suggestion. Obviously, if you sit on wheels all the time it'll likely be a low score and conversely, if you ride on the front all race it'll likely be higher. it was just a general idea to get a feel for the power requirement of a crit (rather than a hard and fast rule).

I also didn't include category ratios in that suggestion, and when i wrote that article i don't think i wasn't even aware that 5th category existed (it still doesn't in the UK), and at the time of writing had never reviewed any data from 4th cat (crits).

ric

acoggan said:

Maybe I missed it, but it wasn't clear to me that the criteriums in question were ~1 h in duration. If they weren't, then that might help explain why palewin ended up with an IF of >1.05, since obviously the shorter the race, the harder you can go (although it sounds like s/he was going pretty darn hard!). Be that as it may, I'd would like to have a copy of the file(s) if possible...

Andy: The "P" in palewin is "Pete" so I'm a 58-yr-old "he" (and many years past my once-cat3 days). You're absolutely correct, in NJ we 55+ Masters live on a diet of 10-14 mile crits, roughly 30 minute efforts, which is why my "crit NP" exceeds my 1-hr sustainable (which is an estimate based on CTS 3-mile tests, plus longer intervals - my TT efforts are so embarrassing that I've never done a real 40k TT). I'm sure that the effects of adrenaline in race situations, plus the "crit effect" of lots of short very hard efforts vs. the long sustained effort of a time-trial like test, impacts the result, although your NP formula takes that into account. Anyway, the specific file, which I'll send to you later today, covers an 11-mile 29:12 crit, just as you suspected.

To make this a single posting, I'll include some responses to both Ric and RD's earlier comments.

Looking back over the season, my average power in these age-group crits is very close to Ric's 12 w/kg ^ .67 number (probably around 12.5, I know Ric was rounding). The higher number in two crits this weekend was due to the fact that in one case we had a "field" of only 8 riders (the joys of 55+ age group races!) and I was chasing solo a lot (the 3 ex-nat'l-champions, plus one other rider, rode away from we mere mortals...), which raised the average (it became more like a TT on a crit course); in the second race I "lied" in my stats, the 233 watt avg power was only for the first 8 minutes, at which point the field split, and my 5-rider group eased back to the more-typical 200 watts (or 12-ish w/kg^.67). But what does stand out in Ric's numbers is that his 1-hr-TT power was almost 4.2 w/kg, a lot higher than my 3.75, so that does give me a target to work for. And of course his comments that I would benefit from increasing all four factors - sustainable, MAP, anaerobic, and peak power - all hold true. In my own estimate, the sustainable is the primary target, since while I'm mostly in the lead group at the finish, I've spent a high enough portion of my sustainable just being there that there isn't anything useful left to sprint with. (The truth is that we typically get 15-18 riders in our 55+ crits, and most of the time almost all of us finish together; the difference is in what we individually have left.)

Which brings me to RD's analysis. Yes, I would love to be able to break away or be a super sprinter. The problem with our age group is that almost everyone who isn't pretty competitive with each other has long since quit the sport. So I have the joy of almost always being in a field which includes at least one top-3 national age group TT rider and another top-3 national age group crit champ. I agree with your theory, it just conflicts with my reality! So working on attainables, such as sustainable power, looks like the way to go. Since you and I have compared notes "off line" what I worry about is whether the 4+ w/kg target Ric sets is truly attainable, since most of our numbers, even with some serious training, are still under 4 w/kg.

ric_stern/RST said:

As i suggested in my post above the crits i do, i tend to always be below the 14 - 18 W/kg^0.67 suggestion. Obviously, if you sit on wheels all the time it'll likely be a low score and conversely, if you ride on the front all race it'll likely be higher. it was just a general idea to get a feel for the power requirement of a crit (rather than a hard and fast rule).

I also didn't include category ratios in that suggestion, and when i wrote that article i don't think i wasn't even aware that 5th category existed (it still doesn't in the UK), and at the time of writing had never reviewed any data from 4th cat (crits).

ric

Well, anyway we have his actual data and the main competitors are going to remain the usual suspects next year, so that probably supersedes a generalized range. Which brings us back to his best training target. The way I look at it, if one wants to get on the podium then one has to identify his strengths and his realistic range of options for how to get in the top 3. But, as I said above, I don't even like the damn things (crits, that is), so I'm hardly qualified to do much more than be a creative thinker on this topic.

palewin said:

I was chasing solo a lot (the 3 ex-nat'l-champions, plus one other rider, rode away from we mere mortals...), which raised the average (it became more like a TT on a crit course); in the second race I "lied" in my stats, the 233 watt avg power was only for the first 8 minutes, at which point the field split, and my 5-rider group eased back to the more-typical 200 watts (or 12-ish w/kg^.67). ... In my own estimate, the sustainable is the primary target, since while I'm mostly in the lead group at the finish, I've spent a high enough portion of my sustainable just being there that there isn't anything useful left to sprint with. (The truth is that we typically get 15-18 riders in our 55+ crits, and most of the time almost all of us finish together; the difference is in what we individually have left.)

