Creating smarter Belgian riders

Me said:

On 1/12/06 4:36 PM, in article
[email hidden], "Bill C"

Quoted message said:

http://www.reason.com/hod/js011306.shtml

Now we know why the US keeps getting it's ass kicked in Cross.
Bill C

This should come as no surprise once you remember that public education in
the USA is a government monopoly. Don't like your public school? Tough. The
school is terrible? Tough. Your taxes fund that school regardless of whether
it's good or bad. That's why government monopolies routinely fail their
customers. Union-dominated monopolies are even worse.

Well.... There you go!!!

Don't have to tell me. We've been fighting this [censored] forever with a
couple of seriously gifted but legitimately ADHD kids who got [censored] from
the public school system.
We put a kid in this program, and he's got a brother who's even more
gifted, but has the same challenges.
http://www.jhu.edu/~gifted/
Soon we wont have any kids in anything but charter school programs,
and the level of hatred for our public schools coming from the kids is
off the scale.
Bill C

On 1/12/06 4:36 PM, in article
[email hidden], "Bill C"

Quoted message said:

http://www.reason.com/hod/js011306.shtml

Now we know why the US keeps getting it's ass kicked in Cross.
Bill C

This should come as no surprise once you remember that public education in
the USA is a government monopoly. Don't like your public school? Tough. The
school is terrible? Tough. Your taxes fund that school regardless of whether
it's good or bad. That's why government monopolies routinely fail their
customers. Union-dominated monopolies are even worse.

Well.... There you go!!!

Bill C said:

http://www.reason.com/hod/js011306.shtml

Now we know why the US keeps getting it's ass kicked in Cross.
Bill C

Teaching intelligent design in science classes should help close the gap.

Me said:

On 1/12/06 4:36 PM, in article

This should come as no surprise once you remember that public education in
the USA is a government monopoly. Don't like your public school? Tough. The
school is terrible? Tough. Your taxes fund that school regardless of whether
it's good or bad. That's why government monopolies routinely fail their
customers. Union-dominated monopolies are even worse.

Well.... There you go!!!

It's still a public system in Belgium, isn't it? Maybe just run a bit
better.

Jeff

The death of the public school system would mean exactly the same thing it
did before one existed: the rich get educated, and the poor don't.

Wanna get rid of unions? Think about how it was before they existed. Think
those were the good old days? Go to your office all day on Satuday and sit
there for 12 hours without lunch and think again.

Don't want goverment monopolies on businesses? Deregulate all utilities and
see what happens.

My point in this is simply that pure, unbridled capitalist theory is as
stupid as the concept of communism. Education is a societal, not an
economic issue. Beware of trying to take macroeconomic theory too far.

Philip W. Moore said:

The death of the public school system would mean exactly the same thing it
did before one existed: the rich get educated, and the poor don't.

Wanna get rid of unions? Think about how it was before they existed. Think
those were the good old days? Go to your office all day on Satuday and sit
there for 12 hours without lunch and think again.

Don't want goverment monopolies on businesses? Deregulate all utilities and
see what happens.

My point in this is simply that pure, unbridled capitalist theory is as
stupid as the concept of communism. Education is a societal, not an
economic issue. Beware of trying to take macroeconomic theory too far.