Which brings me to RD's analysis. Yes, I would love to be able to break away or be a super sprinter. The problem with our age group is that almost everyone who isn't pretty competitive with each other has long since quit the sport. So I have the joy of almost always being in a field which includes at least one top-3 national age group TT rider and another top-3 national age group crit champ. I agree with your theory, it just conflicts with my reality! So working on attainables, such as sustainable power, looks like the way to go. Since you and I have compared notes "off line" what I worry about is whether the 4+ w/kg target Ric sets is truly attainable, since most of our numbers, even with some serious training, are still under 4 w/kg.

I agree with you that it sounds as though your "highest payoff" training goal is to increase your sustainable power to try and be with the lead group at the finish even if 2-3 of the ex-natl-champs go off the front. That's cool, because that's my primary objective. I look forward to the great advice you're going to get on allocation of your training time in the off-season to attain this goal; I'll be paying close attention.

palewin said:

Since you and I have compared notes "off line" what I worry about is whether the 4+ w/kg target Ric sets is truly attainable, since most of our numbers, even with some serious training, are still under 4 w/kg.

Just to clarify, i don't believe i've (personally) set you a target. I did however, say that my TTpower at the time was ~ 16 W/kg^0.67 (which is ~ 4 W/kg). That wasn't a specific recommendation for you to achieve.

However, trying to increase your sustainable power and MAP will likely be the best thing to do for your race performance, as it'll leave you with more gas in the tank, or allow you to do more in the race.

Ric

ric_stern/RST said:

Just to clarify, i don't believe i've (personally) set you a target. I did however, say that my TTpower at the time was ~ 16 W/kg^0.67 (which is ~ 4 W/kg). That wasn't a specific recommendation for you to achieve.

However, trying to increase your sustainable power and MAP will likely be the best thing to do for your race performance, as it'll leave you with more gas in the tank, or allow you to do more in the race.

Ric

Ric: Well understood, and I was being loose with my own phrasing. I simply did the math with your numbers, and your 4 w/kg looked like a "good target" - with no implication of coaching advice. Look at the bright side - I could have gone totally insane, and used any of the top pros as my "exemplar", setting my goals at 6.5 w/kg! (I believe that was the number I saw in Coyle's "Armstrong's War", and after sufficient amounts of wine or beer I might be able to convince myself that the main difference between myself and LA is simply the 30-odd year age differential...) As has been said frequently by others, I greatly appreciate your contributions to our questions in this forum.

palewin said:

Ric: Well understood, and I was being loose with my own phrasing. I simply did the math with your numbers, and your 4 w/kg looked like a "good target" - with no implication of coaching advice. Look at the bright side - I could have gone totally insane, and used any of the top pros as my "exemplar", setting my goals at 6.5 w/kg! (I believe that was the number I saw in Coyle's "Armstrong's War", and after sufficient amounts of wine or beer I might be able to convince myself that the main difference between myself and LA is simply the 30-odd year age differential...) As has been said frequently by others, I greatly appreciate your contributions to our questions in this forum.

that's cool! i just wanted to clarify! 4 W/kg maybe a good goal for you, or it could be totally unachievable -- it would be impossible to say at present (as i don't know how you currently train and all your stats -- and looking at all that would constitute a fair amount of work).

Of course, you could have chosen the 6.5 W/kg... i recall that just days after Boardman set the Superman Hour Record (also ~ 6.5 W/kg) i had a go on a lab ergometer with a 20 stg SRM at the power Boardman required (we're the same height and mass). i recall lasting a good 90-secs before the body packed up!

Back to the question in hand i'd probably concentrate on improving MAP and sustainable power -- these will have the biggest effect on your performance. If i'm not mistaken (and i could well be!) aren't you presently coached? Isn't your coach helping you with these goals, it's certainly something we do at RST (goal development).

Ric

[font=Century Gothic]I will add something to think about, that should help you feel much more comfortable in the bunch at high speed.[/font]

[font=Century Gothic]Think about the inertia that created when racing & its effects on the muscles used; Most power when in the bunch is very explosive & comes from the quads as chain tension is very low at high speed, if your training with the goal of pedaling smooth then you will obviously be under training the quads in favor of muscles that are redundant in a bunch......SO when out doing your steady state training 'punch' more on the down stroke, Make an attempt to ride in groups more, Put a fixed wheel on which will force you to tap on the down stroke, motor pace if you can, Make an effort to do your hard sustained training with a Tail wind, Always climb out of the saddle if in the hills or sit & focus on punching down rather then mashing round. These are all ways to train your base condition that will also improve oxygen delivery to the quads (which should hurt in training not racing).This will leave you with these extremely powerful muscles nice & fresh at the end of a crit as they now have your undivided attention in training! It will also help you a lot when dealing with the relentless corner sprints, making attacks & bridging gaps.[/font]

[font=Century Gothic]Take a good look at any good Belgium Kermes Pro & you will see trained quads & perhaps some of the worst TT riders on the planet.[/font]
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[font=Century Gothic]To Sum up you need a good engine but there are ways to get the engine & make sure what the engine supply's goes to the correct place 😉 [/font]

Yeah I more or less agree

I think what Phil is getting at is training specifity (er spelling)

It great having a engine that can push out 350 watts for an hour and is a good base to have, but you also have to train for the event in mind be it crits or rr.