I agree with you about the need for unions in some cases, my family
came out of the Pennsylvania coal mines. Check out the history there
for a quick primer on nasty businesses and the need for a union to
literally battle them.
There's got to be a happy medium with the teachers unions. Lets face
it pissing large amounts of money down the hole hasn't helped the
situation much, if at all.
Every other job has serious practical standards that have to be met,
and performance based reviews on how well you're doing your job,
unfortunately the NEA has done everything it can to block these types
of things from being applied to teachers, that's [censored]. They need to
be accountable and they aren't.
It's not just the teachers though either. Take the curriculum,
please...Anyway if you take a hard look at it in most places they've
gotten added so much extra [censored] to that the basics such as math
principles, basic writing and grammar, science, and
civics/history/social studies get a lot less time and emphasis than
they used to here.
We had American friends kids in the German school system while ours
were in the DOD schools and the difference between what was being
taught and expected was incredible. Night and day. Between "social
promotion", emphasis on self esteem rather than learning, disdain for
grading(they tried to remove all grading here) because it's
judgemental, teaching to the lowest common denominator etc... it's a
mess.
The other big problem I see is that we are such a huge diverse country
with so many groups who value education differently within their
cultures that it's incredibly hard to get good results over the whole
population, especially when some have an almost total disregard for
what the schools teach. This also ties in with the problem of so many
brutally unstable family environments and lack of parenting from a lot
of people.
The cultural and family parts aren't anything that can be fixed
quickly. The testing, review, and quality control of teachers is
something that we could, and should address if the NEA would allow it.
We can also address the curriculum and how money gets spent. Especially
up until HS they should be pounding the basics and not much else IMO,
but at least here, they are doing all kinds of other [censored], and spending
money on it that could be used to pay good teachers better. But even
the best teachers can't do much without students who want to learn and
parents being vaguely available and responsible.
The idea that everyone has to be on a college track and should go to
college is [censored] too. There are tons of kids who would do better and be
happier if there was more vocational stuff available and more
internships/apprenticeships for them like there are in Europe. Instead
of encouraging and helping these kids to be a success at a job they
make anything but going to college look like failure and discourage it.
The idea that everyone is equally suited for higher education is
ridiculous at best. They are trying to pound square pegs into round
holes and lowering the standards to make it work, which is what's
happening, is killing us. There's absolutely no value attached to being
a good tradesman or excellent non-professional in the system here other
than at my Voc. HS. If you chose to do that, you are looked down on big
time, and if your good at what you do you get questions about why you
are doing things with your hands and back instead of something else. If
you look at the MCAS article theyare telling these kids that you can't
make a good living without going to college, that's BS. Skilled
tradesmen are doing just fine and there's a shortage of them due to
this [censored] from the schools. College is a great thing if it's for you,
but it isn't for everyone.
IMO there is just as much value in a good mechanic or carpenter as
there is in a doctor or lawyer, but that's not what kids are getting
from the system today.

http://www.ccsf.edu/Events_Pubs/Guardsman/f991208/uwire02.shtml
http://www.act.org/news/releases/2003/5-05-03.html
This sums up the attitude pretty well.
http://tinyurl.com/8y5lg

The MCAS was supposed to be a test of basic skills needed to function
at a job, not to test preparedness for college, but they are so focused
on forcing everyone into a single path almost noone is getting the best
education they could. Another piece of stupidity was to do away with
ability groupings, dump everyone together and teach to the slowest kids
in the the class because grouping stigmatised the kids. It's pretty
obvious that special education kids and gifted kids both need extra
help and attention, but not the same kind, unfortunately they are being
thrown in together and neither is getting what they need.
And I can't find the story now but it was in about september, but
there was a new study showing that basic reading comprehension in
freshmen in the region was way down, and they were just baffled about
it. I'm not.
Bill C

Robert Chung said:

Bill C said:

http://www.reason.com/hod/js011306.shtml

Now we know why the US keeps getting it's ass kicked in Cross.
Bill C

Teaching intelligent design in science classes should help close the gap.

Yep. When I was in the Air Force I actually had a supervisor in the
communications center who considered the equipment failing to be "God's
Will and there's a reason for it" the only way we could get her to let
us call maintenance is to argue that "God helps those who help
themselves". She was "interesting" to deal with since God was literally
controlling everything in her mind and we had to be careful not to
oppose his will.
Bill C

Bill C said:

http://www.reason.com/hod/js011306.shtml

Now we know why the US keeps getting it's ass kicked in Cross.
Bill C

Bill, this article has nothing to do with cycling, and you're lame
attempt to make the association is a thinly disguised troll.
You're as bad or worse than the highracer guy and the Kunich stalker -
at least their trolls are obvious from the subject line. And the fact
that you and Kunich continue to respond to those cross-posted trolls
just contributes to the already precipitous decline of this ng.
Please try and keep on topic, stop trolling and stop feeding the
trolls.

Thanks

yeahyeah said:

Bill C said:

http://www.reason.com/hod/js011306.shtml

Now we know why the US keeps getting it's ass kicked in Cross.
Bill C

Bill, this article has nothing to do with cycling, and you're lame
attempt to make the association is a thinly disguised troll.
You're as bad or worse than the highracer guy and the Kunich stalker -
at least their trolls are obvious from the subject line. And the fact
that you and Kunich continue to respond to those cross-posted trolls
just contributes to the already precipitous decline of this ng.
Please try and keep on topic, stop trolling and stop feeding the
trolls.

Thanks

Ok so back to doping and Lance huh? Other than the racing in Australia
and Cross Worlds how much activity is there to talk about that's
directly related to cycling that we haven't beaten to death?
Please feel free to initiate these discussions, I'd be happy to talk
about something directly related to cycling. I made a batch of
suggestions in another thread and Casey contributed a little on the
Tour of California but there's still not a hell of a lot to talk about
currently.
One of the cool things that at least Germany does is has Sports high
schools with cycling being one of the majors. They are like a
vocational school for sports. I think they'd be a great idea here and
maybe get a lot of kids who really aren't into school at least
participating rather than taking up space.
The first word in the name of this group is recreation. Some of us get
recreation from discussing things with other cycling types that aren't
always directly related to racing. Don't like it, don't participate in
those threads or just plonk me, no big deal.
Bill C

On 13-01-2006 07:37 'Jeff Jones said:

It's still a public system in Belgium, isn't it? Maybe just run a bit
better.

Partly: there are public schools and there are private schools. All schools
get money per student. Public schools get more money but are worse quality
in general. Private schools have to compete and give better education.
Schools are basically free except the fact that you have to buy books and
gear in private schools whereas you get them for free in public schools.
So parents have dilemma: Education versus money although we're not speaking
big money, maybe 500 dollars a year difference.

Bill C said:

Ok so back to doping and Lance huh? Other than the racing in Australia
and Cross Worlds how much activity is there to talk about that's
directly related to cycling that we haven't beaten to death?

Dumbass -

I would like to know what Jonathan Page had for breakfast.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Philip W. Moore said:

My point in this is simply that pure, unbridled capitalist theory is as
stupid as the concept of communism. Education is a societal, not an
economic issue. Beware of trying to take macroeconomic theory too far.

Dumbass -

The "free market" Belgain school system isn't pure unbridled capitalism
since the government is paying.

Schools simply get funded based upon the number of students they
attract. You can't make the argument that the US system is better. Look
at the results.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Bill C said:

Ok so back to doping and Lance huh? Other than the racing in Australia
and Cross Worlds how much activity is there to talk about that's
directly related to cycling that we haven't beaten to death?

Dumbass -

I would like to know what Jonathan Page had for breakfast.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

And who had Page for lunch?

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

On 1/13/06 12:42 PM, in article
[email hidden], "Kurgan Gringioni"

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

Ok so back to doping and Lance huh? Other than the racing in Australia
and Cross Worlds how much activity is there to talk about that's
directly related to cycling that we haven't beaten to death?

Dumbass -

I would like to know what Jonathan Page had for breakfast.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

YOU!!!

Koen De Poorter said:

On 13-01-2006 07:37 'Jeff Jones said:

It's still a public system in Belgium, isn't it? Maybe just run a bit
better.

Partly: there are public schools and there are private schools. All schools
get money per student. Public schools get more money but are worse quality
in general. Private schools have to compete and give better education.
Schools are basically free except the fact that you have to buy books and
gear in private schools whereas you get them for free in public schools.
So parents have dilemma: Education versus money although we're not speaking
big money, maybe 500 dollars a year difference.

That's essentially the same system as in Australia, except it costs you
a lot more to go to a private school, with only a marginal improvement
in "education". But yes, the government gives money to both public and
private schools, based on student numbers I think. Not sure what school
fees are these days either.