As you all know, crits are about accelerating @ 1000+ watts, braking @ 0 watts, moving up position @ 500 watts... you rarely have complete recovery.

Ive never been in a crit which sits at 300-350...but as the wattage may average this you need the ability to be able to work at these levels on a whole.

A good example is the London Westminster Crit my team just took part in, we knew the circuit was 1.6km long open and wide apart from 1 corner. With 200+ riders it would be hard, if not impossible, to get in a successful break with the speeds hovering around 50kmh.

So how do you win?
A Sprint would be ideal if you are/have a sprinter.

How do you make sure he's at the front?
Tactical Team work - Ensure no one is off the front, and your guy is in optimum position.

How do you make sure the race is together and you keep your position?
Training for the simulated situation. Physically this was training for a 1-3 lap lead-out, as well as repeated incomplete recovery intervals to bring back breaks and keep the pace high.

e.g.
1. If we were to lead with 1 lap out this meant - High Speed 55-60kmh lead out for 1 minute each... so you looking accelerating and trying to maintain 650-700 watts

2. If we were to lead with 3 lap out this meant - High Speed 50-55kmh lead out for 2 minute each... so you looking accelerating and trying to maintain 450-550 watts

Anyway - Enough Rambling - Here's the result 😎

http://www.bcf.uk.com/images/news_lead/2005/August/TOB/0_TOB_stage6_052.jpg

The same principals can be applied to training for repeated attacks, breakaways. Best thing to do would be look at your files and find your weakness, then train that!

Tuney

[font=Century Gothic]So we have Rics tips on improving the engine size, my tips on slightly altering the focus of that training to the muscle group that your really going to stress & Some great tactical tips on how to focus on actually winning a big event from tuney! [/font]

[font=Century Gothic]Identifying your strong point is probably the next part you need to look at. Can you sprint? or can you sustain an effort to make an attack worth while? How do your races play out? Are they negative with teams controlling the racing for a mass sprint? Or do they tend to split up early like the free for all mafia based racing here in Belgium?[/font]
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[font=Century Gothic] Prime money often splits up the crits here especially in Holland with money going down as far as 10th every few laps! The terrain also plays a part, US crits often have much wider roads with fast corners, this results in a very fast moving bunch thats hard to escape from alone. Tight corners string the bunch out while simultaneously slowing it down, Hard breaking forces everyone to work hard & keeps the fresh legs at the front limited. [/font]
[font=Century Gothic][/font]
[font=Century Gothic]You can tell those of us that have or had(ages ago in my case) an engine big enough to really enjoy Crits love talking about the myriad of Tactics possible. No matter what anyone says make sure you get the engine trained first as its this which is the real category separator. So get out & get that good base first before worrying much about tactics, pedaling dynamics or intervals.[/font]
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Phil Stone said:

[font=Century Gothic]So we have Rics tips on improving the engine size, my tips on slightly altering the focus of that training to the muscle group that your really going to stress & Some great tactical tips on how to focus on actually winning a big event from tuney! [/font]

[font=Century Gothic]Identifying your strong point is probably the next part you need to look at. Can you sprint? or can you sustain an effort to make an attack worth while? How do your races play out? Are they negative with teams controlling the racing for a mass sprint? Or do they tend to split up early like the free for all mafia based racing here in Belgium?[/font]
[font=Century Gothic][/font]
[font=Century Gothic] Prime money often splits up the crits here especially in Holland with money going down as far as 10th every few laps! The terrain also plays a part, US crits often have much wider roads with fast corners, this results in a very fast moving bunch thats hard to escape from alone. Tight corners string the bunch out while simultaneously slowing it down, Hard breaking forces everyone to work hard & keeps the fresh legs at the front limited. [/font]
[font=Century Gothic][/font]
[font=Century Gothic]You can tell those of us that have or had(ages ago in my case) an engine big enough to really enjoy Crits love talking about the myriad of Tactics possible. No matter what anyone says make sure you get the engine trained first as its this which is the real category separator. So get out & get that good base first before worrying much about tactics, pedaling dynamics or intervals.[/font]
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Great Post Phil... think you've nailed it there.

Other tips anyone? Stay at the front 😉

Here is an example of a training session I do. Its actually one of the CTS ones, and it has a mix of intervals within in. I do like it though as you can get back from work and just hope on the turbo for an hour... job done!

it has

7 * 2min with 1 min off @ ~110% FT
3 * 2min with 2 min off ; varying pace from 100-110% FT
5 * 1MIN on with 30sec off >110% FT

Nice mix, maybe you should do more of one type I dont know.

Tuney