My (public) school was one of the rare ones that had cycling as an
option for sport, but I wasn't interested in it then so I didn't do it.

Jeff

On 13 Jan 2006 05:20:17 -0800, "Bill C" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Philip W. Moore said:

The death of the public school system would mean exactly the same thing it
did before one existed: the rich get educated, and the poor don't.

Wanna get rid of unions? Think about how it was before they existed. Think
those were the good old days? Go to your office all day on Satuday and sit
there for 12 hours without lunch and think again.

Don't want goverment monopolies on businesses? Deregulate all utilities and
see what happens.

My point in this is simply that pure, unbridled capitalist theory is as
stupid as the concept of communism. Education is a societal, not an
economic issue. Beware of trying to take macroeconomic theory too far.

I agree with you about the need for unions in some cases, my family
came out of the Pennsylvania coal mines. Check out the history there
for a quick primer on nasty businesses and the need for a union to
literally battle them.
There's got to be a happy medium with the teachers unions.

Yeah. But that Stossel article is surely cherryp-picking the most
serious anti-union facts -- he's a hack with a strong agenda. Sure,
there are undoubtedly really egregious problem teachers in the NYC
schools, and others that could do better. But he's pointing to one of
many problems as the key thing and it's over the top.

JT

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In article
<[email hidden]>,

Bill C said:

yeahyeah said:

Bill C said:

http://www.reason.com/hod/js011306.shtml

Now we know why the US keeps getting it's ass kicked in Cross.
Bill C

Bill, this article has nothing to do with cycling, and you're lame
attempt to make the association is a thinly disguised troll.
You're as bad or worse than the highracer guy and the Kunich stalker -
at least their trolls are obvious from the subject line. And the fact
that you and Kunich continue to respond to those cross-posted trolls
just contributes to the already precipitous decline of this ng.
Please try and keep on topic, stop trolling and stop feeding the
trolls.

Thanks

Ok so back to doping and Lance huh?

Yes, and while we are slagging each other, take a few
hours to think about what he said.

[...]

--
Michael Press

Bill C said:

There's got to be a happy medium with the teachers unions. Lets face
it pissing large amounts of money down the hole hasn't helped the
situation much, if at all.
Every other job has serious practical standards that have to be met,
and performance based reviews on how well you're doing your job,
unfortunately the NEA has done everything it can to block these types
of things from being applied to teachers, that's [censored]. They need to
be accountable and they aren't.
It's not just the teachers though either. Take the curriculum,
please...

As long as you or we are going to ramble on your or our
favorite off topic political hobbyhorses, you might be interested
to read this column (Heather, I think you would also find this
interesting):

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/?030707ta_talk_surowiecki

Basically, the point is that in labor-intensive industries, like
education, productivity doesn't go up very fast. Technology and
automation let a stockbroker trade more stocks or a factory worker
bolt more widgets together in a day, but they can't let a teacher
teach twice as many kids per day. (Put >30 kids in a classroom
and watch the chaos.) But in an economy where productivity is
increasing stockbrokers' and factory workers' profits or wages,
you have to pay teachers more or eventually they'll all do something
else. So in the end the cost of education - and other labor intensive
industries - goes up for reasons that are difficult to see.

Teachers are not in general actually overpaid. And don't forget that
teachers do not have supervisory jobs. If you want to see the people
who really are never held to account for results, look at their bosses,
school administrators. Also look at their bosses: that would be
yourself. You get to vote for the school board, right? The problem
in the US is that people and the politicians they elect don't really
care enough about education to keep the pressure on. And the people
who need the help the most - kids in poor areas - have parents who
aren't experienced at how to hold politicians and school
administrators' feet to the fire.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Technology and

Quoted message said:

automation let a stockbroker trade more stocks or a factory worker
bolt more widgets together in a day, but they can't let a teacher
teach twice as many kids per day. (Put >30 kids in a classroom
and watch the chaos.)

Kids aren't widgets, butthole.